Sunnydale, California for Champions 5E

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Much as it might pain some fans to hear it stated in such bald terms, in any world with four-color metahumans Slayers are inconsequential chump change.

 

 

Buffy's powers...

 

* DEX and SPD up around Normal Characteristic Maxima or slightly above (even powerful vampires like Angelus aren't *that* much faster or agile than the most well-trained of humans -- remember, Buffyverse vampires are much low-powered than most other vampire conceptions in fiction, and Angel's fight vs. Riley Finn gives us a good benchmark for relative SPDs between Angel/Angelus and a Buffyverse human in peak physical condition with minor augmentations -- and Buffy only matches them SPD and DEX wise, she doesn't significantly exceed them)

 

1) Riley, IMNSHO, is not 'Normal Characteristic Maximum'.

A) He's been modified.

NCM is for heroic. I'll play in worlds where 20/8/8/4/10/50/50 is the max for humans, but I disagree with that idea. I don't want to ignate that debate, but suffice it say... Would you limit Captain America to that? IF you would, fine.

 

2) Buffy *is* faster. Since the combats have to be at a speed where they can A) be filmed and be understood, this doesn't really get shown.

 

3) We saw equal CV, yeah. Dexes? I'm pretty fangy was going first.

 

4) SPD? This is impossible to quantify. Among other things, SPD 4 vs SPD 6 takes a full turn to be noticed. I mean... say A is DEX 20 SPD 4, B is DEX 21 SPD 6.

 

Initiative goes: B, A, B, A, B B, A, B, A, B B A.

Going with a simple punch per action, and allowing MPA's, you can't tell.

 

SPD's need to be massively different to be distinguishable. I mean... over 50% faster? That's huge. Yet in an action packed, high speed fight... it just looks like one of them is hitting a bit more often.

 

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

* STR in the 30-35 range

 

* A very high nonresistant PD... but /no/ resistant PD (Slayers have been given life-threatening wounds with ordinary knives and bullets), and no ED worth mentioning (Slayers have dropped from single hits by normal cattle prods).

 

* The 'Rapid Healing' Talent from Fantasy HERO 5e, all 5 points of it

 

The STR... yeah. Slayers are hardly bricks. Even if they do get to be much stronger than a vampire.

The PD? Yep. The rPD? Yep.

 

The ED? No. That's a NND in my book.

 

Also, 'dodging' combat luck seems appropriate.

 

Rapid Healing? I say no. They regenerate at an 'out of combat' rate. Maybe 1/hour? (If that *is* what rapid healing is, ignore this...)

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

* A No Conscious Control dream-based Precognition, and it's been mostly ignored for the past 3-4 seasons anyway

 

... well, heck, we're not even past 250 points here. We might not be past 200. There are Ravenswood Academy students who can blow right past this power curve, let alone any 350-point starting character. *Foxbat* is a greater HTH combat machine than Buffy can ever dream of being. Hell, *Bulldozer* is a more fearsome force than Buffy. (Although granted, even Xander could fast-talk Bulldozer into punching the nearest electrical junction box and KO'ing himself.)

 

Don't forget Superstar, where she was aware enough to detect the world altering. I have no idea how to write that mind.

 

Not even past 250?

I'm not sure even your version is *quite* that weak.

 

And Foxbat is human, right? So why is he more dangerous?

 

I mean, he can't have DEX advantage.

Or a SPD advantage.

Or more damage.

 

Quite the contrary...

 

And let's not even go near combat skills...

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

So how do I think Slayers fit into the default CU? Going off the canon material and the power levels displayed, as a barely-remarkable bit of background noise.(*)

 

AAMOF, the only entities I can recall from Buffy that would actually be significant Champions villains were Adam (and a team of 350-pointers would consider him a low-to-medium threat), Glory, the Judge (if allowed to reach full apotheosis... he's a *solo* 350-point adventure villain at reduced level), and Dark Willow.

 

 

 

 

(*) The 'Super-Slayer' from the end of season 4 is being ignored here because that was a literally once-in-a-lifetime plot device.

 

Well, from what I've seen, a Slayer really is some kind of super-martial artist.

 

I'd add Caleb and the Mayor (Explosives do killing energy damage. )to that list. (Although not as high powered threats)

 

Why Caleb? Well, one hit KO's are hard. Especially given...

 

STR 35

CON 18 (low IMO)

BODY 15 (low IMO)

PD 14 (low IMO)

 

= STUN 42+. 66+ STUN dmg... In one hit. Even with better than average rolls...

18 dice of damage... or more?

[gewing]

Any gamer could clean up the town of all the OBVIOUS targets in short order. Might level parts of the town, but...

 

I have always wanted the overconfident vampires to run in one 55 year old combat veteran, who is smart enought o know they are around. There are SOOOOO many things he could do to mess them up.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

Oh yes, and re: your Initiative comments...

 

One of my fellow Buffy-watching friends is an ex-Marine who used to be with FAST (Fleet Anti-Terrorist Strike Team), after doing a hitch in the 1st Security Force Battalion.

 

His comments -- well, forget the month. According to him.. give him a company from Force Security, arm 'em up appropriately, and they'd flush the Sunnydale sewers in three days to a week.

[Mark Rand]

How's this? The Powers That Be empower the Slayers. There's one at each Hellmouth and others, roaming the world, dealing with whatever undead they come across.

As far as the vamps themselves go, we use the ones from VtM. There's plenty of resources for it on the web and a system for converting it to Hero System. on a page linked to The Stuff Heroes Are Made Of website.

[Chuckg]

> 1) Riley, IMNSHO, is not 'Normal Characteristic Maximum'.

 

I said "at /or slightly above/". Obviously, Angel, Buffy, and Riley are 'slightly above'.

