Going First

[psyber624]

While thinking about the rules today I am starting to wonder if "going first" is really any advantage in combat. Because of the way the Combat Modifiers rules work (they remain in effect till the start of your phase) and the abort rules work (you cannot take two actions in the same phase so you cannot abort in a segment if you have already taken an action that segment.) it would seem to be highly advantageous to go LAST in combat.

 

If i go last, and I am attacked earlier in that phase, I can abort to a defensive move (going to use dodge as my example here). On the next segment where I get a phase my bonuses will apply till everyone else has attacked (since I go last). I can then attack at the end of the phase, and will be able to abort again before anyone has a chance to attack me. Therefore I can keep my "defensive" bonuses up vs all attacks (baring Held Actions, but I can also Hold an Action, and RAW the high DEX guy will still normally be forced to go before me if we both hold "till end of the phase" (he will win the DEX roll). I wont get into (Hold until he attacks) shenanigans here since that has nothing to do with who goes first/last in a segment (since we both can do the same thing).

 

If I go first I either A. Have to attack now and become vulnerable to attack for the rest of this segment. B. Defend now even tho no one is attacking me (and thus I don't do anything) C. Hold my action, although someone going last can also hold their action so this is not a benefit (and since I have to state what I am holding for this is actually a small hindrance).

 

Of course negative combat modifiers are still in place as well as positive ones, but the guy going last still has the option to abort his next phase, and the guy going first does not.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Assuming I am not, what is the best way to deal with this? I really feel like going first should be an advantage, but I don't see how it is right now. At the very least I feel that "winning the DEX roll" should let you decide if you want to go first or last, not force you to go first.

[Kirby]

Re: Going First

 

I don't remember what game it was (White Wolf, Star Wars [d6], L5R, or something else), but there was a rule on initiative where the slowest person announced their actions first. This way, the fastest person could respond to all those slower and the slowest didn't receive any bonuses. In a play-by-e-mail or play-by-post game, this wouldn't work so well with HERO; however, in a face-to-face game, you could work this for every two to three phases, maybe (announce actions for phases 1, 2 and 3, then roll them).

 

In a 1-on-1 scenario of two people with the same Speed and different DEXes, then the higher DEX person has a slight advantage. If both players are balanced with roughly the same defenses, attacks and combat values, (Say, 18 DEX & 19 DEX) then the higher DEX gets a chance to CON-STUN the slower player first. Should this happen, the slower person has to use his action to Recover. In a drag-down-fist-fight, the faster person has the upper hand by being able to knock out his opponent first. Generally speaking, a higher DEX person will have higher combat values (DEX 18 versus DEX 24), so that is an additional advantage.

 

Finally, the higher DEX person can also hold their action, waiting to see what the slower opponent does and then respond. Essentially, the higher DEX has the option of striking first, as well as the options of what the slower DEX person has.

 

YMMV.

[griffinman01]

Re: Going First

 

You could do what you were saying and keep aborting, but the problem is I don't see how you'll be able to attack in that scenario. It sounds like you'll be trapped on the defensive since your bonuses will fade when your next action would come around, meaning that you'd either be open to attack on the following phases or you reapply your defenses using your next action.

 

Plus, by continuously aborting you're forfeiting the ability to move, keeping yourself in place which opens you up to having people move around to your back and then shooting you there at 1/2 DCV (making that Dodge kind of useless unless your DCV is so bad that half of 3 (or 5 with a martial Dodge) is an improvement).

 

So by going last you can abort to your defensive maneuvers by sacrificing your ability to act in any other fashion, leaving you open for potential exploits later on.

 

One other thing I'm not sure on is if the speedy person acts at the same time as the slower person (who had aborted to a dodge), does the dodge bonus still come into effect? The rules state that it lasts until the beginning of your next phase so if both players act on the same dex (thus requiring the dex roll) is that considered your next phase or is it until the exact instant you get your next action?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Going First

 

Going first gives you one big advantage ... you can hold your action and see what everybody else does before you commit to your action.

