Sunnydale, California for Champions 5E

[zornwil]

FWIW, the Buffy in my Champions game is hyped up quite a bit to be competitive with other supers, as is, to a lesser extent, the Scooby Gang.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Chuckg

*shrugs*

 

Obviously, if everybody else wants to use vastly differing standards of judging canon and I can't persuade them to do otherwise, there's no point in my continuing to try.

 

You're stuck with the mental assumption that there is a canon, that Joss and co. have a character sheet for Buffy somewhere that determines everything. As regards continuity of events, BtVS is one of the best shows out there, but as I said several times already, what happens to Buffy is whatever the writers think will make a good story. One episode she kicks the ass of three big vamps, another she gets hers kicked by a normal. Same thing happens to just about any character in comics, movies, TV, or any other fiction medium.

 

As far as your continuing to try.... you've discovered the perils of arguing on the Internet.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by archer

You're stuck with the mental assumption that there is a canon, that Joss and co. have a character sheet for Buffy somewhere that determines everything. As regards continuity of events, BtVS is one of the best shows out there, but as I said several times already, what happens to Buffy is whatever the writers think will make a good story. One episode she kicks the ass of three big vamps, another she gets hers kicked by a normal. Same thing happens to just about any character in comics, movies, TV, or any other fiction medium.

 

That's a pet peeve of mine about a lot of popular fiction. The lack of continuity and consitency is disgusting.

[James Gillen]

What archer said. Keep in mind that in the SAME episode ('Seeing Red', Season 6) Buffy took a back injury fighting a mook vampire, because of which it was hard for her to fight off Spike's assault later, yet after that, the same night she was able to fight SuperWarren to a standstill until she could destroy his power source, and the morning after, Warren shot and almost killed her (again, even with my fairly conservative write-up Buffy might have been able to dodge or roll with the attack if she'd seen it coming).

 

If it's possible to use 'vastly differing standards of canon', it's because different standards of canon exist.

 

JG

[Nightfly]

Not to be a contrarian, but there actually is a (so-called canon) Buffy sheet [endorsed by Joss & Co.) via the BtVS RPG.

 

Assuming the right genius (properly) converted EDEN's Unisystem, there would then be an unarguable (baseline) Buffy sheet for discussing.

 

Buffy RPG

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by Nightfly

Not to be a contrarian, but there actually is a (so-called canon) Buffy sheet [endorsed by Joss & Co.) via the BtVS RPG.

 

Assuming the right genius (properly) converted EDEN's Unisystem, there would then be an unarguable (baseline) Buffy sheet for discussing.

 

Buffy RPG

 

Ok, according to the Core Rulebook writeup, Buffy at the end of Season 5 has a Strength of 8. In BUFFY/Unisystem, Str scores of 6-10 have a lift capacity as follows:

200 x (Strength -5) +250 lbs.

in Buffy's case, Strength is 8, minus 5 is 3, so:

(200 x 3 = 600) +250 lbs. = 850 lbs.

 

which is slightly less than the 400 kg/880 lb. lift capacity that you get with a Hero STR of 20. This is actually less than the 23 STR I gave her for Season 4.

 

JG

[zornwil]

Originally posted by James Gillen

Ok, according to the Core Rulebook writeup, Buffy at the end of Season 5 has a Strength of 8. In BUFFY/Unisystem, Str scores of 6-10 have a lift capacity as follows:

200 x (Strength -5) +250 lbs.

in Buffy's case, Strength is 8, minus 5 is 3, so:

(200 x 3 = 600) +250 lbs. = 850 lbs.

 

which is slightly less than the 400 kg/880 lb. lift capacity that you get with a Hero STR of 20. This is actually less than the 23 STR I gave her for Season 4.

 

JG

 

What about "punching strength", i.e., the ability to inflict damage by punching - how does that compare and what would that look like in HERO?