 

[snip]

> 2) Buffy *is* faster. Since the combats have to be at a speed

> where they can A) be filmed and be understood, this

> doesn't really get shown.

 

Faulty reasoning.

 

1) It's long since been possible to show or at least imply superhuman speed on-screen, on a cheap budget. They do not do so.

 

2) We have seen Buffy temporarily stripped of her powers... and she was still moving at least 90% as quickly, /relative to the vampire she was fighting/, as she moved when she was at full strength. She was obviously much lower on STR and DEX, but she apparently didn't have that much superhuman SPD to lose.

 

> 3) We saw equal CV, yeah. Dexes? I'm pretty fangy was going

> first.

 

/sigh/

 

Again, you're trying to debunk an argument *that I never actually made*. I *explicitly* say in my prior post that while Angel and Riley have equal SPDs, Angel has a clear DEX edge.

 

> 4) SPD? This is impossible to quantify.

 

Wrong.

 

> Among other things, SPD 4 vs SPD 6 takes a full turn to be

> noticed. I mean... say A is DEX 20 SPD 4, B is DEX 21 SPD 6.

 

How fortunate, then, that both fights I used for my SPD benchmark -- Angel vs. Riley and Buffy vs. Angelus -- lasted at least one full Turn.

 

AAMOF, Buffy and Angelus looked to be going for two.

 

[snip]

> The ED? No. That's a NND in my book.

 

In addition to the cattle prods, we see that Slayers get burned by fire like ordinary people. No resistant ED.

 

> Also, 'dodging' combat luck seems appropriate.

 

One level, at most. Witness Faith vs. Angelus with a shotgun ... Faith did *not* have enough Combat Luck to rely on safely, she *had* to Abort to Dodge -- repeatedly.

 

> Rapid Healing? I say no. They regenerate at an 'out of

> combat' rate. Maybe 1/hour? (If that *is* what rapid healing

> is, ignore this...)

 

That *is* what rapid healing is.

 

> Don't forget Superstar, where she was aware enough to

> detect the world altering.

 

That was Adam. Buffy didn't know a damn thing was going on until around the first or second commercial break, and IIRC it was *Willow* who first made her Deduction roll after looking at the yearbook.

 

[snip]

> And Foxbat is human, right?

 

No, Foxbat is a 350-point martial artist in a superheroic campaign, and as such does not have Normal Characteristic Maxima.

 

> So why is he more dangerous?

 

Equal SPDs, at least an equal DEX, enough Damage Classes to hit as hard as the average vampire, and he can glide. Throw in the Dreaded Ping Pong Ball Gun and Buffy vs. Foxbat is not a fight, it's a massacre. Hell, he's even got freaking Slayer superleaping (Foxbat has a 4-hex vertical superleap... which is how high Faith was going in her fight vs. Angelus.)

 

[snip]

> And let's not even go near combat skills...

 

Let's not, because Buffy's are extremely rudimentary... I mean, jeez, count how often she gets hit -- by mooks. If it weren't for her nPD soak, she'd be Knocked Out in virtually every fight.

 

Buffy beats the crap outta people by bulling her way through on sheer Slayer superstrength and resilience, and going off the base CVs of her DEX 20. Stripped of her powers, she has virtually *no* HTH ability worth mentioning... and that's not speculation, that's canon.

 

> Well, from what I've seen, a Slayer really is some kind of

> super-martial artist.

 

Actually, they're a low end brick with DEX 20.

 

> I'd add Caleb and the Mayor (Explosives do killing energy

> damage. )to that list. (Although not as high powered

> threats)

 

Caleb and the Mayor are not world-ending threats, they're local ones. And the Mayor *died* from explosives.

 

> Why Caleb? Well, one hit KO's are hard. Especially given...

 

[snip]

 

IIRC, he hit the head -- x2 STUN, x2 BODY. Your calcs are off.

[Sketchpad]

Personally, I see Buffy between the 25-30 Str range ... she's about as strong as the main bad-guys for the most part. Mind you, I don't mean the average "Poke a stake in my chest" vampire, I'm talking more like Spike, Angel, the Judge, etc. A fight with a main bad guy usually lasts for more than 2 mins. I don't see her truly being a major super-power ... maybe being made on around 250 points, about the same as some lower-end supers (like perhaps the Question or Nick Fury). In a straight fight with most metahumans, she should get her clock cleaned because, honestly, she doesn't use nifty gadgets regularly or have any major powers beyond a good healing factor, some enhanced strength and speed and toughness (and maybe a Vampire sense if you combine the stuff from the movie).

Riley, as well as most of the Initiative, should use the Character Maxima as a guideline. I would actually have his Strength a little lower than Buffy's, but I would also give him some additional gadgets

As far as the Slayer being in Gotham ... Bringing her (or a character like her) into the darker spectrum of 4-color comics would be interesting, but I think that Buffing (pun inteded ) her up would be a smart idea. First off, give her a few styles of martial arts with Find Weakness. Secondly, give her some 4-Color gadgets ... instead of a stake, maybe she has a blessed sword (like the one in Fray and the last seasom); instead of a crossbow, maybe she's toting around a gun like the Huntress these days that's one part gun, one part something else ... look at Blade and borrow a few things from his arsenal I would also give her something more than a t-shirt and jeans for an outfit, look at something a bit more armored. She should also have a plethora of allies ...aka "The Scooby Gang" ... that would be made as followers. Willow should have either a VPP or MP with some serious spells and Xander should be given a few interesting weapons, maybe operating off his "military" background. As for Giles, I would actually make him more like Oracle, sitting at the computer and guding Buffy when needed via a comlink. Would the Batman accept her? I actually see the Bat treating her more like Huntress and thinking that her methods are a tad too extreme. Perhaps she also serves as one of Babs' lesser "Birds" as well and rubs elbows with Spoiler, Batgirl, Pagan and, on a lesser note, Robin.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Originally posted by Chuckg

>> 1) Riley, IMNSHO, is not 'Normal Characteristic Maximum'.

