Rules question: HTH Limitation

[quozaxx]

I've always wondered about something. In the Hand-to-Hand Attack Power, you get the mandatory HTH Attack Limitation (-1/2). This makes sense. You have to stay within HTH range and can't hit someone far away.

 

But HTH Killing attacks don't have this automatic Limitation. Why is that?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

*cracks knuckles*

 

Rather ask why KA Ranged and KA HtH cost the same and Blast and HtH Attack don't. The answer is that STR is too cheap.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I've always wondered about something. In the Hand-to-Hand Attack Power' date=' you get the mandatory HTH Attack Limitation (-1/2). This makes sense. You have to stay within HTH range and can't hit someone far away.[/quote']

 

But that's not what the Hand-to-Hand Attack Limitation means, really. It essentially means, "Linked to STR." You're not getting a Limitation simply because the Power doesn't work at range... you're getting a Limitation because HA functions only as an add-on to STR; never by itself. If you can't apply STR, you can't use HA.

 

HKA doesn't work that way. You could use HKA without adding any STR, and (depending on SFX) could potentially use an HKA even if circumstances (such as being tied up) prevent you from using STR.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

The power is basically a shorthand for 'Extra STR, only to Strike'. In pre-5e, the limitation was pre-baked in, resulting in 1d6 of HA being 3 points ... but apparently some people used Active Point caps for attacks rather than Damage Class caps, so they changed it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

But what is odd though is that for heroic games, you can put ranged advatage on a hand attack, but not in a superheroic game.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Because the Hero System has gotten too complicated for it's own good. Hand Attack and Blast should cost the same. Hand Attack has the advantage of adding STR to the damage, and Blast has the advantage of being Ranged. Same advantages as Hand Killing Attack and Ranged Killing Attack. That's how I've always done it. That's how I'll always do it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Because the Hero System has gotten too complicated for it's own good. Hand Attack and Blast should cost the same. Hand Attack has the advantage of adding STR to the damage' date=' and Blast has the advantage of being Ranged. Same advantages as Hand Killing Attack and Ranged Killing Attack. That's how I've always done it. That's how I'll always do it.[/quote']

 

But then Hand Attack also costs the same as Strength, and it would be better to buy STR and limit it...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

But then Hand Attack also costs the same as Strength' date=' and it would be better to buy STR and limit it...[/quote']

 

I just don't allow STR Only to cause damage. That's what Hand Attack is for. I just treat it like when STR was not allowed to be bought Ranged, because that's exactly what Telekinesis was.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Isn't this a rehash of a thread you started 3 months ago?

Hand-to-Hand Limitation Question

 

And here's a post from a 2009 thread on a similar subject as well:

I forget where I first saw it but someone on the board once gave an alternative breakdown of Normal Damage methods for Hero very similar to the 10 point 'base killing attack' (which then assigned Ranged or STR Adds Damage).

 

For Normal Damage, this base cost would be ~ 3 points per d6 and it then gets the following potential (+1/2) Advantages: Can be used as STR (current STR), Ranged (current EB), Advantages stack with STR* (current HA) and the combo of Can be used as STR & Ranged (current TK).

 

*This is pure speculation on my part but it's the best I can come up with to explain the minimum 5 active cost per d6 for this version.

 

Note, if this was RAW then you end up with the potential to build a Normal Attack with Advantages stack w/STR & Ranged for ~ 6-7 points per d6 which is just too effect for both the real as well as active points.

[griffinman01]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I was always under the impression that the -1/2 HTH limitation was because you were essentially buying 5 points of strength but not getting any of the figured characteristics, throw modifiers, or STR rolls out of it. It's the same as if you bought 5 STR with the limitation "Only to add to HTH damage" like what CrosshairCollie said.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

If STR, only to do damage is -1/2 then STR, doesn't add damage would be -1 1/2 and would add to throwing distance, grabs, and lifting. I simply don't agree with that cost breakdown.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

If STR' date=' only to do damage is -1/2 then STR, doesn't add damage would be -1 1/2 and would add to throwing distance, grabs, and lifting. I simply don't agree with that cost breakdown.[/quote']

 

I can agree with that. Fortunately, it's an easy fix ... just buy STR with whatever limitation you feel is appropriate.