[Ndreare]

Re: Going First

 

The obvious answer that you seam to not value is that the bad guys are dead/stunned/ensnared when their turn comes.

I I know you are aware of this but it is a huge advantage.

[Tasha]

Re: Going First

 

Going first allows me to either Alpha Strike before any one else has done anything. Better yet is to wait till a lower dex when everyone else has gone or at least my target has had their action. Then I unload with my Alpha Strike secure knowing that they can't abort.

 

The Person who goes first has the greatest flexibility in tactics. Properly used it can be a HUGE advantage.

[Tasha]

Re: Going First

 

One other thing I'm not sure on is if the speedy person acts at the same time as the slower person (who had aborted to a dodge)' date=' does the dodge bonus still come into effect? The rules state that it lasts until the beginning of your next phase so if both players act on the same dex (thus requiring the dex roll) is that considered your next phase or is it until the exact instant you get your next action?[/quote']

 

Technically all maneuvers end at the top of the segment when the person who made the maneuver has a new phase. Of course the a GM can rule that all maneuvers last until the start of the characters next phase.

 

RAW speed 6 person dodging on Seg 12 will still be dodging till the top of Seg 2 (when the character's next phase comes up again)

 

A GM can decide to rule that Maneuvers will last till that characters dex on the segment when their action happens

ie Spd 6 character Dodging on Seg 12 will still be dodging till their dex comes up on Seg 2. (I tend to play this way, but it does add a smidge more bookkeeping).

 

In both cases once that phase comes up the dodge ends. So if the character decides to delay, then all Combat Skill levels and Maneuvers reset. Now just prior to to taking the phase the player could decide to set their levels, of course they would be set that way no matter what action they decided to take with their Delay. IIRC you can only set levels once during an action phase (you don't have to declare where you allocate all of your levels, so you could allocate some levels toward DCV and have other levels not allocated that could be used when the delay is taken).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Going First

 

The Person who goes first has the greatest flexibility in tactics. Properly used it can be a HUGE advantage.

 

This.

[psyber624]

Re: Going First

 

Okay if RAW bonuses fade at the top of the SEGMENT then it makes sense. However when I was looking through the rules the one reference I was able to find stated that they expired at the start of their PHASE, when their DEX came up. Which was what caused me to worry about this.

 

Modifiers that alter a character’s CV remain in

effect from when they take effect until the beginning

of the character’s next Phase. For example,

a SPD 3 character who takes a Recovery on his

Phase in Segment 4 remains at ½ DCV until the

beginning of his next Phase in Segment 8.

6e2 38

 

This seems to indicate that he keeps his modifiers till the start of his phase.

 

For the purposes of this discussion, since it is just going to be about who goes first, I am going to assume that all other combat factors other than DEX are the same.

 

Player A has higher DEX, so goes first. He decides to Alpha Strike. Player B aborts to Dodge. Player A has a huge advantage IF he hits, but with the Dodge that is not very likely (with everything thing the same Player B has +3 DCV vs this attack, meaning about 26% chance to hit. Next segment comes up. Player A goes first again, if he attacks Player B he still only has 26% chance to hit. Player B's phase comes up, he finally looses his +3 DCV, so he attacks. As soon as the phase ends he can abort again so he could abort almost immediately. If Player A attacks Player B and Player B chose NOT to abort, then Player A CANNOT abort vs. Player B's attack as he already had an action this phase. Player B gets a choice, Player A does not. To me the fact that Player B gets to choose is of more value than the 26% chance Player A has of hurting Player B before Player B can hurt him. Player B has the benefit of knowledge.

 

Player A can hold his attack. But so can Player B. In this situation Player A gave up any advantage from going first, but didn't gain any advantage over Player B in doing so. If they both try to go at once (Both Declare "I am holding my action till the end of the turn" or some such) then Player A will win the DEX Roll, and he can choose to attack, but Player B's held action can STILL be aborted to allow him to dodge (there doesn't seem to be a way in the rules to prevent him from getting the chance to dodge.) If Player A declares "I am holding my action till Player B does something" then Player B can either do the same (the mexican standoff of Held Actions) or he can choose to attack/dodge/whatever. However this STILL does not give Player A any real advantage over Player B, as at this point they are still both holding their actions so its just a matter of who chooses to "flinch" first, and B still gets to decide how to respond to the fact that Player A held his action.