>

>I said "at /or slightly above/". Obviously, Angel, Buffy, and Riley >are 'slightly above'.

 

Really? Since all we can judge them by is 'relative to each other' there is no real.

 

[snip]

>> 2) Buffy *is* faster. Since the combats have to be at a speed

>> where they can A) be filmed and be understood, this

>> doesn't really get shown.

>

>Faulty reasoning.

>

>1) It's long since been possible to show or at least imply superhuman >speed on-screen, on a cheap budget. They do not do so.

>

>2) We have seen Buffy temporarily stripped of her powers... and she >was still moving at least 90% as quickly, /relative to the vampire she >was fighting/, as she moved when she was at full strength. She was >obviously much lower on STR and DEX, but she apparently didn't have >that much superhuman SPD to lose.

 

Okay, I may have made a mistaken assumption...

Still, SPD is 90% mental (despite the DEX tie in...); it's how effective someone can be in combat.

 

>> 3) We saw equal CV, yeah. Dexes? I'm pretty fangy was going

>> first.

>

>/sigh/

>

>Again, you're trying to debunk an argument *that I never actually >made*. I *explicitly* say in my prior post that while Angel and Riley >have equal SPDs, Angel has a clear DEX edge.

 

well, it *looked* like it...

 

>> 4) SPD? This is impossible to quantify.

>>

>>Wrong.

>

>> Among other things, SPD 4 vs SPD 6 takes a full turn to be

>> noticed. I mean... say A is DEX 20 SPD 4, B is DEX 21 SPD 6.

>

>How fortunate, then, that both fights I used for my SPD benchmark -- >Angel vs. Riley and Buffy vs. Angelus -- lasted at least one full Turn.

>

>AAMOF, Buffy and Angelus looked to be going for two.

 

Buffy vs Angelus? I agree, probably a match.

Riley vs Angel? I'm working off memory here, but I thought Angel was doing a lot more than his human opponent.

 

>[snip]

>> The ED? No. That's a NND in my book.

>

>In addition to the cattle prods, we see that Slayers get burned by fire >like ordinary people. No resistant ED.

 

I agree - SEEKER!

I'd just say they'd have a reasonable ED.

 

 

>

>> Also, 'dodging' combat luck seems appropriate.

>

>One level, at most. Witness Faith vs. Angelus with a shotgun ... Faith >did *not* have enough Combat Luck to rely on safely, she *had* to >Abort to Dodge -- repeatedly.

 

Hey, Shotguns rule.

I didn't see that fight. (I can't remember *why* offhand...)

 

SEEKER!

 

 

>> Don't forget Superstar, where she was aware enough to

>> detect the world altering.

>

>That was Adam. Buffy didn't know a damn thing was going on until >around the first or second commercial break, and IIRC it was *Willow* >who first made her Deduction roll after looking at the yearbook.

 

no, she pulled off the same thing. She could sense something was not right. Adam just saw right through it, but...

 

[snip]

>> And Foxbat is human, right?

>

>No, Foxbat is a 350-point martial artist in a superheroic campaign, >and as such does not have Normal Characteristic Maxima.

 

So, because characters are based on NCM in your write up, Buffy is not superheroic, and so characters are affected by NCM...

hmm.

 

>> So why is he more dangerous?

>

>Equal SPDs, at least an equal DEX, enough Damage Classes to hit as >hard as the average vampire, and he can glide. Throw in the >Dreaded Ping Pong Ball Gun and Buffy vs. Foxbat is not a fight, it's a >massacre. Hell, he's even got freaking Slayer superleaping (Foxbat >has a 4-hex vertical superleap... which is how high Faith was going in >her fight vs. Angelus.)

 

However fast humans *can* get, that's what BuffyDex should be higher than. That's my point.

I agree with the gliding and the ping-pong ball gun though, but you said HtoH.

 

[snip]

>> And let's not even go near combat skills...

>

>Let's not, because Buffy's are extremely rudimentary... I mean, jeez, >count how often she gets hit -- by mooks. If it weren't for her nPD >soak, she'd be Knocked Out in virtually every fight.

>

>Buffy beats the crap outta people by bulling her way through on >sheer Slayer superstrength and resilience, and going off the base CVs >of her DEX 20. Stripped of her powers, she has virtually *no* HTH >ability worth mentioning... and that's not speculation, that's canon.

>

 

Well, that was earlier on. It's been literally years since that episode.

You're right that she doesn't fight smart much, but then again, she doesn't really need to. (the nPD soak...)

 

>> Well, from what I've seen, a Slayer really is some kind of

>> super-martial artist.

>

>Actually, they're a low end brick with DEX 20.

 

(shrug)

Assuming the slayerverse is heroic, yeah. Otherwise...

 

>> I'd add Caleb and the Mayor (Explosives do killing energy

>> damage. )to that list. (Although not as high powered

>> threats)

>

>Caleb and the Mayor are not world-ending threats, they're local >ones. And the Mayor *died* from explosives.

 

Yes, but there was a lot of explosives (and the slayerverse ground rules state NO resistant defenses... it's kinda silly in a way). And Caleb was definately part of a world ending threat... I should have been a little clearer.

 

And I thought you meant 'something superheroes could run into'.

Sorry if I misread, I may have been a little tired...

 

And Caleb *requires* the First, so he definately is apocalyptic...

 

>> Why Caleb? Well, one hit KO's are hard. Especially given...

