humantorch101 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 I am currently thinking of doing a retro campaign using either 2nd or 3rd edition rules. I own all the rules sets from 2nd to 6th apart from 4th edition. Could anyone tell me what changed from 3rd to 4th. A list of the main changes would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition Not really all that different really. More clairity with every edition. Sixth Edition has the most changes, but even these are easily accounted for. Have fun QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition The changes that come immediately to mind is the END costs for powers. It used to be that powers cost one END for every five active points in a power; in 4th it became one for every ten. Also, Reduced END was changed from some complicated formula I can't remember to a more simple +1/4 Advantage for 1/2 END to +1/2 Advantage for Zero END. Both changes were very important, I think. Also for the first time, Skills, Talents, Perks and all the HERO System rules were collected under one cover. There was no need to borrow skills from Danger International or Star Hero for a Champions campaign, or using Champions Focus rules to build spy gadgets for Danger International. Also for the first time in Champions one could buy Martial Arts by the Manuever (Martial Strike, Martial Throw, etc.) rather than paying a point cost equal to the character's STR and getting an OCV bonus and additional damage. That's all I can think of for now. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition Also IIRC Elemental Controls changed AGAIN. Also I think that 4e is the edition that makes Reduced End an Advantage instead of a Power Modifier (ie Elemental controls and Multipowers). Also end costs change to Active points/10. The Skill system goes to the 3 pt skill with 2pt/+1 for all ex Sciences/Knowledges/Professions. Instead of playing a game with flawed rules, how about playing a Game of 6e Champions Complete? The Rules are nice and small, without all of those pesky explanations that add weight to the book. Also the game balance is arguably the best it's been in forever. Also, it helps support the company you all know and love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition Well, two of our board colleagues compiled lists of changes between editions, one for 3E Champions and other pre-4E HERO System games (from the perspective of 4E), and another of the changes from 4E to 5E (again from a 4E perspective). Hopefully between them, you can find the info you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition I think 5th Edition rules are the best because they are a logical evolution of the system. There is nothing wrong with updating previous edition heroes and villains and using them with the 5th edition rules. PRIMUS, The Golden and Silver Avengers, VIPER, Ogre, Crusader, The Protectors, The Champions, Freedom Squad, Eurostar, Terror Inc, Icicle, all provide a rich environment for a campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition I love 6th for destroying the big point breaks that STR based characters got. Also breaking Figured Chars stopped the Dex Armsrace that I saw in many campaigns. in 6e all stats are bought to what the player thinks, not what is the most "efficient". If you want a high OCV character that for some reason is slow on their feet (ie low DCV) you can do it. The only real negatives to 6e are the prices of Skill Levels makes buying raw CV cheaper and getting used to characters being 100pts more expensive due to secondary Characteristics needing to be purchased. Otherwise 6e is the superior edition IMHO. Also it's easy to buy in a nice spiffy slim version that is actually very inexpensive. (AKA Champions Complete) As long as you aren't a stickler for point totals. All characters are basically compatible with all editions of the game. You may need to know that Energy Blast was the earlier version of Blast, and that Barrier took the place of Force Wall. That's just names and the powers on the characters are all pretty self explanatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition The 100 pts more expensive is the thing with 6e that still messes with my head. I was reluctant to change from 4e to 5e. It was really only Megascale that tipped me over the edge. I haven't seen anything in 6e that has convinced me that there was any real superiority between it and 5e. Apart from the rules, the main difference between the earlier editions and the current ones is the escalation in how Real World stuff is written up. Seriously. A PzKpfw I or II should be a tin can, not something Superman has to fear. (Batman is a different story). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition I love Megascale because it gives players Strategic movement for low costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition The 100 pts more expensive is the thing with 6e that still messes with my head. I was reluctant to change from 4e to 5e. It was really only Megascale that tipped me over the edge. I haven't seen anything in 6e that has convinced me that there was any real superiority between it and 5e. Apart from the rules, the main difference between the earlier editions and the current ones is the escalation in how Real World stuff is written up. Seriously. A PzKpfw I or II should be a tin can, not something Superman has to fear. (Batman is a different story). Most versions of Superman hardly qualify as a starting character and "real world" things have to scale from other weapons and such used in genres other than superheros. There are dozens of examples of how to make the world more breakable for your superheros without breaking the verisimilitude of the item's write-ups for every other genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition The 100 pts more expensive is the thing with 6e that still messes with my head. I was reluctant to change from 4e to 5e. It was really only Megascale that tipped me over the edge. I haven't seen anything in 6e that has convinced me that there was any real superiority between it and 5e. Apart from the rules, the main difference between the earlier editions and the current ones is the escalation in how Real World stuff is written up. Seriously. A PzKpfw I or II should be a tin can, not something Superman has to fear. (Batman is a different story). One way to deal with that issue is to assume that all heroes come with 3 or more levels of Damage Negation (only vs "real weapons). Damage negation reduces the DC of attacks. Attacks can overcome this defense with the Reduced Negation adder. This way you can still have tanks and guns written up the way they have been since Espionage and have Supers being able to ignore all but the biggest Guns. I am constantly thinking up uses for this new power. Heck, while my campaign won't have DN built in for characters, I will probably buy the Brick and PA suit some of it so they can look extra tough when the Merc Sharpshooters come calling with their .50cal MG's and Sniper Rifles. Also writing up characters without having to deal with Primary characteristics giving free Secondary Characteristics (aka Figured Characteristics) really frees up the mind to do whatever you want. Also with CV decoupled from DEX (and MCV from Ego) you can have highly dexterous characters who aren't that great without skill levels, or folk who can hit a fly at 100 yards, but have a bad leg and have a low DCV. It sounds minor, but it's really empowering. Also, I found my players all choose to have lower Dex than in 5e and earlier games. They only bought up the Dex if it made character conception sense. I will point out again that Real world weapon writeups have been doing the same damage since 1st edition (in Espionage). Character points have increased because some powers and most importantly Power Frameworks changed costs. With Frameworks giving less and less of a bonus (at least in the case of Elemental Controls). Characters cost more because we are making them buy all of their Secondary Characteristics and between 3rd and 5th we started to realize that having characters with a full suite of skills was preferable to having just a simple power writeup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition I've been using the "Real Weapon" Limitation -- which virtually all real-world weapons in HERO 5E and 6E are built with -- for years as the distinction and justification for such weapons doing less damage against "super" defenses than weapons built without them. And the other side of that coin, the "Real Armor" Lim applied to all classes of realistic body armor, as making it less protective versus super-class attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition I like 6E versions of Power Frameworks. The changes allow more flexibility in concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Re: Champions 3rd to 4th edition The best thing about 4th ed, at least for me, was the Champions Universe. There was just something about it that felt like a comic book world. Rules wise, I like 6th ed, but if I were to run from the books rather than my own campaign world again, I would use the 4th ed version of the CU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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