Sunnydale, California for Champions 5E

[Chuckg]

> Which would Bruce Wayne need more of (to have half a

> chance confronting Ms. Summers), Painkillers or Steroids???

> Cuz, Buffy would need neither to defeat Mr. Wayne.

 

Buffy will never *hit* Bruce Wayne. His DCV is higher than anything she's ever fought.

 

(I mean, sheesh, *Giles* can hit Angelus in melee combat -- remember the flaming baseball bat? Remember that Angelus is one of Buffy's highest-DCV opponents?

 

And Giles is defniitely no OCV monster.)

 

> Her Slayer Healing & Resilience alone could keep her in the

> fight for DAYS! (thanks in part to decreased need for sleep).

> What do ya got to go against that Chuck?

 

Something called an NND Nerve Strike, something else called a Throw maneuver, and something else called 'Buffy isn't going to land any punches unless Bruce takes a 1/2 DCV Concentrate'.

[Sketchpad]

Originally posted by Nightfly

Which would Bruce Wayne need more of (to have half a chance confronting Ms. Summers), Painkillers or Steroids???

Cuz, Buffy would need neither to defeat Mr. Wayne.

Her Slayer Healing & Resilience alone could keep her in the fight for DAYS! (thanks in part to decreased need for sleep).

What do ya got to go against that Chuck?

 

Well ... speaking as a fan of both, please keep some perspectives here ...

1) Batman is a master of at least 7 forms of martial arts (or so it's been said). Buffy barely has a grasp of one (which I would almost say is a weird streetfighting technique).

2) Buffy, while having some edge to her, has some vulnerabilities to toxins and poisons (as seen in the Cavegirl episode). The Bat obviously also has this weakness, but has a library of antidotes at his disposal.

3) Yes, Buffy heals quickly ... Bruce does as well (not as quickly mind you) and also has a combat medic at his disposal (aka Alfred).

4) Buffy has the Scooby Gang, a rag-tag support group of friends (with a witch) ... the Bat has the Batsquad, a group of trained heroes (with Oracle).

5) The Bat is no slouch in the strength department ... in Batman: Year One, he took down what looked like an oak tree with his bare hands/feet ... I don't know too many people who can do that. Personally, I feel that Mike Surbrook's stats on Buffy are quite accurate, labelling her with a STR 23. I would also throw the Bat around a 23/25, as well as Captain America.

6) Strengths and combat are what seem to be under constant comparison. The Bat is a tactical genius IMHO and given ten minutes to examine Buffy (which he could easily do), he would figure out weak points (both physical and social), as well as having her style of fighting detected. The man is known as the World's Greatest Detective for a reason

7) The Bat worked out how to beat the Justice League. Superman, Flash, GL, Wonder Woman, Plastic Man, Aquaman and Martian Manhunter. Could Buffy do that? She may be good, but that stake would do jack around most of the heavy hitters

Don't get me wrong ... I think the fight would be interesting for about 4 panels/10 mins ... but the Bat should dominate it after that. She can't match the experience that he's had, nor does she have quite the dedication that the Bat has. Mind you, I'm not saying she's not dedicated ... just not as much as the Bat

[Nightfly]

Sketchpad,

 

You make some excellent points.  There's no doubt Batman is smarter than Buffy, and [ultimately] that equates to the bottom line.

And I won't deny in HERO terms Bruce's DCV would be extraordinarily high,... however Slayer healing/resilience is nothing to be downplayed.  She's sustained swords ('n such) and kept on fighting; only gunshots to the chest have seemed to stop her (and that's w/out wearing any kind of body armor at all).

In 5E terms, I'm not sure Bat's CON, STR, DEX & SPD would all match [or surpass] Buffy's, or should (considering her supernatural origins).  That is, unless he's doing something beyond simply training (i.e., steroids or bionics).

I always sorta questioned why Surbrook posted Buffy w/ stats lower than cinematic heroes like Jet Li & Jackie Chan, but your points (Sketchpad) have helped shed some light on that subject.  Experience, & Deduction do factor.  I will still say that Buffy's ability to Find Weakness or Analyze Style may not be as high as some seasoned iconic heroes, but her's is inherent/mystical (as opposed to learned thru study).  I'm not saying one way/method is better than the other, just different.

[Chuckg]

> And I won't deny in HERO terms Bruce's DCV would be

> extraordinarily high,... however Slayer healing/resilience is

> nothing to be downplayed.  She's sustained swords ('n

> such)

 

Faith got the fight taken out of her by *one* stab wound in the stomach. IIRC, Buffy has taken *flesh wounds* from s

swords, that's all.

