Limitations that don't make sense

[quozaxx]

I wanted to start a discussion on Limitations that I'm having troubles wrapping my head around - concept-wise

 

The first one I have, is not too long ago I had two characters make new characters. Each one had Resistant Protection.

 

One had the Always on Limitation. Why would that be a Limitation on one and not the other? As far as I can tell, it's no different from the Power that ISN'T always on. Since Resistant Protection (Skin in both matters) is technically always on anyways.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

Medical procedures? What if 'Resisto-Skin' developed appendicitis, and he has Secret Identity? How does he explain to the surgeon that scalpels won't work on him and not have the surgeon start asking him awkward questions...

 

"Mr. Fletcher, why would I need to request a special adamantium scalpel for your procedure?"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

A character with Resistant Protection without the Always On Limitation can turn the ability off. The primary circumstance in which this is useful is when protecting a Secret Identity. So the value of Always On depends on the frequency of issues like Secret Identity.

[psyber624]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

As a GM if someone bought Resistant Protection with "Always On" and applies to skin then I would state that it means that they could not receive standard medical treatment (and would have issues with secret ID as mentioned before). However even then I would rule that "Always On" was worth at most a (-0) limitation in this case. One of HERO's cardinal rules for limitation is that "A limitation that isn't limiting is worth no points." In no way is this Always On a severe limitation, at best it reflects a Distinctive Features Complication (if their "Tough Skin" looked physically different from normal skin). In fact the Always On limitation has a few sentences in the discussion to that very effect.

 

There is nothing wrong with the player stating that their ability is always on, but that doesn't mean they should get a discount on the points for doing so. There are plenty of other instances similar to this where you can take a (-0) limitation to reflect how you want the power to work, even though its not enough of a restriction or hindrance to warrant a point discount.

 

I will say this tho, I always liked the concept that I read on here in another thread that basically states "If you take a limitation, your telling your GM that you want that limitation to come into play at some point." This limitation on a power sparks some ideas about some adventure hooks. Such as a disease that affects only Supers (like the Legacy Virus from Marvel). If the cure had to be injected directly into the bloodstream to work, this character would likely have trouble receiving it. In fact I can recall several instances of Superman having issues similar to this in the comic/cartoons, where his Invulnerability made life difficult for him. Still not enough to warrant a (-1/2) limitation in my mind tho.

 

On that note always remember that the pricing structures listed in the book are guidelines. Because of the nature of the HERO system it is up to the GM, and the player, to determine the actual cost (or modifier) for any given power to reflect how it works in a balanced and fair fashion (to the best of their abilities).

[Tasha]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

I wanted to start a discussion on Limitations that I'm having troubles wrapping my head around - concept-wise

 

The first one I have, is not too long ago I had two characters make new characters. Each one had Resistant Protection.

 

One had the Always on Limitation. Why would that be a Limitation on one and not the other? As far as I can tell, it's no different from the Power that ISN'T always on. Since Resistant Protection (Skin in both matters) is technically always on anyways.

 

Like everything in Hero. It all depends on the Special Effect. If my Resistant Protection is a Skin Tight Forcefield. It may prevent some parts of real life from effecting the character (ie no sense of Touch for instance), Certain Medical Proceedures become impossible. There are also Secret ID issues, Distinctive Features problems etc.

 

So a Characters resistant protection may not always be on. A character modeled after "The Thing" may only have their ResProt. on when they are in Hero ID. Ie the rocky carapace is distinctive and the ability to turn it off gives them the ability to have a life outside of being a Superpowered individual (ie they can "Pass" as a normal person).

 

It depends on the Player's vision for their character.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

I wanted to start a discussion on Limitations that I'm having troubles wrapping my head around - concept-wise

 

The first one I have, is not too long ago I had two characters make new characters. Each one had Resistant Protection.

 

One had the Always on Limitation. Why would that be a Limitation on one and not the other? As far as I can tell, it's no different from the Power that ISN'T always on. Since Resistant Protection (Skin in both matters) is technically always on anyways.