 

Now, if we rule that combat modifiers end at the start of the segment, that eliminates a number of these issues. If player B chooses to Abort to a Dodge that is all he will ever be able to do (Player A will keep getting to attack for free, until Player B chooses to "take one" in order to attack back). That seems fair. (of course it brings up another issue where penalties will also fall off before they have to affect a player, Player B can, for instance use something like Brace or Multiple Attack and then have his 1/2 DCV fall off before Player A can take advantage of it, but that is still probably going to be less of an advantage than what Player A gets, since Player B will ALWAYS be at base DCV for Player A's attacks unless he aborts this phase, and Player A gets to damage first, meaning he is likely to KO Player

 

Tasha, Derek, I really believe that you both are right, but I am not seeing how this actually works, in game. Can you show me how going first gives you greater flexibility? Honestly this cannot be working how I am thinking it does (I am stating flat out that I think I am wrong) I just want to understand how I am wrong so I can gain better understanding.

 

Oh, and I am talking about 6e so DEX has no effect on combat values.

[griffinman01]

Re: Going First

 

It really seems to me that it should be that the bonuses last until the next Segment where the character has an action begins. That or, in the event of the DEX roll for simultaneous actions, the person who wins gets to decide the order in which they attack, ie: using your example, Player A and Player B want to go at the same time and Player A wins the DEX roll so he gets the option to have Player B use his action first in order to force him to act.

[griffinman01]

Re: Going First

 

I just found this which might help figure things out in the 5e Revised Rulebook (pg 361):

 

Generally, Holding an Action does not affect a

character’s Combat Value. If a character Blocks, or

uses some other Combat Maneuver that affects his

CV, in a Phase, and in his next Phase declares a Held

Action, at that point he loses the CV modifiers from

the Maneuver. Just because he chooses to delay his

Action doesn’t mean his Phase hasn’t occurred, and

that ends the effect of a Combat Maneuver. However,

his Combat Skill Levels, if any, remain allocated as

they were until he changes them.

 

This still doesn't mean player B can't keep aborting if Player A acts first, but if Player A holds his action and Player B does the same, his dodge bonus goes away.

[psyber624]

Re: Going First

 

I vaguely remember something like that in 6e too, ill have to see if I can find it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Going First

 

from 6e2 page 20:

Generally, Holding an Action does not affect a character’s Combat Value. If a character Blocks, or uses some other Combat Maneuver that affects his CV, in a Phase, and in his next Phase declares a Held Action, at that point he loses the CV modifiers from the Maneuver. Just because he chooses to delay his Action doesn’t mean his Phase hasn’t occurred, and that ends the effect of a Combat Maneuver. However, his Combat Skill Levels, if any, remain allocated as they were until he changes them.

THE “NULL ZONE”

As the text indicates, a Held Action is lost at the beginning of the Segment on which the character’s next Phase occurs. Thus, there’s a “null zone” between the start of that Segment and the start of the character’s Phase (which begins on his DEX in that Segment). This may create some difficulties if a character wants to Hold his Action in anticipation of something his foe will do when the foe has a higher DEX. In this situation, the GM should apply some common sense and dramatic sense. If a character wants to Hold his Action in anticipation of a foe’s conduct, the GM could use the Held Action to, in essence, move the character “up” in the initiative order for the Phase, so he can “go first” before his foe only for the purposes of starting another Held Action. But if players start abusing this privilege, or it causes problems, the GM should stop allowing this and revert to the strict letter of the rules.

