Guest WhammeWhamme Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by Chuckg Since it's nothing but a repeat of what I've already shredded, I'm going to ignore most of your post, but a couple things needs nailing down... > Xander is human, yes. Normal CHA Maxima? > That term is *meaningless* in a superheroic game, [snip] No, it's not. Even in a superheroic game, the vast majority of the NPCs are still subject to Normal Characteristic Maxima. The superheroes live on an entire planet full of people whose stats are at or below the limits set for Normal Characteristic Maxima. Six billion of them, to be precise. It is *not* "meaningless", even in a Superheroic game. It's *still* the benchmark for normal, that the PCs are allowed to exceed, being Superheroic. The campaign might revolve around the PCs, but that's not the same as saying that the PCs are the only damn people in the world. The fact that a Superheroic campaign allows for the existence of a SPD 6 or 7 player character does not change the fact that his DNPC Aunt May is still SPD 2... it only means that the PC is moving 3 times as often as Aunt May (SPD 6 to SPD 2), not just 2 times as often (SPD 4 to SPD 2). So your logic that the term is 'meaningless'... isn't logic, isn't accurate, and isn't true -- and that's not an opinion, that's an actual fact, right there in the Big Black Book. Originally posted by Chuckg Perhaps I shouldn't have assumed you would understand what I meant... There is no reason to assume Xander is a NCM character. He is hardly 'the average man', even if that is the role he plays on the show. As you so kindly point out, he fights the vampires and the demons to reasonable effect. You're applying a standard to Buffy conversions that was not applied to CU characters. You're capping DEXes at 20-something without good reason. Originally posted by Chuckg [snip] > Xander does only a little worse than Riley in combat. Riley > is 'best of the best' with 'supertech' drug enhancement. Yet again, your opinion is completely *not* borne out by the show. Remember when Xander, while under Dracula's mind control, fought Riley? Remember how long their fight lasted? Riley can literally beat Xander down with one hand behind his back and with one punch... 'cause he has. As far as the DCU suffering 'DEX and SPD inflation' -- again, if you have to change Buffy's character sheet to make her 'competitive', then all that is is an admission that she has to be upgraded from her currently very low level of power in order to fit in the CU... which is exactly what we've been saying all along. You were the one who posited Xander was effective in combat, compared to Buffy (and therefore every other character...) If he *is* massively inferior, then his lame SPD 3-4 ass can go back to being irrelevant as a comparision. So, what is it? Is Xander waaay outclassed in SPD, or not? The SPD and DEX inflation is relative to *the descriptions*. CU characters all move much faster than their descriptions would indicate. (assuming, of course, that real world people *are* limited to NCM) The 'official' 4th way to convert between heroic and superheroic campaigns was to change CV and SPD by 2. I mean, take the exact same character background (which is the equivalent of 'what you see on the show...'), and change from one to the other, and the DEX and SPD changes. Not because the character is faster, but because they are now allowed to move away from realism. Since description and 'how they operate in the source material' are one and the same... A character with superhuman quickness should be faster than is humanly possibly. By definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Buffy is superhuman. I'm not certain why you (Chuckg) are claiming she's so low powered. I'm not going to claim that therefore she must have DEX higher than 20, but she's certainly not limited to 20. And I'm definitely not certain why you are saying she's unskilled. It's not like we don't ever see scenes of her training, and she's got a hell of a lot of combat experience under her belt. Unskilled, my foot. I think that where this all breaks down is this: How tough is Buffy? How fast is she? The answer is exactly as tough or as fast as is needed by the story. The writers don't sit around with Buffy's character sheet going "Okay, her STR is 30, so she can do this much damage, so she knocks out that vampire there, but she's only DEX 20 and SPD 4 so this other vampire gets to whack on her..." You also seem to be postulating a level of consistency in fight choreography that might not be there. If they could consistently show differences in power level, it might be a little different, but their abilities to choreograph the fight scenes are pretty subjective, and differ greatly based on who is directing and even writing the episode, who the stunt people are, how much of the fight the actor is doing herself, who exactly is directing the choreography, and so on. The best that you can really do here is pull numbers out of your ass, just like everyone else is doing. So, for the game, you figure out where you want to put Buffy and give her numbers to match. Your benchmark should change depending on whether you're statting her out for the Buffyverse or for the Champions Universe or for some hypothetical crossover with Batman. And no, I won't ever, not in a million years, buy that Foxbat is physically equal to or tougher than Buffy. Not ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Following up my own posting. Something I can't believe I forgot to mention is that Buffy is in a different medium from Batman. Buffy is pretty clearly a television superhero (Champions 5th edition pp. 15-16) with everything that implies, including an effects budget. Scale the Dark Knight's character sheet down in accordance with those guidelines, and tell me when TV Batman reaches season 7. (No, not fair to compare Batman after umpty-hundred issues with Buffy and seven seasons.) Of course, if we really wanted to be fair, we could compare Buffy to Adam West.... stop choking and gagging, folks. Anyway, to follow up one of the things I mentioned in my previous posting, when Buffy meets Batman, who wins depends on exactly the factor I mentioned, namely what does the story require? Note that in the interminable discussions involving Batman's power level, it comes out that in one issue with one writer he is challenged by three thugs, while in another issue with another writer he mops up on guys who are clearly superior power-wise. (Buffy has been in the same boat once or twice as I recall.