 

Not necessarily ... the character may be able to turn it on and off. However, I freely admit I can't imagine too many circumstances in which Always On would be a limitation for Resistant Protection/Armor. I'd be more likely to give the character a Phys Lim about having difficulty with some medical procedures.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

I couldn't find a link to the video footage but here's a scene from Superman II that folks should remember:

 

Back in the lodge, Lois is lamenting her actions, thinking how stupid she is. Bringing Lois' hair brush to her, Clark trips and falls into the fire place. Fearing that his hand is burned, Lois jumps up to help. But there are no burns. "You are Superman." Clark turns and walks to the bed. Before your eyes, he grows taller and his shoulders grow wider.

 

And a similar situation from a scene deleted from The Incredibles that was in the special features of the DVD release.

 

In a deleted scene, however, his body could withstand being cut by a butcher knife, and also dent it in the process, as demonstrated when he, while trying to cleave some food for the grill, accidentally chopped his fingers. This also in a way acted as a weakness as it would have produced complications as it would have given away his identity to a barbecue by their new neighbors, so he had to fake injury in order to maintain cover.

 

Similar situations have come up often enough in Superman comics alone over the years to arguably warrant a -1/4 value.

 

There was also a short lived Sci-Fy show called Painkiller Jane whose protagonist had what appeared to be Wolverine/Highlander like powers of regeneration but one episode clearly showed that her ability was different when she discovered that she COULD consciously turn off the ability and this was the only thing that allowed her to escape from a character with life-energy vampire powers. So modeling this character in HERO would specifically require NOT taking Always On.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

Another thing to keep in mind.

 

If a power is built with Always On it must also have a 0 End Cost.

This means the Power cannot typically be Pushed.

 

From 6e v2

Generally, characters can only Push Powers that cost END. They cannot Push powers that never cost END, that are bought to 0 END, or that have Charges (but can Push powers bought to ½ END).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

If the player slaps a -1/4 limitation on their power, they are telling me as a GM that this should inconvenience them as much, and as often, as any other -1/4 limitation. Perhaps they both have Always On resistant protection, but the first character has instructed, by his -1/4 limitation, that this cause problems for him in game. The second has provided equally clear instructions that these issues not arise as a problem for his character.

 

If the player does not wish the aspect of his power to arise in a manner that limits him, then don't take back points for that aspect of the power.

 

If you don't see how it's limiting, ask the player for some examples of how he envisions this aspect of his powers causing the character difficulty. If he has no answers, it's not very limiting.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

True. Back in my early HERO days, I operated on a somewhat loose theory with that ... instead of 'how common is this, let me price the limitation/disad appropriate', it was 'How did you price the limitation/disad? That's how common it is'. So, when someone came to me with a character who took damage 'in water' at Very Common, meaning 'every other game at the very least', well, that's how often he got wet. At least once, I decided he was sweating hard enough to short himself out.

[psyber624]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

I love that concept, personally. But then if your not careful you run into issues with players that feel that you are "singling them out" for not building the character the way you see fit. Maybe a guideline before the campaign starts? (-1/4 will come up on average 1 in 4 nights, -1/2 1 in 2, -1 nearly every episode, -2 so often you will seriously regret taking the limitation and beg me to let you buy it off.........)

 

of course applying that logic to some of the more "common" point rape limitations (OAF anybody?) could cause some bad blood as well.........

[Haerandir]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

A) Please come up with a different term than 'point rape' to describe 'thrifty' character building practices. 'Rape' is a loaded term in any context. You'll find that even 'point whoring' will earn you fewer enemies.

 

I think your frequencies would work better if you stepped them down a level (-2 = every session, -1 = every other session, -1/2 = every 2-3 sessions, -1/4 = every 4-6 sessions, etc.) Of course, this is in part dependent on how often your group meets and how long your sessions run. A group that meets for an 8-hour session every month will feel differently about Limitation frequency than one that meets every week for 3 hours.