[psyber624]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Personally I disagree. limitations don't really add up like that all the time. Some do, yes. There are plenty of examples in the books of limitations where a power/ability is broken down into parts and when totalled up all the parts add to a total -2 disadvantage, but there is nothing in the rules that states that has to happen. Honestly, outside of HA I would rule that Str only to do damage is worth a bit less than 1/2 for someone planning on building a melee character (who will use it for this more than anything else most likely.) (-1/2) sounds about right for blasters and such, but why would they buy str only to do damage?

 

The -1/2 is to keep it inline with the old cost of 3 pts per level, while still keeping the active point costs the same (which was one of the flaws with the old HA). Not to mention that it makes the math simpler with adding damage and such, and keeps the cost of advantages in line with what they should be (3 pts with (+1) is cheaper than 5 pts with (+1) and (-1/2))

 

HKA is a different beast altogether. It doesn't get the disadvantage because of the fact that it doesn't get ranged as part of its cost. Note that you CANNOT apply ranged to HA's. Therefore there was no need to make HKA's cheaper. You could easily say that an HKA has to be bought as a RKA with (STR Adds to damage: +1/2) and (No Range: -1/2), instead they just removed those requirements for HKA's (as they nearly cancel each other out in the end) and again this makes the math, and adding damage, a lot easier.

[griffinman01]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

If STR' date=' only to do damage is -1/2 then STR, doesn't add damage would be -1 1/2 and would add to throwing distance, grabs, and lifting. I simply don't agree with that cost breakdown.[/quote']

 

I've seen STR purchased exactly like that in source books.

 

Example: Ultimate Brick PG 56:

 

Distance Throw: +40 Str (40 Active Points) Only to determine throw distance (-2). Real Cost: 13 points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Fixing the HKA/RKA dichotomy is easy. Get rid of them. One power - Killing Attack - which is ranged by default. You want it no range? That's a limitation - just like every other attack power that is ranged by default. You want it augmented by STR? Buy extra dice of Killing Attack, limited to Lock Out an equal AP amount of STR.

 

HKA is one of the few remaining abilities where you don't get what you pay for. 1d6 HKA is markedly different if you have 5 STR or 75 STR, but costs 15 points regardless.

 

By the way, what, under RAW, prevents you combining your HKA Claws with a full STR Punch as a Multiple Power Attack?

[griffinman01]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

HKA is one of the few remaining abilities where you don't get what you pay for. 1d6 HKA is markedly different if you have 5 STR or 75 STR, but costs 15 points regardless.

 

Actually, it's not that big of a difference since you could only double the HKA damage with your strength. A 1d6 HKA doesn't see any bonus after 15 Str since you could only boost it to 2D6 (that way you can't cut a guy in half with a pocket knife). In order to see a marked difference you'd probably have to spend a lot more so you could see the full advantage of your massive strength.

 

I personally don't have a problem with the cost difference since I figure the -1/2 No range limitation would be offset by a +1/2 May Add Str to this attack (I'm assuming this cost as the reverse of not being able to add strength to the attack). You do more damage with the HKAs (assuming you have a good amount of strength to put behind it) but the RKA obviously gives you the range (unless you buy the Ranged limitation on your HKA (+1/2) to simulate something like a javelin or spear).

 

I haven't run into any issues where I felt that the cost of these abilities unbalanced the game.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Actually' date=' it's not that big of a difference since you could only double the HKA damage with your strength. A 1d6 HKA doesn't see any bonus after 15 Str since you could only boost it to 2D6 (that way you can't cut a guy in half with a pocket knife). In order to see a marked difference you'd probably have to spend a lot more so you could see the full advantage of your massive strength.I personally don't have a problem with the cost difference since I figure the -1/2 No range limitation would be offset by a +1/2 May Add Str to this attack (I'm assuming this cost as the reverse of not being able to add strength to the attack). You do more damage with the HKAs (assuming you have a good amount of strength to put behind it) but the RKA obviously gives you the range (unless you buy the Ranged limitation on your HKA (+1/2) to simulate something like a javelin or spear).I haven't run into any issues where I felt that the cost of these abilities unbalanced the game.[/quote']Wrong. There is no double limit in 6E (outside of things with the "Real Weapon" Limitation). Further more, even with the doubling rule it was still off in 5E and previous. Someone with 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA got more than someone with 10, 20, or even 25 STR and the same Killing Attack.