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Rand Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 This morning, I realized that the Buffy/Angel Champions stats are to let us play in the Buffyverse using Champions rules, not bring her, as is, into a Champions game. As far as the Council of the Watchers and the Trismegistus Council being the same thing, I doubt it. The Watchers don't want anyone else hunting vamps and have no problem sending a hit squad to deal with anyone who gets in their way. Fortunately for the world, the Trismegistus Council has been dealing with most of the world's vamps, not the Watchers Council. The Trismegistus Council becomes the Watchers Council after season seven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Hey, for some real fun, how about you post Buffy vs Batman in the NonGaming discussion area... (just kidding, if you don't know what I mean, check out the Batman vs Captain America thread there) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Rand Posted November 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Here is a slightly modified version of Gotham's Slayer and her associates. An 18-year old Slayer/Jedi Knight who carries her lightsaber, but doesn't use it on undead mooks. All they get is stakes. Her mother, a Jedi Knight (or is it Jedi Master) who, after coming to Earth 30-years ago, trained her daughter as a Jedi. She only accompanys her daughter on world-threatening missions. Two mother-daughter teams of Amazon warriors, who alternate teaming up with the Slayer. A sorceress with an 80 point VPP, who only uses her magic on major undead. Their Watcher, a computer and research expert who almost never goes on patrol. Comment is invited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil Hey, for some real fun, how about you post Buffy vs Batman in the NonGaming discussion area... (just kidding, if you don't know what I mean, check out the Batman vs Captain America thread there) But who would think Buffy would win? Not me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by WhammeWhamme But who would think Buffy would win? Not me... If the story required Buffy to win, she would win. It's more likely that they would do the stereotypical "fight until they realize they're on the same side" thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Originally posted by WhammeWhamme But who would think Buffy would win? Not me... I'm sure somebody will come out of the woodwork to state the case. But not me, either. Hey, maybe we should post it just to see a thread with no debate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Is there a Buffy comic book? I think there is, but I've never read one. I know about "Fray". Anyway.... Batman, having fought opponents tougher than Buffy for decades, would surely beat comic book Buffy. Consider that he's got hundreds of issues of his various comic titles. Then again, in crossoverland... didn't Spider-Man once beat Superman? Bottom line is, the winner is whoever the writers want to win. If you take TV Buffy vs. TV Batman, Buffy walks all over Adam West, even if it's first season Buffy vs. final season Batman. If there were a hypothetical new Batman TV series, taking season 1 Batman against season 7 Buffy, Buffy would probably walk all over him. Consider that Buffy has seven seasons of kicking ass against opponents tougher than hypothetical TV Batman. Movie Batman (Michael Keaton) vs. Movie Buffy? My money's on Bats. Kristie Swanson might kick Val Kilmer's ass, much as I hate to admit it; I have no idea about George Clooney as I haven't seen his flick, but I assume he'd walk all over her. Any other comparison is apples and oranges in the worst way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Whamme -- there is a way that both statements: 1) 'Buffy is physically only a little ahead of Xander SPD-wise(*), not way ahead of Xander' and 2) 'Xander fights vampires and demons in the Buffyverse to at least some useful effect' ... can both be true simultaneously. And that is, if the vampires and demons in the Buffyverse are also relatively wimpy specimens when compared to standard supervillain power levels. Which is only the God's honest truth. Compare the average Buffyvamp to, oh, Marvel Comics vampires, and it becomes crystal clear. (*) Note for those who don't bother to read -- that's "SPD-wise". STR-wise, DEX-wise, and PD-wise, Buffy's all over Xander like white on rice, got it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfly Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Any 1st year comic fan knows that Batman is endowed w/ exactly "0" super-powers. The only real debate is whether Batman's gadgets could kick anybody's (super-powered) ass, cuz we know Batman [naked] sure couldn't. Buffy is indeed endowed w/ super-human Strength, Speed, & Agility. To my logic, that ends the debate. One is a real (paranormal) Superhero, the other is a white-hat vigilante with a gadget-filled belt (and lots of acrobatics training). Nuff Said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 > Any 1st year comic fan knows that Batman is endowed w/ > exactly "0" super-powers. [snip] And any 