 

C) Bear in mind that having a Limitation come into play doesn't always have to mean exploiting it to it's fullest potential. If a character is dependent on an OAF, just having an NPC with Martial Disarm show up and threaten to take his precious away can be enough.

[ayinde]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

we always just went with

1/4 disadvantage = infrequent; 8-

1/2 disadvantage = frequent; 11-

3/4 disadvantage = very frequent; 14-

1 disadvantage = all the time; no roll it will come up in game

[dmjalund]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

shouldn't there be 2 parts, one indicating how often, and another, how much?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

shouldn't there be 2 parts' date=' one indicating how often, and another, how much?[/quote']

 

Agreed - a minor inconvenience should come up a lot more frequently than a crippling weakness if both have the same limitation value.

 

2x END always has an impact, but it's a lot less limiting than the complete lack of access to the powers which comes with a damaged or stolen OIF. Blowing a phase to retrieve an OAF, having its abilities unavailable due to Entangles or Grabs - an OAF doesn't have to be missing for weeks to inconvenience a character.

[Greywind]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

2x END doesn't mean what it used to, either. When END was burned 1/5 instead of 1/10 you felt it more.

[psyber624]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

A) Please come up with a different term than 'point rape' to describe 'thrifty' character building practices. 'Rape' is a loaded term in any context. You'll find that even 'point whoring' will earn you fewer enemies.

 

Your right, and I apologize for my phrasing. I don't have an issue with those forms of limitations, per se, but in my mind one of the ways to classify limitations is either A. Rules Enforced, or B. GM Enforced.

 

A. types are not really a problem.The rules dictate how they work, and they apply all the time. Things like increased END, activation rolls, charges, etc.

 

Then you have the Type B, where the GM has to decide when the limitations affect the character. Things like Focus, Unified, Restrainable, and to a limited extent Gestures and Incantations and the like. The last time I GM'd a HERO Game (which was admittedly years ago) I learned to hate Type B limitations, as too many of my players would load powers up with them, then complain when they actually came into effect. I remember the first time I had a NPC disarm a players OAF Blaster, and got accused of trying to kill him as a result. Left a bad taste in my mouth for GM'ing them. (Although I love several of them as a PLAYER, as a GM it's a different story.) I probably just need to find a better class of players next time I GM (or at least make sure they understand the repercussions of limitations better).

[Haerandir]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

Yeah, players putting all their eggs into an OAF basket is one of the classic rookie mistakes. It's right up there with "Don't put your primary Movement & Defense Powers into the same Multipower with your main Attack."

 

Sometimes you just have to educate your players on the difference between 'fluff text' and 'meaningful Limitations'. If they're buying their main attack through an OAF because they think a Blaster Rifle that goes 'pew-pew-pew' is cool, you might be able to convince them to write up their character with a lesser Limitation and just chalk up the rifle to special FX. If they're buying it for the point savings and continue to get mad when you enforce the rules, even after you warn them that it's gonna happen from time to time, you may need a new player.

 

Going back to the original topic, I've been thinking of other ways in which Resistant Protection, Always On could hamper a character:

 

1: Personal relationships. Alicia Masters loves Ben Grimm in spite of his rocky skin, but your character's SO may not be so understanding, particularly if the relationship predates the Power. If Mighty Man's girlfriend dumps him because his skin now feels hard/rough/'icky' or whatever, he's gonna be pretty down. It may also be difficult to initiate new romantic relationships if people don't like to touch you.

 

2: People have mentioned reduced tactile sensitivity, and there may be other issues of a related nature. Steeljack couldn't hold down a job as a dishwasher at a diner because his metal fingers made it hard for him to hold wet, soapy dishes, for instance. In combination with other powers, like superstrength or Density Increase, the potential for property damage or accidentally injuring bystanders could go up, as the character honestly can't tell what's 'dangerous' to normal folks. In combination with the romance issue above, a character might accidentally injure a loved one without realizing that they're being too forceful in a passionate moment.