>

>[snip]

>

>IIRC, he hit the head -- x2 STUN, x2 BODY. Your calcs are off.

 

Both times?

And head shots are an optional rule anyway...

[Chuckg]

> > I said "at /or slightly above/". Obviously, Angel, Buffy, and

> > Riley >are 'slightly above'.

 

> Really? Since all we can judge them by is 'relative to each

> other' there is no real.

 

You mean there's no normal humans in the Buffyverse? You mean there are no scenes of Angel, Buffy, or Riley fighting against or alongside normal humans in the Buffyverse? No such comparision standard is even /remotely/ available?

 

/sarcasm off

 

We can not only judge them relative to each other, we can also judge them relative to the unaugmented people in the cast.

 

[snip]

> Buffy vs Angelus? I agree, probably a match.

> Riley vs Angel? I'm working off memory here, but I thought

> Angel was doing a lot more than his human opponent.

 

I have the film clip. Riley and Angel were trading blow for blow until Riley temporarily knocked Angel back with the stun gun, and then Angel pulled off a successful Block, got Riley in a Grab, and then commenced Grab and Cruish and Grab And Throw.

 

[snip]

> no, she pulled off the same thing. She could sense

> something was not right.

 

*goes and rereads the shooting script*

 

Yeah, she was getting all egotistical about how Jonathan was a better fighter than her and how impossible that was. You are correct, though, in that Willow didn't make her Deduction roll first.

 

[snip]

>>> And Foxbat is human, right?

 

>No, Foxbat is a 350-point martial artist in a superheroic

>campaign, >and as such does not have Normal Characteristic

>Maxima.

 

>So, because characters are based on NCM in your write up,

 

Over 95% of the Buffy cast is limited to NCM, and I have seven seasons' worth of opportunities to see how Buffy looks alongside of them. Your attempt to characterize me as just making arbitrary assumptions with no basis in canon is wrong.

 

[snip]

> However fast humans *can* get, that's what BuffyDex should

> be higher than. That's my point.

 

And why should Buffy be superhumanly fast, again? What from the Buffy show supports your assumption?

 

Seeing as how in the CU the absolute peak of human potential is SPD 7, then either Either Xander is a SPD 6 human next to Buffy's SPD 8 (your logic), or Buffy is a SPD 5 low-end metahuman standing next to Xander's SPD 3 or SPD 4 (my logic).

 

Now, which one makes more sense given what's actually on-screen?

 

[snip]

> Well, that was earlier on.

 

And later on.

 

> It's been literally years since that episode.

 

Season 5 finale, 'The Gift" -- Buffy fights a mook vamp in the opening vignette and takes three shots to the face from it in return for the two shots to the face, one shot to the knee, and the stake in the chest she manaegs to deliver back. Season 6 early episode, "Flooded", Buffy fights the nameless grunt and again, takes at least as many punches as she gets. Season 6 later on, where she fights the superpowered *Warren* for God's sake, and he proceeds to manhandle her like a cheap cigar -- and while Warren had massive STR and PD on her, Warren had *NO* combat training whatsoever.

 

That's just what I can remember specifically off the top of my head, and it's by far not the complete list.

 

> You're right that she doesn't fight smart much, but then

> again, she doesn't really need to.

 

That's precisely my point -- for HTH, Buffy relies almost completely on her powers. Take them out of the equation, she's got virtually *zero* HTH skills to fall back on.

 

[snip]

> Assuming the slayerverse is heroic, yeah.

 

It *is* heroic. Just look at the cast members who *aren't* Slayers or vampires.

 

The whole damn paradigm of both shows is "low-end metahuman surrounded by a loyal party of agents and even lower-end metahumans". Heroic campaign.

 

[snip]

> Yes, but there was a lot of explosives (and the slayerverse

> ground rules state NO resistant defenses...

 

Correction -- the Slayerverse ground rules state no resistant defenses *for Slayers*. We have repeatedly seen bulletproof demons, and even the average Buffyvamp pretty much ignores gunfire.

 

[snip]

> And Caleb *requires* the First,

 

Strictly speaking, no. We've seen physical power comparable to Caleb's granted via demonic rituals that even losers like the Trio could execute.

 

[snip]

>IIRC, he hit the head -- x2 STUN, x2 BODY. Your calcs are off.

 

> Both times?

 

Again, IIRC, yes.

 

> And head shots are an optional rule anyway...

 

Ah, but this is a Heroic campaign.

[Mark Rand]

Based on Buffy crossover stories found at fanfiction.net, here's the Gotham vamp-busting team I came up with.

A Jedi Knight/Slayer who carries a lightsaber as well as other vamp-killing tools.

Her mother, a Jedi Knight (or is it Jedi Master) who, after coming to Earth 30-years ago, trained her daughter.

Two mother-daughter teams of Amazon warriors, empowered by Artemis Herself. (Modern Amazons are decended from members of the Southern Greek Amazon tribe, led by Queen Gabrielle, who fled the Roman army while 200 Amazons held off 2 Roman legions. In the end, the Amazons died, as did half the Roman troops.)

A sorceress with an 80-point VPP.

A Watcher, who known computers and is an agent of the Trismegistus Council.

Since Batman is aware of the undead and the fact that these people battle only them, I don't think he worries about them.

PRIMUS and/or the DOSPA may even work with them.

Comment is invited.

[Chuckg]

Vampires? That party's set up to fight /Demon Princes/.

[Chuckg]

I've just noticed that so far, nobody in this thread has even touched upon what is, by far, the most useful thing Buffyverse canon has to offer to a Champions campaign...

 

Wolfram & Hart.