[griffinman01]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I'm running things off of 5E since that's the book that I have so I had no idea the rule had changed in 6E. I guess it makes sense that only real weapons would have that limitation but it does seem like an unbalance with that in mind (considering that advantaged HTHs have the same double limit and that's what I consider HKAs - a HTH attack with AVLD). Obviously Str should be a component to it (I would think someone who could barely lift a sword would do less damage with it than Conan the Barbarian) but there should be a limit to it because even natural weapons (teeth and claws) would break with enough force. Now that I know how 6E handles this I agree that it seems an unbalance.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I'm running things off of 5E since that's the book that I have so I had no idea the rule had changed in 6E. I guess it makes sense that only real weapons would have that limitation but it does seem like an unbalance with that in mind (considering that advantaged HTHs have the same double limit and that's what I consider HKAs - a HTH attack with AVLD).

I don't recall a doubling limit for Advantaged HtH attacks in 5E. Could you give me a page site for that one?

 

Obviously Str should be a component to it (I would think someone who could barely lift a sword would do less damage with it than Conan the Barbarian) but there should be a limit to it because even natural weapons (teeth and claws) would break with enough force. Now that I know how 6E handles this I agree that it seems an unbalance.

 

Not all that obvious at all actually. In a Heroic level game weapons have STR Min and Real Weapon Limits to handle "someone who could barely lift a sword". More importantly, STR being tied to damage might seem "common sense", but it is an orphan mechanic and in light of the toolbox that HERO System is and the fact that it clashes with several of the system's core tenets (such as "you get what you pay for"), having one Power that gets a bonus from a Characteristic when not a single other Power has a mechanic that works like that (not counting HtH as that is considered "Limited STR", even if the price is rediculously off to actually be Limited STR) is not an "obvious" or even logical way for the Power to work.

[psyber624]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

The only issue i see with this is that you can't normally use STR to do killing damage. If the rules allowed that, then HKA's work JUST like HA'a, they just allow you to add damage to what you can do with your strength. The imbalance in pricing structures comes from the fact that your first 15 points from HKA allow your strength to do Killing Damage. I don't really see this as imbalancing tho, as the damage is still relative to what you can do in Normal damage with STR. I agree that (as with SOOOO many powers in HERO) it is open to abuse (someone buying only 1d6 of HKA to allow them to use their full strength as killing damage for instance). And to note, the "doubling damage rule" is a suggested guideline for GM's to use when evaluating characters. [6e2 99]. It may only be a hard and fast RAW for Real Weapon limitations, but is recommended as a way to prevent abusive power designs for ANY attack.

[Greywind]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I don't recall a doubling limit for Advantaged HtH attacks in 5E. Could you give me a page site for that one?

5thR pg 185

Hand-To-Hand Attack damage counts as base

damage done by STR for purposes of the “doubling

damage” rule (page 405). For example, a character

with STR 20 and HA +2d6 does “base damage” of

6d6, which he can double to 12d6 through various

means. However, a character in a Heroic campaign

with a weapon defi ned as an HA still cannot more

than double the weapon’s damage by applying STR.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Thanks Greywind, but that says nothing about "Advantaged HtHs". The doubling limit mentioned in what you quoted is about HtHs defined as weapons in Heroic games only, and actually says that, aside from weapons in heroic games, HtH counts as part of the base damage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Actually' date=' it's not that big of a difference since you could only double the HKA damage with your strength. A 1d6 HKA doesn't see any bonus after 15 Str since you could only boost it to 2D6 (that way you can't cut a guy in half with a pocket knife). In order to see a marked difference you'd probably have to spend a lot more so you could see the full advantage of your massive strength.[/quote']

 

Wrong. There is no double limit in 6E (outside of things with the "Real Weapon" Limitation). Further more' date=' even with the doubling rule it was still off in 5E and previous. Someone with 30 STR and a 2d6 HKA got more than someone with 10, 20, or even 25 STR and the same Killing Attack.[/quote']

 

I personally don't have a problem with the cost difference since I figure the -1/2 No range limitation would be offset by a +1/2 May Add Str to this attack (I'm assuming this cost as the reverse of not being able to add strength to the attack). You do more damage with the HKAs (assuming you have a good amount of strength to put behind it) but the RKA obviously gives you the range (unless you buy the Ranged limitation on your HKA (+1/2) to simulate something like a javelin or spear).

 

So, would you also allow someone to buy a Flash, Blast, or Drain with May Add STR for +1/2?

 

Let's also take a simple example. Bob wants his character to have a 6d6 Killing attack with his Claws. He doesn't envision the character being overly muscular, so let's give him a 15 STR. Bob can buy a 5d6 HKA for 75 points, and add 1d6 from STR. Or he can buy a 6d6 HKA with STR does not Add, or a 6d6 RKA, no Range, for 60 points. That means he pays 15 points less for the exact same mechanical result. Fair?