[Nightfly]

plus with the wildcard Drama Points, it can get kinda wiggly

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by zornwil

What about "punching strength", i.e., the ability to inflict damage by punching - how does that compare and what would that look like in HERO?

 

Hand-To-Hand Attack.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Hand-To-Hand Attack.

 

Are you saying Eden has the same construct? I don't know anything about the system. If a system doesn't have a specific hand-strike then I assume it's driven off of a characteristic (often strength of course) and was thinking then that it would be another point of comparison to HERO strength. You know how some (actually presumably most) have a different scale for damage as opposed to lift compared to HERO.

[Chris Goodwin]

For most games, if you use lift strength as your only criterion, you don't get an accurate conversion.

 

If you'll note, in Unisystem, human stats max out at 6. Plugging that into the formula gives us 450 pounds = ~200 kilograms = STR 15.

 

Better, when converting, to go with relative numbers. Buffy, at Unisystem Strength 8, is effectively one Success Level higher than human maximum, which would probably convert to Hero STR 25. I would probably go with 30, just because to me she seems about that strong. I'll note that Mathew Ignash gave her that level of STR.

 

[geek]

 

Note that in episode 6.05, she lifted an I-beam weighing "quite a few hundred pounds." She toted it around with what appears to have been Casual Strength. Assuming "quite a few" means "slightly greater than four", we can call it 200 kilograms, STR 15. Casual Strength is half full Strength, so we're again looking at 30.

 

[/geek]

 

Edit: I have to admit, I don't understand the apparent aversion to giving her superhuman stats. She has demonstrated superhuman Strength, at the very minimum, both in her actions (as one example, lifting an I-beam as though it were nothing) and in other people's reactions to her (calling her a superhero, remarking on her obviously superhuman strength, etc.).

[Nightfly]

although Archer seems to have won the (genius) prize for Uni-conversion,... I personally feel more comfortable going with the (Surbrook posted) baseline STR of 23.

I do believe an experienced Slayer should also hover around (a max) 30 STR, but I'd prefer it reach 30 (from either 23 or 25) in the form of a seperate Aid STR power.  However I must go with your premise of her cas-strength being [around] 15.

 

Here's a question to ponder,... in figuring Slayer STR (post Chosen) might each among the *new* Slayer Army have slightly less (potent) attributes; since it has o be 'shared' by so many??  Perhaps by that rationale, Slayers made (post Chosen) would have STR more in the 23 range.

[Chuckg]

Archer -- my 'aversion' is to giving her highly superhuman DEX and SPD, as her performance just doesn't bear it out. I'm more than willing to give her superhuman nonresistant PD and STR.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by zornwil

What about "punching strength", i.e., the ability to inflict damage by punching - how does that compare and what would that look like in HERO?

 

In the Core Rulebook, base damage for a Punch is Strength x2 in Life Points. "Kung Fu" is simply the skill that adds to Dexterity to determine how well you hit. Other manuevers (e.g. Kick) increase the difficulty by 1 or 2 to increase the Strength base by 1 or 2.

Life Points are on a scale where a non-combatant (like Willow) has 26, Buffy in Season 5 has 101, and the average vamp has around 50. However, stakes and crossbow bolts to the heart do x5 damage vs. vampires.

 

JG

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Archer -- my 'aversion' is to giving her highly superhuman DEX and SPD, as her performance just doesn't bear it out. I'm more than willing to give her superhuman nonresistant PD and STR.

 

Do you have some kind of Dex-O-Meter that tells you everyone's DEX and SPD?

 

Okay, sarcasm aside:

 

(a) She is superhuman which means she could have superhuman DEX and SPD;

 

( She has massive amounts of both training and experience in hand-to-hand combat, not just actual fighting but having to react quickly, make split-second life or death decisions, and so forth;

 

© How much DEX and SPD should a person have in order to neutralize an Initiative patrol (themselves highly combat trained) in 28 seconds?

[Mark Rand]

The idea that the Slayer is a Jedi Knight comes from Distant Destiny, a story by Doc, at fanfiction.net.