 

And yes, while Buffy's nonresistant PD is quite high, that's why God invented NND Nerve Strikes.

 

[snip]

> In 5E terms, I'm not sure Bat's CON, STR, DEX & SPD would all

> match [or surpass] Buffy's, or should (considering her

> supernatural origins).  That is, unless he's doing

> something beyond simply training (i.e., steroids or bionics).

 

In the DCU, extreme training can take you well beyond what even other comic-book universes, much less genre fiction, would consider as 'human limits'. Batman isn't even the worst offender against this principle... there's at least one character who has used intensive/exotic training alone to move in *Matrix time*.

[Nightfly]

I guess DCU has taken Batman to the level of an old-school Grand Master (which I guess I don't protest).  Question: has his training taught him defy gravity (ala Treetop Walking) w/out gear?  If, in fact, the Bat is now some sort of Wong Fei Hong or O'Sensei, I guess he can levitate, teleport, go into bullet-time, and I'd imagine Chinese (mystical) healing practices would also be within his skillset.

Geronimo, a simple shaman (not even a martial master) was rumored to be able to slow-time in and out of combat, so my mind does allow me to accept that non-supers can do extraordinary (paranormal even) things.  I just wasn't aware Bruce Wayne had attained those levels.  Thanks for the 411.

[Chuckg]

No, Nightfly, he hasn't attained the anti-gravity levels yet.

 

He has, however, shown other, less flashy Grand Master type abilities -- and mundane pressure point attacks have been repeatedly seen, both from him and other Bat-Family members (as well as old instructors of his).

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Faith got the fight taken out of her by *one* stab wound in the stomach. IIRC, Buffy has taken *flesh wounds* from swords, that's all.

After a lot of HTH combat, Faith as then stabbed in the stomach and falls off a building.

 

Very last episode of Buffy, Buffy gets stabbed.

 

However, this whole argument is a apples != oranges.

[Chuckg]

> After a lot of HTH combat,

 

Which means they had both taken some Stun damage, but not any Body damage. Both of them were still going fairly strong, seeing as how punching a Slayer -- even if you are a Slayer -- is a 'wear 'em down very gradually' situation. (Most of Faith and Buffy's fight was punch-blocked, counterpunch-blocked.)

 

> Faith as then stabbed in the stomach and falls off a building.

 

Actually, a bit off in details...

 

After the fight, Faith then stabbed in the stomach... and stops fighting. Buffy steps back and stops fighting as well.

 

Faith then stands there, wobbling slightly back and forth on her feet, clearly hoiding herself up only by sheer willpower.

 

Faith then says a couple of words, and -- choosing death before capture -- deliberately takes a step backwards off the ledge and *hops* off the building.

 

Four stories down what's left of Faith lands in a truck, hitting her head on the way down, and she won't be out of that coma until a few months later.

 

But my point is -- one stab wound to the stomach left Faith in no condition to keep fighting. The fall of the building is what put her in the coma, yes, but the gut stab is what ended the fight.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Well for a start, you can follow DC's own editorial policy and shitcan everything that's from Pre-Crisis continuity if that specific piece of info is in any way contradicted by something from Post-Crisis continuity...

 

And then you can follow DC's other editorial policy and do the same for pre- and post- Zero Hour material...

 

... and wouldn't ya know it, that takes care of most of the inconsistencies right there. (Not just for Batman, but for a lot of other DC characters as well.)

 

Which was the point of those two exercises to begin with.

 

I hope all will forgive me if I decide to go by the abilities of the writers as opposed to DC's "editorial policy" (du jour).

[zornwil]

Originally posted by lemming

After a lot of HTH combat, Faith as then stabbed in the stomach and falls off a building.

 

Very last episode of Buffy, Buffy gets stabbed.

 

However, this whole argument is a apples != oranges.

 

Of course near the end of another season Buffy is shot by a regular person (well, at least a person regular in the respect of using the gun). So that should prove she's slower than Speedy Gonzalez.

 

To me that made about as much sense as the Batman/Captain America thread and these Buffy comparisons.

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil

Of course near the end of another season Buffy is shot by a regular person (well, at least a person regular in the respect of using the gun). So that should prove she's slower than Speedy Gonzalez.

 

To me that made about as much sense as the Batman/Captain America thread and these Buffy comparisons.

Very true, but any story will throw consistancy out the window for the sake of drama.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by zornwil

I hope all will forgive me if I decide to go by the abilities of the writers as opposed to DC's "editorial policy" (du jour).