 

Take DEMON, ditch the robes, and put 'em in three-piece suits. Hide the ritual chambers in glitzy skyscrapers in the heart of the financial district. Shield the inhuman machinations of the foul servants of the Kings of Edom beneath the facade of one of the most respectable, or at least one of the most well-connected, law firms in the world.

 

And watch your players /sweat/.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Chuckg

I've just noticed that so far, nobody in this thread has even touched upon what is, by far, the most useful thing Buffyverse canon has to offer to a Champions campaign...

 

Wolfram & Hart.

 

Take DEMON, ditch the robes, and put 'em in three-piece suits. Hide the ritual chambers in glitzy skyscrapers in the heart of the financial district. Shield the inhuman machinations of the foul servants of the Kings of Edom beneath the facade of one of the most respectable, or at least one of the most well-connected, law firms in the world.

 

And watch your players /sweat/.

 

Great point! In fact a Wolfram and Hart source book would be pretty darn useful, I wonder if the BtVS game people have done or are going to do that?

[Mark Rand]

I also agree with the comments about Wolfram & Hart. Good call, Chuckg.

As far as the Slayer and her team goes, they patrol in groups of two and compare notes at headquarters later. The only time they're all patrolling together is when there is big trouble heading their way.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by zornwil

In fact a Wolfram and Hart source book would be pretty darn useful.

I can just see it now:

 

"My name is Derek Wellington of Wolfram & Hart, attorney at law. I am here to post Dr. Zerstoiten's bail. Please, don't call him by that vile 'Dr. Destroyer' name; that's a sensationalist term used by the vulgar media to describe my 86 year old client. It was one billion US dollars, I believe? Here it is, in cash. Thank you. Just bring him around front, will you?"

 

The biggest problem, of course, is telling Wolfram & Hart attorneys from regular ones. Don't they all recoil from crosses?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I can just see it now:

 

"My name is Derek Wellington of Wolfram & Hart, attorney at law. I am here to post Dr. Zerstoiten's bail. Please, don't call him by that vile 'Dr. Destroyer' name; that's a sensationalist term used by the vulgar media to describe my 86 year old client. It was one billion US dollars, I believe? Here it is, in cash. Thank you. Just bring him around front, will you?"

 

The biggest problem, of course, is telling Wolfram & Hart attorneys from regular ones. Don't they all recoil from crosses?

 

Heh, that's how W&H remain undetected by the public at large! "Vampires? Nah, you got it all wrong, they're just lawyers!"

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

>>No, Foxbat is a 350-point martial artist in a superheroic

>>campaign, >and as such does not have Normal Characteristic

>>Maxima.

>

>>So, because characters are based on NCM in your write up,

>

>Over 95% of the Buffy cast is limited to NCM, and I have seven seasons' >worth of opportunities to see how Buffy looks alongside of them. Your >attempt to characterize me as just making arbitrary assumptions with >no basis in canon is wrong.

 

Why are they based on NCM?

They're human, but as you pointed out, so is Foxbat.

 

NCM is a judgement call, and one I disagree with. Buffyverse characters are clearly *not* limited to NCM - at least half the cast can justify some form of superhuman characteristics, on the basis of being metahuman...

 

[snip]

>> However fast humans *can* get, that's what BuffyDex should

>> be higher than. That's my point.

>

>And why should Buffy be superhumanly fast, again? What from the >Buffy show supports your assumption?

>

>Seeing as how in the CU the absolute peak of human potential is SPD >7, then either Either Xander is a SPD 6 human next to Buffy's SPD 8 >(your logic), or Buffy is a SPD 5 low-end metahuman standing next to >Xander's SPD 3 or SPD 4 (my logic).

>

>Now, which one makes more sense given what's actually on-screen?

 

Any value could justified. SPD is relative.

My personal stab at values?

 

Note: This is final season values. I consider all buffy characters to have earned EXP and become more capable over time.

 

Buffy can take SPD 7. Dealing with skilled normals (SPD 3, which is probably the point at which people become combat trained in one way or another), she'd be scary. But not that overwhelming either. SPD 7 characters get up faster, and hit more often, but 2-3 slower characters can be a decent opposition.

 

Xander?

SPD 4 maybe?

5?

He *is* fairly effective in combat. SPD 4 at best in season 4. Then again, season one you'd be pushing it to give give him SPD 3.

 

Angel? 2 more skill levels, but ~ 3 DEX, 1 SPD (at least) below Buffy. He's good, but he has a static power level. Angelus was as fast as Buffy *was*.

 

Riley? Hovering between 5 and 6.

 

 

[snip]

>> Well, that was earlier on.

>

>And later on.

>

>> It's been literally years since that episode.

 

The depowered ep does show a Buffy who'd barely mastered her innate Slayer fighting ability. Incidently, I think becoming the Slayer also imparts combat skill (which would have been lost), not just strength and speed. I'm not sure where I got that from though...

 

>Season 5 finale, 'The Gift" -- Buffy fights a mook vamp in the opening >vignette and takes three shots to the face from it in return for the >two shots to the face, one shot to the knee, and the stake in the >chest she manaegs to deliver back. Season 6 early >episode, "Flooded", Buffy fights the nameless grunt and again, takes >at least as many punches as she gets. Season 6 later on, where she >fights the superpowered *Warren* for God's sake, and he proceeds >to manhandle her like a cheap cigar -- and while Warren had massive >STR and PD on her, Warren had *NO* combat training whatsoever.

>

>That's just what I can remember specifically off the top of my head, >and it's by far not the complete list.

 

Well, vs mooks I get the feeling Buffy isn't really giving her all. She is not very focused. I mean, she sort of plays around in these kind of scenes.

 

>> You're right that she doesn't fight smart much, but then

>> again, she doesn't really need to.