 

3: Quality of Life: In addition to the issues with medical care, someone with super-hard skin may not be able to enjoy a relaxing massage or a refreshing breeze. Sure, it doesn't have a game-mechanical effect (unless one of their teammates is a super-masseuse) but it affects the character.

 

It's easy to get caught up in a GM's duty to Enforce the Rules, but part of the point of Limitations & Complications is to reward the player for providing the GM with story hooks. If Kurt Busiek can get an entire comic out of the fact that Samaritan loves to fly, but is so busy saving people that he counts his daily flight time in seconds, then you as a GM can milk an otherwise-pointless Limitation for the odd plot point or character vignette. To me, that's worth a point or three, just to encourage the player to look for those little nuggets of characterization. You just don't want to let it get out of hand. I'll let one or two (low-value) 'iffy' Limitations per character slide, particularly if I trust the player in question not to abuse the privilege. More than that and it may be time to have 'the Talk'.

[Tasha]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

I love that concept, personally. But then if your not careful you run into issues with players that feel that you are "singling them out" for not building the character the way you see fit. Maybe a guideline before the campaign starts? (-1/4 will come up on average 1 in 4 nights, -1/2 1 in 2, -1 nearly every episode, -2 so often you will seriously regret taking the limitation and beg me to let you buy it off.........)

 

of course applying that logic to some of the more "common" point minmax limitations (OAF anybody?) could cause some bad blood as well.........

 

All of the time is a -2

Half the time -1

1/4 of time is -1/2

Less often that 1/4 or more is -1/4

 

So you should be looking at once every 6-9 sessions.

 

Also remember Limitations just like Complications are not weapons to bludgeon the players with. Use the guidelines and include them in a way that makes story sense.

 

This is why using the above Punishment Accountant kind of way of viewing limitations are wrong. If we were playing Fantasy Hero would you feel obliged to take the fighters sword away every other adventure? A sword IS an OAF item. It also has "Real Weapon" do you make sure that the PC is keeping the weapon clean and sharpened in their downtime? That's a -1/4 limitation you aren't enforcing.

 

When I play a Weapon's Master in Champions I do buy the weapon as an OAF because that's what it is. It's a weapon that is Obvious, Accessable. It makes no realistic sense for someone to not be able to grab my weapon and prevent me from using it. I guess I could use OIAID -1/4 and Restrainable -1/2 instead. So you can't take my weapon away. I guess it all comes down to whether you approach the system from the viewpoint of an Accountant (ie they have -1 in limitations so I MUST hassle them about it every other adventure) or of a Storyteller (Well the Martial Artist is fighting the Weapons Master this adventure, well the MA will try to Disarm at least once if they have the maneuver). Yes you should use Limitations and Complications to make your story better, but never to punish the player just for taking them

[Tasha]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

Your right, and I apologize for my phrasing. I don't have an issue with those forms of limitations, per se, but in my mind one of the ways to classify limitations is either A. Rules Enforced, or B. GM Enforced.

 

A. types are not really a problem.The rules dictate how they work, and they apply all the time. Things like increased END, activation rolls, charges, etc.

 

Then you have the Type B, where the GM has to decide when the limitations affect the character. Things like Focus, Unified, Restrainable, and to a limited extent Gestures and Incantations and the like. The last time I GM'd a HERO Game (which was admittedly years ago) I learned to hate Type B limitations, as too many of my players would load powers up with them, then complain when they actually came into effect. I remember the first time I had a NPC disarm a players OAF Blaster, and got accused of trying to kill him as a result. Left a bad taste in my mouth for GM'ing them. (Although I love several of them as a PLAYER, as a GM it's a different story.) I probably just need to find a better class of players next time I GM (or at least make sure they understand the repercussions of limitations better).