Aside from the Slayer herself, what would the Gotham City vamp-hunting team consist of?

Given that the city's population is over $14,000,000 and there is an active Hellmouth there, should Gotham have more than one Slayer?

[Mark Rand]

Sorry, I ment 14,000,000, not $14,000,000.

[Chris Goodwin]

I once read a fanfic about Buffy, Princess of Amber, that I thought was pretty cute.

[Chuckg]

> Do you have some kind of Dex-O-Meter that tells you

> everyone's DEX and SPD?

 

Didn't I already have this argument? Scroll to the beginning of the thread...

 

Or for the short version, try the sentence "I know which cast members are still normal humans or mostly so, and how well Buffy looks next to them."

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by archer

I once read a fanfic about Buffy, Princess of Amber, that I thought was pretty cute.

 

"The Unicorn and the Slayer", by M Scott Eiland?

 

http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=213842

 

I thought it was excellent as well. Especially since it used Bleys, one of my fave Princes of Amber.

[Nightfly]

Let's not forget Buffy bounces off walls (on occasion), and sometimes uses awesome dexterous acrobatics to slip punches, dodge attacks, etc.

 

Anyone who really wants to judge Buffy should consider her beating a bonafide (albiet somewhat disabled) Hell God, and of course Caleb.

 

I think Buffy's training has taught her a kind of Ch'i Focusing which kicks in when she really needs it.

[Chuckg]

> Anyone who really wants to judge Buffy should consider her

> beating a bonafide (albiet somewhat disabled) Hell God,

 

Buffy took on Glory mano-a-mano twice that I can recall... and Glory casually slapped the snot out of her each time.

 

The one matchup that Buffy won required:

 

a) Glory to be suffering a big weakening effect from the Orb

 

Glory to be suffering an even bigger weakening effect from Willow's spell

 

c) Glory to already have used up a lot of her large but finite END reserve fighting the Buffybot

 

d) Glory to get whacked with a wrecking ball

 

*and*

 

e) Glory to take about twenty hits from Buffy's shiny new Super-Troll-Hammer artifact weapon.

 

Left to her own devices, Buffy vs. Glory = Buffy gets curbstomped.

 

> and of course Caleb.

 

Granted, I can't explain Caleb, except to gripe that the writers were in a hurry and completely forgot that the SOB was supposed to be a lot more invulnerable than that. Or I can blame the Magical-Super-Slayer-Booster-Axe.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Chuckg

"The Unicorn and the Slayer", by M Scott Eiland?

 

http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=213842

 

I thought it was excellent as well. Especially since it used Bleys, one of my fave Princes of Amber.

 

Yes, that's the one.

[Nightfly]

Chuckg,

 

Why is it so offensive for you to concede that Willow & Xander were Competents and Buffy is a low-powered Heroic... not even Legendary (i.e., Superheroic)???

 

Riley was simply a borderline upper level Competent / lower level Heroic

 

[as per Champions characteristics descriptions)

 

Obviously, most people would concede that Batman is a borderline Heroic / Superheroic (i.e., upper level Heroic / lower level Superheroic.

 

What's your complaint with that?

[Chuckg]

> Why is it so offensive for you to concede that Willow &

> Xander were Competents and Buffy is a low-powered

> Heroic... not even Legendary (i.e., Superheroic)???

 

Why is it so hard for you to realize that I'm not arguing that Buffy shouldn't have any Superheroic stats, I'm arguing that she shouldn't have *that many* Superheroic stats?

 

[snip]

> Obviously, most people would concede that Batman is a

> borderline Heroic / Superheroic (i.e., upper level Heroic /

> lower level Superheroic.

 

Obviously not, 'cause he's obviously at least a 700-point character.

 

For example -- even Slayers have to Abort to Dodge to deal with shotgun fire at point-blank range. Batman doesn't even bother, his DCV and Combat Luck alone are enough to ignore the incoming.