 

Or he could buy the character's STR up to 45 for 30 points, buy a 3d6 HKA for 45, and spend the exact same amount, getting all the benefits of a +30 STR for free. Again, is that fair?

 

None of these examples bump against the doubling rule.

[griffinman01]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

Thanks Greywind' date=' but that says nothing about "Advantaged HtHs". The doubling limit mentioned in what you quoted is about HtHs defined as weapons in Heroic games only, and actually says that, aside from weapons in heroic games, HtH counts as part of the base damage.[/quote']

 

It's on page 408:

 

STR And Advantaged HAs

A character who has a Power Advantage on an

HA (or other Normal Damage attack to which he

adds STR damage) does not also have to buy that

Advantage for his STR, and may apply the Advan-

tage to the dice of damage provided/added by STR,

if either of these situations exists:

—the character only uses his STR up to the

unmodifi ed Active Point value of the HA

—the unmodifi ed Active Point value of the

HA equals or exceeds the character’s STR.

“Unmodifi ed” means the Active Points with-

out applying any Advantages. For example, an

HA +4d6, Armor Piercing normally has 30 Active

Points, but its unmodifi ed Active Points are only 20.

If neither of the circumstances described

above applies — in other words, if the unmodifi ed

Active Points in the HA are less than the character’s

STR, or the character uses more STR than the

unmodifi ed Active Points in the HA — then the

character cannot use the HA dice (since the rules

don’t permit a character to use a Power without

using the Advantages bought for it [page 246] and

HA dice can only add to STR damage, not be used

on their own [page 184]).

 

Technically it's not the doubling rule but it states that you can't put more strength into an advantaged HTH than the active points (which would essentially limit it to double the HTH)

 

@Hugh Neilson

I don't have any experience dealing with Killing attacks that large since I don't allow my players to purchase them in those amounts (mostly because I'd like my villains to live more than a phase). It all depends on the situation and what you deem to be fair as a GM. If you think it's unfair then you alter the cost as you see fit. Against the rules or not it's up to the GM's discretion on what to allow and what will upset the game balance. In lower numbers (such as a 2d6 HKA and 30 Str for a 4D6 HKA) I look at the fact that they spent 50 points on the HTH version and, when compared to a 4D6 RKA for 60 points, the added 10 points to make it ranged seems like a fair trade. In my experience I've never had an issue where this has been abusive or unbalancing.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rules question: HTH Limitation

 

I'm still not seeing the answer to my question "So, would you also allow someone to buy a Flash, Blast, or Drain with May Add STR for +1/2?" If not, why is KA the sole exception, where we should allow a +1/2 advantage to boost the attack with STR, rather than requiring a different attack be paid for separately.

 

It's really not that hard to change the example for different levels of attack. Bob wants his character to have a 4d6 Killing attack with his Claws. He doesn't envision the character being overly muscular, so let's give him a 15 STR. Bob can buy a 3d6 HKA for 45 points, and add 1d6 from STR. Or he can buy a 4d6 HKA with STR does not Add, or a 4d6 RKA, no Range, for 40 points. That means he pays 5 points less for the exact same mechanical result. Fair?

 

Or he could buy the character's STR up to 30 for 15 points, buy a 2d6 HKA for 30, and spend the exact same amount, getting all the benefits of a +15 STR for free. Again, is that fair?

 

The bottom line is that the ability to add STR to a HKA makes it sub-optimal, at best, to buy the HKA directly. With the doubling rule, the character should always derive half of his KA dice from STR adds - he saves no points by foregoing the additional benefits of a higher STR. Moving to 6e, with no doubling rule, and you should just buy 1 DC of HKA for 5 points, and get the rest from STR. This is even better, since your 60 STR Brick with a 1 pip HKA can now Multiple Power Attack a 12d6 Punch with a 4d6+1 HKA - and all it cost to add that KA to the Punch is 5 points.

 

This brings us back to the 1st Ed days, where most high STR Enemies characters had a 1d6 HKA (since you could not buy DC's in 5 point increments) fully augmented by their STR. The Monster was the saddest example of this - from 1e (5dk HKA, being 1d6 + 60 STR, dropped to 2d6 with the doubling rule - no one thought to modify the build to keep the KA as his main attack).