2nd-year comics fan knows that intensive training and martial arts skills can make up for that, as a lot of titles -- in both companies -- have devoted considerable time to proving. The logic of 'anybody with any metahuman stats, however marginal, can kick Batman's butt sans utility belt because they're metahuman and he's not' is way, way, over-simplistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Whamme -- one other thing. The fact that *Sarah Michelle Gellar* knows Tae Kwon Do doesn't do a goddamn thing either way to show that *Buffy Summers* also uses TKD... and looking at what she does on the show, she doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfly Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Batman = CSI Gotham (on steroids) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Rand Posted November 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 On Stargate SG-1, it's been stated that the gate breaks down matter into subatomic particles, sends it, as a charged matter stream, through another dimension, to another stargate, where the matter is reassembled. Since the Hellmouth is also a dimentional gate, how close can they be without effecting each other? I'd like to have them 35-miles apart. Are they too close? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Nightfly Batman = CSI Gotham (on steroids) Nightfly = obviously doesn't know a damn thing about Batman canon and is operating solely off of preconveived notions and popular prejudices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Nightfly Any 1st year comic fan knows that Batman is endowed w/ exactly "0" super-powers. The only real debate is whether Batman's gadgets could kick anybody's (super-powered) ass, cuz we know Batman [naked] sure couldn't. Buffy is indeed endowed w/ super-human Strength, Speed, & Agility. To my logic, that ends the debate. One is a real (paranormal) Superhero, the other is a white-hat vigilante with a gadget-filled belt (and lots of acrobatics training). Nuff Said. Actually, the real debate is whether the Bat's analytical mind could play havoc with someone who's still a kid on some level. Honestly, I think a better fight would be Bats vs. Angelus ... at least he'd be a challenge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 True, although not as much of an intellectual challenge as the Joker is... ... and, since Angelus is undead, Batman's Code vs. Killing absolutely does not apply. I.e. -- Batman gets to work out all of his sublimated desire to obliterate the Joker *on* Angelus. (Unless somebody tells him about the soul/no-soul thing, at which point Batman pulls out the phone and hits Dr. Fate, Jason Blood, Zatanna, etc. on speed-dial...) *ew* "Bruce, I know he was pretty sick, but... strafing runs from the Batwing? Hellfire *missiles*?!?" "Hh." (Seriously, while Angelus would be an entertaining Batman villain, and he'd be superior to the second-string lineup, he wouldn't be any tougher for Batman to deal with than the first-string lineup already is... i.e., good stories, but no Batman wipeout.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfly Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Chuckg Nightfly = obviously doesn't know a damn thing about Batman canon and is operating solely off of preconveived notions and popular prejudices. I bet you bought into the DC (crossover) issue wherein Bruce Wayne beat Spawn too. Fanboys:rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 > I bet you bought into the DC (crossover) issue wherein > Bruce Wayne beat Spawn too. Never read it, and thank you for adding yet another data point to the growing pile of evidence confirming that on this issue, you're more than happy to let assumptions and prejudices substitute for knowing what you're talking about. And you are no closer to proving your point that any metahuman can beat down Batman just because they're metahuman than were an hour ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by Chuckg Nightfly = obviously doesn't know a damn thing about Batman canon and is operating solely off of preconveived notions and popular prejudices. I dunno, Batman really has been written all over the place, I think you do have to pick "which" Batman you feel is "the" Batman. I would defy anyone to reconcile the various incarnations in any reasonable way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil I dunno, Batman really has been written all over the place, I think you do have to pick "which" Batman you feel is "the" Batman. I would defy anyone to reconcile the various incarnations in any reasonable way. Well for a start, you can follow DC's own editorial policy and shitcan everything that's from Pre-Crisis continuity if that specific piece of info is in any way contradicted by something from Post-Crisis continuity... And then you can follow DC's other editorial policy and do the same for pre- and post- Zero Hour material... ... and wouldn't ya know it, that takes care of most of the inconsistencies right there. (Not just for Batman, but for a lot of other DC characters as well.) Which was the point of those two exercises to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfly Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 Which would Bruce Wayne need more of (to have half a chance confronting Ms. Summers), Painkillers or Steroids??? Cuz, Buffy would need neither to defeat Mr. Wayne. Her Slayer Healing & Resilience alone could keep her in the fight for DAYS! (thanks in part to decreased need for sleep). What do ya got to go against that Chuck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfly Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 the only chance Batman would have would be with a Sniper Rifle (or other ballistic firearm).... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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