[psyber624]

Re: Going First

 

Thanks Hyperman

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Going First

 

It really seems to me that it should be that the bonuses last until the next Segment where the character has an action begins. That or' date=' in the event of the DEX roll for simultaneous actions, the person who wins gets to decide the order in which they attack, ie: using your example, Player A and Player B want to go at the same time and Player A wins the DEX roll so he gets the option to have Player B use his action first in order to force him to act.[/quote']

 

I dislike the "start of segment" concept because it further reduces the feel that combat is flowing. The character Dodges at 18 DEX on Segment 3, keeps Dodging until the very end of Segment 5, then suddenly stops Dodging until DEX 18 comes around in Segment 6? Why? What caused him to pause?

 

Similarly, I prefer the "held action stays held until you use it" approach to "held action vanishes at the top of the next segment you act in, with a pause until your DEX". You still can't take two actions in the same segment, so that delay has effectively cost you an action.

 

I don't envision someone walking around the combat area with a big sign that says "PHASE 6", or the clouds forming the words "Phase 5 is Ending - Use Your Held Action". Instead, I think one segment flows into the next from the characters' perspective. You can hold an action until "just after the agents act", but not until "1 DEX on Segment 8".

 

I like the idea of the winner of the DEX roll forcing the loser to act first. If we want a more mechanical resolution, wasn't there an old rule that you could act no later on a segment than [negative your DEX]? So if a 20 DEX and a 30 DEX, both holding an action at end of segment, we first ask 20 DEX for any action - if none, 30 DEX can act and then it's next segment (20 DEX can only act in that new segment - too late to go back). That means 30 DEX can abort when 20 DEX acts, I note.

[griffinman01]

Re: Going First

 

I like the idea of the winner of the DEX roll forcing the loser to act first. If we want a more mechanical resolution' date=' wasn't there an old rule that you could act no later on a segment than [negative your DEX']? So if a 20 DEX and a 30 DEX, both holding an action at end of segment, we first ask 20 DEX for any action - if none, 30 DEX can act and then it's next segment (20 DEX can only act in that new segment - too late to go back). That means 30 DEX can abort when 20 DEX acts, I note.

 

I don't recall a rule like that but it sounds like a good idea. The big question would be if the 20 dex person decides to not act when asked at the end of the segment, could he still abort when the 30 dex person acts in that situation?

 

In any case, it seems that either method could work.

[MrAgdesh]

Re: Going First

 

If i go last, and I am attacked earlier in that phase, I can abort to a defensive move (going to use dodge as my example here). On the next segment where I get a phase my bonuses will apply till everyone else has attacked (since I go last). I can then attack at the end of the phase, and will be able to abort again before anyone has a chance to attack me. Therefore I can keep my "defensive" bonuses up vs all attacks (baring Held Actions, but I can also Hold an Action, and RAW the high DEX guy will still normally be forced to go before me if we both hold "till end of the phase" (he will win the DEX roll). I wont get into (Hold until he attacks) shenanigans here since that has nothing to do with who goes first/last in a segment (since we both can do the same thing).

 

 

To get around the Dodge bonus, a higher DEX fighter only has to Hold his Action until the DEX of the character dodging comes up ("I hold until he stops dodging"). Odds are that the higher DEX character will win the DEX roll and the former 'dodger' cannot then abort.

[psyber624]

Re: Going First

 

I believe (I will have to check the book again later to be sure) that aborting trumps EVERYTHING. The only time you cannot abort is if you have already taken a phase this segment, so even if you lose the DEX roll you can still abort to dodge again.

 

Edit: Okay that's not quite right. If you "hold till he stops dodging" he can abort to dodge again (basically you cannot "force" him to stop dodging long enough for you to hit him). If he chooses not to abort and instead tries to "race" you then you go to the DEX roll. If he loses the DEX roll he cannot then abort because he lost. So he has to choose BEFORE the DEX roll, but he still gets to choose to Dodge if he wishes.