 

First off, if we can't trust the owners of the creative rights to tell us what is and isn't retconned, who can we trust?

 

I can agree with throwing out blatantly obvious writing trash -- like Hama's Batman run, that had Batman being *BULLETPROOF*, for God's sake. By all means, throw that out out OUT.

 

But they didn't do Crisis and Zero Hour just for the hell of it, they did it for the purpose of cleaning up as many continuity inconsistencies as they could manage. That in mind, if it's our goal to avoid continuity inconsistencies, we can do a lot worse than start from there.

[Chuckg]

> Of course near the end of another season Buffy is shot by a

> regular person (well, at least a person regular in the

> respect of using the gun). So that should prove she's

> slower than Speedy Gonzalez. [snip]

 

Actually, I'm entirely willing to call that one 'Warren rolled a natural 3'. Either that, or 'Buffy was at 1/2 DCV due to surprise or whatever'.

 

Seeing as how Faith has repeatedly dodged shotgun fire at point-blank range... when the shotgun was held by somebody with a notably higher OCV than Warren (specifically, Angelus)... I am more than willing to believe that Warren just got lucky. I am not arguing that Buffy isn't above NCM, remember, I'm only arguing that she's not *that far* above.

 

OTOH, the fact that Buffy was *damaged* by a single gunshot -- to the point where she went to the emergency room, dying, and required emergency intervention by Willow's magic to avoid croaking -- should resolve the question as to whether or not Slayers have Resistant PD. If a normal .38 slug can put one down, they obviously don't.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Actually, I'm entirely willing to call that one 'Warren rolled a natural 3'. Either that, or 'Buffy was at 1/2 DCV due to surprise or whatever'.

 

Seeing as how Faith has repeatedly dodged shotgun fire at point-blank range... when the shotgun was held by somebody with a notably higher OCV than Warren (specifically, Angelus)... I am more than willing to believe that Warren just got lucky. I am not arguing that Buffy isn't above NCM, remember, I'm only arguing that she's not *that far* above.

 

OTOH, the fact that Buffy was *damaged* by a single gunshot -- to the point where she went to the emergency room, dying, and required emergency intervention by Willow's magic to avoid croaking -- should resolve the question as to whether or not Slayers have Resistant PD. If a normal .38 slug can put one down, they obviously don't.

 

Buffy was shot because the story required her to be shot.

 

Whenever Buffy or Batman wins or loses, it's for that reason and that reason alone.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Of course near the end of another season Buffy is shot by a

> regular person (well, at least a person regular in the

> respect of using the gun). So that should prove she's

> slower than Speedy Gonzalez. [snip]

 

Actually, I'm entirely willing to call that one 'Warren rolled a natural 3'. Either that, or 'Buffy was at 1/2 DCV due to surprise or whatever'.

 

Seeing as how Faith has repeatedly dodged shotgun fire at point-blank range... when the shotgun was held by somebody with a notably higher OCV than Warren (specifically, Angelus)... I am more than willing to believe that Warren just got lucky. I am not arguing that Buffy isn't above NCM, remember, I'm only arguing that she's not *that far* above.

 

OTOH, the fact that Buffy was *damaged* by a single gunshot -- to the point where she went to the emergency room, dying, and required emergency intervention by Willow's magic to avoid croaking -- should resolve the question as to whether or not Slayers have Resistant PD. If a normal .38 slug can put one down, they obviously don't.

 

AAARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH

 

Or should I respond that you didn't bring up Speedy even once, so my point must be correct?

 

Of course Archer posted the real answer. This really didn't require any serious rationalization or response.

 

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Chuckg

First off, if we can't trust the owners of the creative rights to tell us what is and isn't retconned, who can we trust?

 

I can agree with throwing out blatantly obvious writing trash -- like Hama's Batman run, that had Batman being *BULLETPROOF*, for God's sake. By all means, throw that out out OUT.

 

But they didn't do Crisis and Zero Hour just for the hell of it, they did it for the purpose of cleaning up as many continuity inconsistencies as they could manage. That in mind, if it's our goal to avoid continuity inconsistencies, we can do a lot worse than start from there.

 

As to your first question, I trust good writers, period.

 

As to the rest of it, I really have no interest in exploring what a comic book company claims it's canon is, given that they are a commercial enterprise and will continue to change it as needed. While it's all well and good to explore characters and figure out what their abilities would be in HERO terms and to trash talk that Green Lantern can take out Dr. Strange, trying to get into the details of various stories and derive some consistent singular truth is not merely futile but in my view ludicrous.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Nightfly

Sketchpad,

 

You make some excellent points.  There's no doubt Batman is smarter than Buffy, and [ultimately] that equates to the bottom line.