>

>That's precisely my point -- for HTH, Buffy relies almost completely on >her powers. Take them out of the equation, she's got virtually *zero* >HTH skills to fall back on.

 

The second does not follow from the first. In most conflicts, yeah. Buffy relies on her Slayer powers. However, she fights a lot smarter (better) when she's up against something that she can't just use brute force on.

 

[snip]

>> Assuming the slayerverse is heroic, yeah.

>

>It *is* heroic. Just look at the cast members who *aren't* Slayers or >vampires.

>

>The whole damn paradigm of both shows is "low-end metahuman >surrounded by a loyal party of agents and even lower-end >metahumans". Heroic campaign.

 

I really don't agree, and especially not when comparing Buffy characters to CU characters.

(The Rule of 2: to convert a characters *stats* from superheroic to heroic, remove 2 CV, SPD and 6 DEF... this was in a 4th book.)

 

[snip]

>> Yes, but there was a lot of explosives (and the slayerverse

>> ground rules state NO resistant defenses...

>

>Correction -- the Slayerverse ground rules state no resistant defenses >*for Slayers*. We have repeatedly seen bulletproof demons, and >even the average Buffyvamp pretty much ignores gunfire.

 

Gunfire, yeah. Sharp cutting things and explosions? No, only in special cases.

 

[snip]

>> And Caleb *requires* the First,

>

>Strictly speaking, no. We've seen physical power comparable to >Caleb's granted via demonic rituals that even losers like the Trio >could execute.

 

Well, since *Caleb's* power was derived from the First, that's really what I meant. Superheroic level combatant with a nasty master plan? Works for me.

 

 

Okay. Main point: I say, write up Buffy for (comparison to) CU as if she was a character in a superhero universe, *because that's what you're putting her in*

 

You say, no. Heroic.

[zornwil]

Gah, would you guys mind using the standard quoting on these boards? This is hard to read!

 

If nothing else, thanks for listening to me complain.

[MisterD]

Originally posted by zornwil

Heh, that's how W&H remain undetected by the public at large! "Vampires? Nah, you got it all wrong, they're just lawyers!"

 

 

I thought the Law firm from She-Wolf of London were vampires?

[Chuckg]

> Why are they based on NCM?

> They're human, but as you pointed out, so is Foxbat.

 

Your argument has no logical consistency whatsoever.

 

A moment's thought would have reminded you that even Foxbat lives upon a planet where over 99.9+% of the inhabitants still have Normal Characteristic Maxima... and we can easily see how Foxbat stacks up against them.

 

Do you even *use* agent-level characters in your campaign?

 

> NCM is a judgement call, and one I disagree with. Buffyverse

> characters are clearly *not* limited to NCM - at least half

> the cast can justify some form of superhuman

> characteristics, on the basis of being metahuman...

 

In case you weren't paying attention -- and you obviously weren't -- you might, perhaps, have recalled that I used *XANDER* as one of my Normal Characteristic Maxima benchmarks, re: how much faster than him Buffy appeared to be going in turn. (Answer -- a little faster, but not significantly faster.)

 

And given that Xander's role on the show was to be Normal Guy...?

 

Sheesh. I'm trying to be polite, but it's growing harder and harder to do so when you can't even give me the minimal courtesy of reading what I write. Or, for that matter, of maintaining any kind of accuracy re: Buffyverse canon...

 

[snip]

> The depowered ep does show a Buffy who'd barely

> mastered her innate Slayer fighting ability.

 

Dead wrong. The depowered ep is in late season 3, by which point Buffy has already been a Slayer for almost four years (remember, she'd been a Slayer for almost a year before coming to Sunnydale.)

 

[snip]

> Well, vs mooks I get the feeling Buffy isn't really giving her

> all. She is not very focused.

 

Cop-out of the most extreme order, and unproven assertion besides. You are arbitrarily *assuming* that Buffy was 'holding back' because you wish to *ignore* the clearly demonstrated canon that her hand-to-hand combat skills actually don't show that much skill or technique.

 

> I mean, she sort of plays around in these kind of scenes.

 

Again, proof positive that you don't know what you're talking about -- *every* single example I gave is from an episode where Buffy was operating in a completely serious mode.

 

[snip, re: Buffyvamps ignoring]

> Gunfire, yeah. Sharp cutting things and explosions? No, only

> in special cases.

 

Do you even *watch* "Angel"? Angel has been repeatedly stabbed in the chest and *ignored* it, has detonated milspec *concussion grenades* less than three feet away from his own head and gotten right back up, and Angelus once got shot so full of arrows by Holtz's men that he looked like a freaking *pincushion*, and yet since none of them had hit the heart, he barely even felt them.

 

Short of penetrating their heart with wood, cutting off their head, setting them on fire, electrocuting them, or striking them with physical force *FAR* in excess of a Slayer's (i.e. -- Glory), there are very few ways to quickly incapacitate Buffyvamps. In Champions terms, they've got obnoxious Damage Reduction, and some Resistant Defense as well.

 

[snip]

> Okay. Main point: I say, write up Buffy for (comparison to)

> CU as if she was a character in a superhero universe,

> *because that's what you're putting her in*

 

Again, if you'd bothered to pay attention to the thread, you'd have noted that shortly after I delivered my little lecture about how low-powered Buffy is, the topic of conversation then turned about how and why to, ahem, buff Buffy up to where she'd fit in the campaign.

 

The point is, however, that we acknowledge that Buffy needs *changing* to fit into the CU, because she does not fit as is.

 

You, as far as I can tell, have been arguing that Buffy *does* fit as is, and this is simply not true.

 

If you want to rewrite Buffy and up all her stats way into DEX 35/SPD 7/etc. range, hey, it's your campaign. OTOH, if you want to tell me that Joss Whedon has *already* put Buffy there, then that's *not* something you control -- that's something that would actually have to be shown on-screen, which it damn well hasn't.