[psyber624]

Re: Going First

 

I did learn something while looking into this that makes this more understandable to me. If you hold your action your phase has considered to have already "started" so you lose all CV modifiers etc. Basically you hold actions, not phases. So in my above example Player A can Hold his action till Player B's phase. Player B can also hold his action, but as soon as he does so he has lost his combat modifiers. Now Player A can choose to attack without having to be penalized by Player B's previous Dodge. Player B can still choose to abort to Dodge in this scenario, but in doing so he has lost his attack for this phase again. That makes going first the more advantageous situation and is what I was missing in my understanding of the rules. Thank you everyone who discussed this with me (and especially MrAgdesh whose comment sounded wrong which actually led me to the appropriate section of the rules to learn where my misunderstanding was.) We have a great community here and I really appreciate everyone for their time (and for never getting insulting or abusive with me over what I was missing.)

[MrAgdesh]

Re: Going First

 

I believe (I will have to check the book again later to be sure) that aborting trumps EVERYTHING. The only time you cannot abort is if you have already taken a phase this segment, so even if you lose the DEX roll you can still abort to dodge again.

 

Edit: Okay that's not quite right. If you "hold till he stops dodging" he can abort to dodge again (basically you cannot "force" him to stop dodging long enough for you to hit him). If he chooses not to abort and instead tries to "race" you then you go to the DEX roll. If he loses the DEX roll he cannot then abort because he lost. So he has to choose BEFORE the DEX roll, but he still gets to choose to Dodge if he wishes.

 

I think that there is a good call here for the GM to disallow an abort and have both parties go straight to the DEX roll.

 

Whether a character can Abort' date=' and to what Actions, is always subject to the GM’s discretion. The GM may limit a character’s capacity to Abort based on the circumstances, the special effects of powers, Limitations taken on particular powers, and so forth.[/quote']

In essence, the higher DEX character is pressing the attack before the lower DEX one can respond. Of course if CSLs were shifted to DCV on the last abort then the defender is still fighting 'defensively', just being slightly overwhelmed by the attacker's reflexes if you like.

 

This can create some interesting dynamics. With characters where the difference in DEX is slight (typically 1-2 points) then the resulting DEX rolls will not be that different (a difference of +1 at most). So a higher DEX character forcing a lower DEX fighter into an attack by Holding his Action until the same DEX could have the tables turned quite easily. I happen to like this as;

 

a) it changes the impact of the order of actions in the DEX countdown

it throws players who know the system well and who know how to play the Hold/Abort actions to greatest effect.

 

I think that the DEX roll trumping abort is something that came with 5th Ed (maybe even 5rEd). I don't remember it before that rules set.

[psyber624]

Re: Going First

 

From a "realistic" perspective the problem I have with that is that a player choosing to "abort to dodge" is essentially saying "I never actually STOPPED dodging". Dodge isn't like throwing a punch or something else. In a lot of ways you could consider it a form of "constant" power. At the start of his phase he has to choose whether to keep dodging or not (just like he would have to decide whether to keep paying the END cost for a constant power). There really shouldn't be a window where "he isn't dodging" if he wants to just keep dodging, just like if he is running phase after phase that doesn't mean he runs his combat move, stops and waits for his next phase, and then runs his combat move again. He is basically running the whole time.

 

Now that I understand the relevant rules better I personally believe RAW reflects this (and the concerns I previously had were mainly a timing concern that came up due to an artifact of how the rules seemed to fail to reflect how things would work in real life.)

 

Basically what I am trying to say is that you should not be able to "Hold your attack till right after he looses his dodge bonus but before he has a chance to reapply it" Either you are going before his phase starts (so his previous dodge is still in effect) or he has a chance to dodge again before you attack.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Going First

 

I agree: you can constantly dodge, but you can also stop dodging. Say you are DEX 20 and you are SPD 5. You can start dodging whenever you like because you can always abort to a dodge at the start of combat, even if your opponents are faster than you (the only exception I would draw is that if you are unaware that you are in combat e.g. if someone attacks you with surprise). Once you start dodging you continue dodging until your DEX on your next phase. If you want to continue dodging I would allow you to do so without interruption at that point, although it obviously uses up that action. If you hold your action I think that you lose any combat modifiers until you take another action, although you can always abort to an action you have not taken yet, which should give you the advantage of the dodge modifiers for any incoming attack. You can not maintain the modifiers past your DEX on your next phase.