 

When you have a character with an OAF it's smart to make sure that character has a backup attack for when the Focus is otherwise not available. A great backup for Gun Peoples is Martial arts. Just a few maneuvers that do enough damage that they are a threat in a fight. They don't have to buy a ton of levels with them, but it's good to have something. (ie Trickshot has his OAF revolvers and does many tricks with them. As a backup she has thrown Metal Marbles (10d6 Blast Restrainable 16charges that cost end) When/if her revolvers is disarmed she has another weapon she can use until she can recover her main weapon.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

1: Personal relationships. Alicia Masters loves Ben Grimm in spite of his rocky skin, but your character's SO may not be so understanding, particularly if the relationship predates the Power. If Mighty Man's girlfriend dumps him because his skin now feels hard/rough/'icky' or whatever, he's gonna be pretty down. It may also be difficult to initiate new romantic relationships if people don't like to touch you.

 

2: People have mentioned reduced tactile sensitivity, and there may be other issues of a related nature. Steeljack couldn't hold down a job as a dishwasher at a diner because his metal fingers made it hard for him to hold wet, soapy dishes, for instance. In combination with other powers, like superstrength or Density Increase, the potential for property damage or accidentally injuring bystanders could go up, as the character honestly can't tell what's 'dangerous' to normal folks. In combination with the romance issue above, a character might accidentally injure a loved one without realizing that they're being too forceful in a passionate moment.

 

3: Quality of Life: In addition to the issues with medical care, someone with super-hard skin may not be able to enjoy a relaxing massage or a refreshing breeze. Sure, it doesn't have a game-mechanical effect (unless one of their teammates is a super-masseuse) but it affects the character.

 

These all strike me as Disadvantages (Social, Physical, and Psychological in order), but as usual there's more than one way to go about it.

[Haerandir]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

These all strike me as Disadvantages (Social' date=' Physical, and Psychological in order), but as usual there's more than one way to go about it.[/quote']

 

Well, they certainly could be Complications, but that opens up a different can of worms. If I see a character with 45 points worth of Complications tied to a single character trait, that's as suspicious to me as putting 'Always On' on a cheap, persistent Power. Again, I might allow it, but I'd scrutinize the player's intentions pretty closely.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to whether it's a defining trait for the Character or not. Tying several 10-15 point Complications to your super-hard skin means that it's the character's primary cross to bear (i.e. The Thing is an orange rock monster; plus he has some distinctive personality quirks and catch-phrases). A Limitation that returns 6 or 7 points to the character is a note in the symphony of that character's misery (i.e. Steeljack has much bigger problems relating to his villainous past, his skin just makes them slightly harder to cope with).

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

Personally, I don't usually give a discount for Always On for Defensive Powers unless 1) the player can articulate how it's limiting to the character, and 2) both of us agree that it's going to come up now and then. But then, that principle should apply to pretty much any Limitation: don’t take Focus unless you want me to take it away from you sometimes, etc.

 

I learned to hate Type B limitations' date=' as too many of my players would load powers up with them, then complain when they actually came into effect. I remember the first time I had a NPC disarm a players OAF Blaster, and got accused of trying to kill him as a result.[/quote']

Yeah, been there. See above.

 

If Kurt Busiek can get an entire comic out of the fact that Samaritan loves to fly' date=' but is so busy saving people that he counts his daily flight time in seconds, then you as a GM can milk an otherwise-pointless Limitation for the odd plot point or character vignette. [/quote']

Yes, but Busiek is a goddamn genius; I’m just some guy.

 

I try to make a point of reviewing the PC’s sheets periodically to see what Limitations & Complications haven’t come into play lately. Ditto for Skills, Perks, etc. Some of my best adventures have started out as a list of skills & complications that I want to have come up.

[Greywind]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

I always keep a copy of any character I'm GMing for. My copy is always the correct copy.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Limitations that don't make sense

 

...

I try to make a point of reviewing the PC’s sheets periodically to see what Limitations & Complications haven’t come into play lately. Ditto for Skills, Perks, etc. Some of my best adventures have started out as a list of skills & complications that I want to have come up.

 

That's awesome and probably hard to juggle with multiple players.