And I won't deny in HERO terms Bruce's DCV would be extraordinarily high,... however Slayer healing/resilience is nothing to be downplayed.  She's sustained swords ('n such) and kept on fighting; only gunshots to the chest have seemed to stop her (and that's w/out wearing any kind of body armor at all).

In 5E terms, I'm not sure Bat's CON, STR, DEX & SPD would all match [or surpass] Buffy's, or should (considering her supernatural origins).  That is, unless he's doing something beyond simply training (i.e., steroids or bionics).

I always sorta questioned why Surbrook posted Buffy w/ stats lower than cinematic heroes like Jet Li & Jackie Chan, but your points (Sketchpad) have helped shed some light on that subject.  Experience, & Deduction do factor.  I will still say that Buffy's ability to Find Weakness or Analyze Style may not be as high as some seasoned iconic heroes, but her's is inherent/mystical (as opposed to learned thru study).  I'm not saying one way/method is better than the other, just different.

 

I'd agree that on the whole Batman should have some stats lower than Buffy, particularly CON, but STR only by a little (if at all in HERO terms). I would think Batman's SPD would be faster and DEX would be higher, primarily through training, but not by much on both counts. In fact, I could also easily imagine Batman being built and being close enough to the comic book with skills and talents but a DEX lower than Buffy's. SPD I would reserve for Batman only because that's the sort of edge where I think a lot of the big-time heroes, even if they are not technically super-human, go well beyond normal characteristic maxima. It explains how they run through gunfire and take out 10 thugs in short order, to me anyway.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Sketchpad

4) Buffy has the Scooby Gang, a rag-tag support group of friends (with a witch) ... the Bat has the Batsquad, a group of trained heroes (with Oracle).

 

Just to pick a nit, Buffy now has access to a whole group of manifest Slayers actually.

[Kristopher]

Zornwill makes a very good point.

 

One of my continuing problems with the insistance on being "true to the comics" is that the comics are not true to themselves. Contintuity and consitency mean a great deal. More than once I've been told that you "can't let that stuff get in the way of a good story."

 

"That stuff" is key to a good story in an ongoing format such as a comic book.

[lemming]

Originally posted by zornwil

Just to pick a nit, Buffy now has access to a whole group of manifest Slayers actually.

Speaking of which, why haven't we seen any mention of this on Angel?

[sinanju]

Originally posted by Mark Rand

On Stargate SG-1, it's been stated that the gate breaks down matter into subatomic particles, sends it, as a charged matter stream, through another dimension, to another stargate, where the matter is reassembled....

 

Which is, in my opinion, one of the stupider, Trek-influenced retcons they've made on that show. The gate was originally a womrhole--you know, a shortcut around normal space. Now it's a big, cumbersome, fixed-focus Trek-style transporter. Boo! Hisssssss!

 

But then, they've succumbed to a lot of Trek-type generic technobabble (and lots of spaceships) in the last two or three seasons, so I guess I'm not all that surprised.

 

Or interested, anymore. I've watched like one and half episodes of hte current season.

[Nightfly]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> But my point is -- one stab wound to the stomach left Faith in no condition to keep fighting. The fall of the building is what put her in the coma, yes, but the gut stab is what ended the fight.

 

To be more precise, Slayer's are known to be stronger than Vamps... Buffy delivered Faith's gut wound (a particularly hard wound to shrug off no matter who you are, provided one has a stomach of course) with the storied strength of a Slayer.  During (or just preceding) the frozen moments you mentioned, while Buffy and Faith talked, I've always believed Buffy twisted the (considerable) knife, since her goal was to kill Faith.

 

So,.. after being stabbed in the gut by the strength of a Slayer, and sustaining a direct head blow from falling off a (three or) four story building, she still required but a regenerative rest / sleep (i.e., coma)

to come back

[Nightfly]

Originally posted by lemming

Speaking of which, why haven't we seen any mention of this on Angel?

 

Mutant Enemy has stated that the 'Slayer Army' will be mentioned upcoming on Angel.  I'm personally hoping a whole epi will be focused around it (the mention).  Perhaps that'll be the show Willow guests on / about.

[Chuckg]

*shrugs*

 

Obviously, if everybody else wants to use vastly differing standards of judging canon and I can't persuade them to do otherwise, there's no point in my continuing to try.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Mark Rand

Good points from members of our learned group.