 

This can work to your advantage: If you are going to try and pull something freaky that will give you negative modifiers it is a good idea (if you can) to delay your action before using the modifier, that way there is less time between then and your next phase for someone to take advantage.

 

A corner issue arises if you want to (for example) abort to dodge and then, on your DEX on your next phase, half phase move then continue dodging. I suppose technically, if you are not dodging while you are moving so someone delaying an action to attack you COULD potentially get in an attack during the move portion of your action.

 

Things are made confusing by the wording (6.2.19) which suggests both that if two characters are both holding an action, or would otherwise move simultaneously, that a DEX roll should be made and the winner acts first - even if the loser wants to use a defensive action. It then states the opposite on the next page, saying that defensive actions always go first.

 

Things are further complicated by being able to use a half phase and hold the rest.

 

Bear in mind that we are not doing stop motion. This is continuous action, the DEX/SPD is only there to help make decisions. I think that we could have a more straightforward way of doing it:

 

1. If you have not acted yet this phase then you can always abort to a defensive action, even if you are still taking a defensive action from last phase. Aborting to a defensive action always gives you the benefit of the defense. Actual timing is irrelevant. This is the case even if opponents both abort to a defensive action and one of them has an attack that is triggered by aborting: it does not matter who technically goes first, both get the advantage of the defensive action they aborted to before any attack rolls or damage rolls are made.

 

2. If two people want to take actions that they can not normally abort to and have identical DEX and both have an action this phase, or one is holding until the other acts for some reason, then each makes a DEX roll and keeps doing so (if necessary) until one beats the other. This DOES NOT work like an opposed skill check. Note that if you win the DEX roll you can use take a full action before your opponent can act, unless you choose to hold your second half phase.

 

3. If you want to hold an action, you can do so for as long as you like, but you can never have more than one action held or take more than one action in any given segment.

 

That basically follows the existing rules but is, i think, clearer and certainly a lot more concise.

[psyber624]

Re: Going First

 

Good points, the only thing I disagree with is that you can move while dodging (up to a half move) and I do not believe there are rules in the game that allow you to interrupt someones phase to do something. If you chose to hold your half phase that is a different story, but once you have started your phase you get to take your full phase. An attacker can't wait till you have taken your first half phase action (in this case the half move) then interrupt you before you can take your second half phase action (in this case the dodge action). Realistically speaking you aren't doing these things "in sequence". You don't stop dodging, run across the room, and start dodging again, your a moving while dodging, both things are always happening simultaneously (and technically you are actually moving for all of the segments between this one and your next phase).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Going First

 

Good points' date=' the only thing I disagree with is that you can move while dodging (up to a half move) and I do not believe there are rules in the game that allow you to interrupt someones phase to do something. If you chose to hold your half phase that is a different story, but once you have started your phase you get to take your full phase. [b']An attacker can't wait till you have taken your first half phase action (in this case the half move) then interrupt you before you can take your second half phase action[/b] (in this case the dodge action). Realistically speaking you aren't doing these things "in sequence". You don't stop dodging, run across the room, and start dodging again, your a moving while dodging, both things are always happening simultaneously (and technically you are actually moving for all of the segments between this one and your next phase).

I disagree. If Character A holds their action and Character B decides to make a half move towards A and then attack them I would say A could force a Dex roll to try to hit B first. Especially if A was expecting it and specifically held his action waiting for B to move into HtH range.

 

EDIT: To clarify I am responding to the bold part, not about Dodging in particular but about interrupting mid Phase in general.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Going First

 

There are only 2 free ways a character could normally combine movement and a Dodge in the same Phase.

declare a half move and then dodge on the character's DEX-Phase.

declare a half move and hold the 2nd half phase action and then later abort to dodge.

 

The Speedster Martial Art Maneuver Flying Dodge actually combines movement and dodge into a single action but costs 5 points.

 

Dodge is considered an Attack Action and ends a character's Phase.

Dodging and then moving is not allowed.