 

In case you haven't figured it out by now, I like accuracy, and I don't like confusing the right to have an opinion with the (nonexistent) "right" to ignore facts in favor of wishful thinking.

 

 

 

Zornwil -- sorry, but one of the drawbacks of using the standard quote function is that it makes it very cumbersome to reply if you're trying to intersperse your own comments in response to the other guy's.

 

OTOH, I am at least trying to keep the ">" markers properly lined up and spaced, even if he ain't.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Note: I'd love to use normal quoting, but I want to respond piecemeal. It would take a lot of time to quote format it...

 

And I am trying to properly quote mark it; I do most of this typing in my 'sleepy, but not yet asleep' time.

 

>Why are they based on NCM?

>> They're human, but as you pointed out, so is Foxbat.

>

>Your argument has no logical consistency whatsoever.

>

>A moment's thought would have reminded you that even Foxbat ?>lives upon a planet where over 99.9+% of the inhabitants still have >Normal Characteristic Maxima... and we can easily see how Foxbat >stacks up against them.

>

>Do you even *use* agent-level characters in your campaign?

 

No, not really. I find the idea of agents kinda stupid; the last time was about 5 years ago, and it was CU with VIPER agents.

Then again, I prefer to set campaigns at home, and here, there just isn't the funding...

 

More to the point, however, I think an Agent level hero is a silly idea.

Heroes, whether normal human or not, *do not* get beaten as easily as 'highly trained' mooks.

 

>> NCM is a judgement call, and one I disagree with. Buffyverse

>> characters are clearly *not* limited to NCM - at least half

>> the cast can justify some form of superhuman

>> characteristics, on the basis of being metahuman...

>

>In case you weren't paying attention -- and you obviously weren't -- >you might, perhaps, have recalled that I used *XANDER* as one of my >Normal Characteristic Maxima benchmarks, re: how much faster than >him Buffy appeared to be going in turn. (Answer -- a little faster, but >not significantly faster.)

>

>And given that Xander's role on the show was to be Normal Guy...?

 

Xander is human, yes. Normal CHA Maxima?

That term is *meaningless* in a superheroic game, which is what Buffy would have to be run as. Probably low powered superheroic, but still superheroic.

 

>Sheesh. I'm trying to be polite, but it's growing harder and harder to >do so when you can't even give me the minimal courtesy of reading >what I write. Or, for that matter, of maintaining any kind of accuracy >re: Buffyverse canon...

 

I may not be expressing well, but I'd have said I was paying attention...

 

[snip]

>> The depowered ep does show a Buffy who'd barely

>> mastered her innate Slayer fighting ability.

>

>Dead wrong. The depowered ep is in late season 3, by which point >Buffy has already been a Slayer for almost four years (remember, >she'd been a Slayer for almost a year before coming to Sunnydale.)

 

And most of the power creep happened after that...

 

[snip]

>> Well, vs mooks I get the feeling Buffy isn't really giving her

>> all. She is not very focused.

>

>Cop-out of the most extreme order, and unproven assertion besides. >You are arbitrarily *assuming* that Buffy was 'holding back' because >you wish to *ignore* the clearly demonstrated canon that her hand->to-hand combat skills actually don't show that much skill or technique.

 

Then why does she do better versus the bigger threats?

Those fights, she *also* goes blow for blow.

 

Besides, what *is* a mook vampire? Power level is more or less unconnected with age, so any vampire could be a danger.

 

>> I mean, she sort of plays around in these kind of scenes.

>

>Again, proof positive that you don't know what you're talking about -- >*every* single example I gave is from an episode where Buffy was >operating in a completely serious mode.

 

Fine. You win the fanboy award...

 

[snip, re: Buffyvamps ignoring]

>> Gunfire, yeah. Sharp cutting things and explosions? No, only

>> in special cases.

>

>Do you even *watch* "Angel"? Angel has been repeatedly stabbed >in the chest and *ignored* it, has detonated milspec *concussion >grenades* less than three feet away from his own head and gotten >right back up, and Angelus once got shot so full of arrows by Holtz's >men that he looked like a freaking *pincushion*, and yet since none >of them had hit the heart, he barely even felt them.

 

No, I haven't seen that. We are behind here by multiple seasons with Angel (but finished the last series of Buffy... go figure).

 

>Short of penetrating their heart with wood, cutting off their head, >setting them on fire, electrocuting them, or striking them with >physical force *FAR* in excess of a Slayer's (i.e. -- Glory), there are >very few ways to quickly incapacitate Buffyvamps. In Champions >terms, they've got obnoxious Damage Reduction, and some Resistant >Defense as well.

 

...and I wasn't trying to include vampires anyway.

 

Sloppy writing. Apologies.

 

[snip]

>> Okay. Main point: I say, write up Buffy for (comparison to)

>> CU as if she was a character in a superhero universe,

>> *because that's what you're putting her in*

>

>Again, if you'd bothered to pay attention to the thread, you'd have >noted that shortly after I delivered my little lecture about how low->powered Buffy is, the topic of conversation then turned about how >and why to, ahem, buff Buffy up to where she'd fit in the campaign.

 

Oh god I'm being sooo unclear.

Xander does only a little worse than Riley in combat. Riley is 'best of the best' with 'supertech' drug enhancement.

Written brand new, as CU character, he would be almost guaranteed to be 26/6 or something like that. Especially in his final appearance, he's like... I dunno. Nightduck?

 

CU has (and has had as long as I've know of it) DEX and SPD inflation. You can't convert a character without taking that into account.

 

 

>The point is, however, that we acknowledge that Buffy needs >*changing* to fit into the CU, because she does not fit as is.