According to Buffy's character sheet, as written by James Gillen and posted on Mike Surbrook's site, she is a heroic-level character. He also created a special martial arts form for Slayers. The maneuvers listed are, to quote him, "...based on Tae Kwon Do, the style actually used by Sarah Michelle Gellar".

In order for a Slayer to work in a superhero universe, they need to be rewritten as a low-powered superhero. How would we do this?

I also agree that there should be more than one. How many should there be and how does the Trismegistus Council decide where they go?

Does each Slayer have her own Watcher?

Who trains the Slayers?

How do other supers and law enforcement agencies react to them?

If there's a Slayer in the Gotham area, how would Batman react to her?

 

Thanks for mentioning the writeup!

 

Some points:

1. I wrote the way I did deliberately. As I said, Buffy really isn't "Spider-Man strong"; she can bend a gun barrel but not lift a car. In Season 6 she WAS able to lift a construction girder like a cheap stage prop. I don't think she's at STR 30 yet.

2. One thing I apparently need to do is get cracking on the other writeups, especially the writeups for Buffyverse vampires. That would establish an appropriate point of comparison. See, Buffyverse vampires are weak even in comparison to White Wolf VAMPIRE characters (who have a much wider range of magical powers). Dracula is the only one who can change shape, for instance.

By the same token, normals in the series are exactly that: NORMAL. A VIPER Agent (with 13-15 stats) would be on elite commando level, if not Initiative level. And yet, someone like Willow (who can't have any more than a 13 DEX) is able to stake a vamp by levitating a pencil into his back. Thus, Buffy and most of her opponents really aren't on that much higher CV/SPD level than the normals, even if a few characters (like Glory) are on a legitimately superhero Strength/defense level. Now that I think of it, I agree that Buffy really doesn't fight that efficiently if she does get hit a lot; I was worrying that giving her only 2 HTH levels and Martial Arts was being too stingy. Her defenses have the inherent limitations of Combat Luck and Martial Artist Damage Reduction (must make EGO Roll, must see the attack)- which helps to explain why Warren almost killed her with a surprise attack that she might have dodged or shrugged off in other circumstances.

3. And then, of course, archer is right when he says that it all depends on what the writers want at the time. That's why Buffy got shot up so easily, that's why Willow wasn't able to save Tara with the same resurrection spell she used on Buffy, and that's why Xander is only combat effective half of the time.

4. For that matter, the Buffy genre may be one of the least friendly to HERO rules that there is. Really, you're better off using the EDEN Studios game, given that its rules allow for plot-device magic and the possibility of Buffy's friends being able to survive threats that could pose a serious threat to her. Of course, one fun thing about being a HERO player is engaging in the engineering exercise of seeing how it could work.

5. When I glanced at the first page of this thread, I kinda ignored it and moved on, but a friend told me my writeup had been mentioned. I think it misses the point to put Buffyverse characters in Champions terms. We don't think of Jackie Chan, James Bond or other 'action heroes' as being on the same level as Captain America, Batman or the Justice League, but that's what's being suggested by putting the Buffy characters into a standard-level Champions universe. Dark Champions, maybe. Birds of Prey (if it were good) certainly. The evidence that I and others have presented demonstrates that the power levels are completely different, even for ostensible 'normals.' The point was made that if the Dark Knight-Batman was a low-budget TV show, it'd be about on that level (again, Birds of Prey).

In other words, the 'Buffyverse' would be on Heroic level, even if some characters have superpowers. That's why I gave Buffy Normal Characteristic Maxima as a no-point standard, even if she (as opposed to non-Slayers) can justify buying stats above 20. Otherwise, it'd be too easy to bring her to a Characteristic standard that she really hasn't demonstrated in the series. By realistic standards, she IS superhuman, but if you're running superhero games where Captain America and frickin' Seeker can be "nonpowered" humans with STR of 25 and DEX of 26+, then the Slayer as shown on the series isn't that tough. By the same token, I don't think Buffyverse vampires would even be as tough as the vampire in HERO System Bestiary. So the crossover depends on whether you want it to be a Superhero game or a Heroic level game. If it's superhero level, a Slayer should be at least on Seeker's level, if not Captain America's. But I defined B:tVS as Heroic level for the reasons given. If you're bringing superheroes into that genre, they should have Normal Characteristic Maxima except for those with actual superpowers (buying superstrength as a Power, etc.) and, yes, Buffy's 18-23 range of physical stats SHOULD make her tougher than Batman if she's supernaturally powered and he's not.

6. At the same time, I'm perfectly aware that Batman has come up with contingency plans against Justice League teammates who far exceed him in powers, so I'm not even getting into the Buffy vs. Batman debate.

 

JG