>

 

She needs changing to be more than, say, a starting level character.

With careful character construction, you might even get that 'Scythe' in too...

 

>You, as far as I can tell, have been arguing that Buffy *does* fit as is, >and this is simply not true.

>

>If you want to rewrite Buffy and up all her stats way into DEX 35/SPD >7/etc. range, hey, it's your campaign. OTOH, if you want to tell me >that Joss Whedon has *already* put Buffy there, then that's *not* >something you control -- that's something that would actually have >to be shown on-screen, which it damn well hasn't.

 

Personally, no, she shouldn't be DEX 35 SPD 7. I *like* the idea of her being DEX 23 SPD 5. It's what I have her mentally tagged as.

 

However, CU characters have, on average 6 extra DEX and 2 extra SPD. 9 and 3 if they're high end.

 

So, as a CU character, she gets extra DEX and SPD...

 

>

>In case you haven't figured it out by now, I like accuracy, and I don't >like confusing the right to have an opinion with the

>(nonexistent) "right" to ignore facts in favor of wishful thinking.

 

I'm not ignoring facts...

I may have ommited some by mistake...

 

[Nightfly]

Re: Sunnydale, California for Champions 5E

 

Originally posted by Mark Rand

I know that Matt's pages have the stats of Buffy & her friends (and foes) for Champions 5E. Unfortunately, due to the server company's policies, I can't get at them until November 1.

Yours,

Mark Rand

 

Can you give the link to "Matt's pages", I run my gamingverse in Neo Sunnydale (in 2377) built on the site of the historical Sunnydale.

I would like to see the writeups you refer to.

As for my Slayer(s), I basically based mine on the Surbrook (Buffy, season 4) version [from his website].

Thanks

[Chuckg]

Since it's nothing but a repeat of what I've already shredded, I'm going to ignore most of your post, but a couple things needs nailing down...

 

> Xander is human, yes. Normal CHA Maxima?

> That term is *meaningless* in a superheroic game, [snip]

 

No, it's not.

 

Even in a superheroic game, the vast majority of the NPCs are still subject to Normal Characteristic Maxima. The superheroes live on an entire planet full of people whose stats are at or below the limits set for Normal Characteristic Maxima. Six billion of them, to be precise.

 

It is *not* "meaningless", even in a Superheroic game. It's *still* the benchmark for normal, that the PCs are allowed to exceed, being Superheroic. The campaign might revolve around the PCs, but that's not the same as saying that the PCs are the only damn people in the world.

 

The fact that a Superheroic campaign allows for the existence of a SPD 6 or 7 player character does not change the fact that his DNPC Aunt May is still SPD 2... it only means that the PC is moving 3 times as often as Aunt May (SPD 6 to SPD 2), not just 2 times as often (SPD 4 to SPD 2).

 

So your logic that the term is 'meaningless'... isn't logic, isn't accurate, and isn't true -- and that's not an opinion, that's an actual fact, right there in the Big Black Book.

 

[snip]

> Xander does only a little worse than Riley in combat. Riley

> is 'best of the best' with 'supertech' drug enhancement.

 

Yet again, your opinion is completely *not* borne out by the show.

 

Remember when Xander, while under Dracula's mind control, fought Riley? Remember how long their fight lasted?

 

Riley can literally beat Xander down with one hand behind his back and with one punch... 'cause he has.

 

As far as the DCU suffering 'DEX and SPD inflation' -- again, if you have to change Buffy's character sheet to make her 'competitive', then all that is is an admission that she has to be upgraded from her currently very low level of power in order to fit in the CU... which is exactly what we've been saying all along.

[Mark Rand]

Unfortunately, fcpages, where Matt has his account, doesn't allow hot linking to free accounts, and Matt's is a free one.

Use your favorite search engine to find "the matt cave". There are links to Matt's Champions page and his Angel page, which has a lot of Buffy stuff there.

Watch out for the pop-ups and the fact that they only allow a certain amount of download on each page each month.

[Nightfly]

Some Bear Facts

 

Curiously, during a (Season 2, dvd) commentary, David Fury (a BtVS writer) referenced Buffy as "stronger than your average Bear" - obviously a reference to Yogi's old saying "Smarter than your average Bear".  Well, it got me thinking about the HERO Bestiary (one of the 1st HERO books I ever bought).

Coincidentally, Surbrook's site lists Buffy's "Slayer Strength" at 23, which just happens to also correspond to the strength rating of a (common) Black Bear.

I know this may seem unrelated, but when Buffy fought a (Chumash Indian shape-shifted into a) Grizzy Bear, she certainly wasn't kicking (or punching) it all about the room (as she does w/ normal vamps).

[Mark Rand]

The guy who wrote the sheet Nightfly's talking about (not Mike Surbrook) said that those were season four stats. He's also the person that claimed that Sarah Michelle Gellar used Tae Kwon Do.

[Nightfly]

SMG / Tae Kwon Do

 

I'm a fairly obsessive Buffyverse fan, and it's a well-known fact that SMG practices Tae Kwon Do. (Just as it's a well-publicized fact that J. Garner is a Kick Boxer).

Although Surbrook didn't personally author/convert the Buffy sheet featured on his site, I figure if its good enough for Surbrook, its good enough for me.

I personally believe Buffy did grow more powerful in later seaosns (past 4th), but her STR stat seems solid to me at 23.

I think Slayers primarily exist equal to a low-powered mutant [mostly from their resilience & visions).

 

edit -

Obviously, STR, SPD, & DEX are also prominent Slayer traits/powers,... but those stats (though varying individual to individual) IMO should still hover in the low-powered mutant level [of the sort 'common' Primus & Viper agents are geared to fight]