Most PCs...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Most PCs...

 

They were not "the last action in the Phase" - they were an "Action that ended your Phase" - which is a completely different monster.

 

If you have two 1/2 Phase Actions, I never saw why you couldn't use both into a single Whole Phase Action that ended your turn and allowed you to, for example, fire two guns at once.

 

Yes - it honestly boggled me that several Hero GMs I played with when I first started out just never considered that an option.

[Greywind]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Probably because after the first half-phase action that ended your phase, you were kind of left hanging with that unused second half-phase action because your phase had ended.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I don't remember a single combat example where a character used a combined attack. Also all the attack powers were half-phase actions and had to be the last action of the phase. How do you fit two or more half-phase actions into phase and have them all be the last action of the phase?

 

Sixth Edition renamed it a Combined Attack (see 6e2 p74 for an updated version of the quoted text below).

 

From 5er p358:

Multiple-Power Attacks

A character may use as many Attack Powers (or other attacks) in a Phase as he wishes, provided he meets several restrictions.

 

First, he must be able to pay the END for all of the powers.

 

Second, he can only make one Attack Roll. It must be the same type of Attack Roll; a character can’t use a power requiring a DEX-based Attack Roll together with one requiring an ECV Attack Roll, except with the GM’s permission. A character could use an areaaffecting attack (which works against DCV 3) and a non-area-affecting one (which works against the target’s DCV) as part of a multiple-power attack, but he must make the Attack Roll against the target’s DCV for the non-area-affecting attack (in other words, not against the DCV 3 for the area-aff ecting attack). The attacks can affect different defenses (such as an Energy Blast and an RKA, or a Drain and a Flash).

 

Third, he must use all of the Attack Powers or attacks on the same target. Use of multiple powers in this fashion is considered a single Attack Action.

Example:

Defender has an Energy Blast slot in his Multipower and a Sight Group Flash (bought separately, outside his Multipower). Defender may attack with both Powers in the same Phase (assuming he has enough END to pay for both). He may only make one Attack Roll, however; if he misses, both Powers miss. He may not use the Energy Blast on one target and the Flash on another; he must use both against the same target.

 

Characters should not combine Ranged and non-Ranged attacks into a multiple-power attack (unless the GM permits this); the attacks should both be Ranged or non-Ranged. Off Hand penalties do not apply to multiple-power attacks even if the special effect of the attack is that the character fires an attack from each hand, fights with two weapons, or the like. The overall attack is considered to be made with the character’s good hand.

 

Characters can use slots from two or more different Power Frameworks to perform a multiple-power attack, assuming they obey all the rules for such attacks. For example, a character could combine his Flame Blast (Energy Blast 8d6, bought as a slot in a Multipower) with his Firebolt (RKA 2d6, bought as a slot in an Elemental Control) into a multiple-power attack. However, a character may not combine two or more slots from a single Power Framework as part of a multiple-power attack, even if he has sufficient reserve or base points to use both slots at once.

[Tasha]

Re: Most PCs...

 

They were not "the last action in the Phase" - they were an "Action that ended your Phase" - which is a completely different monster.

 

If you have two 1/2 Phase Actions, I never saw why you couldn't use both into a single Whole Phase Action that ended your turn and allowed you to, for example, fire two guns at once.

 

Yes - it honestly boggled me that several Hero GMs I played with when I first started out just never considered that an option.

 

I have often thought that we should just ditch "Attack action ends your phase". Allow people to move either before or after the phase. It seems to work ok in d20. Also in the games we tried it in it seemed to work pretty well. It would need some work to work out minor kinks, but it would make things easier.

[Markdoc]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I have often thought that we should just ditch "Attack action ends your phase". Allow people to move either before or after the phase. It seems to work ok in d20. Also in the games we tried it in it seemed to work pretty well. It would need some work to work out minor kinks' date=' but it would make things easier.[/quote']

 

Actually, you need a feat (spring attack) or class ability to move after an attack in d20 (unless 4E changed that): like Hero system. The rationale was, I think, that being able to move after an attack, allowed fast moving characters to move, attack and then go hide, preventing retaliation. That's not unreasonable, but it can be pretty frustrating to be on the recieving end.

 

In fact, you can already do this in both d20 (it requires a build that can move as a swift action, or a feat/ability like spring attack that lets you hit and move) and Hero system (move-by) but in both cases you give something up to be able to do it

 

Cheers, Mark

[Sabelkatten]

Re: Most PCs...

 

D&D4 lets you move after attacking. All those opportunity attacks did a pretty good job at controlling that, but then they started adding things that let you ignore OAs...

 

When I started playing HERO we did allow two attacks per phase, and from what I recall it did work pretty well. Of course back then END cost for powers were twice what they are now so most characters couldn't afford double attacking often anyhow!

[Ranxerox]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Sixth Edition renamed it a Combined Attack (see 6e2 p74 for an updated version of the quoted text below).

 

From 5er p358:

 

Sorry if I did not make it clear enough that I was talking per-5th edition.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Sorry if I did not make it clear enough that I was talking per-5th edition.

 

This is going to sound like an Abbott and Costello routine since it goes back to the old 'Linked Debate' (Third Base!).

 

Here's a pre-5th edition example....

 

from 4e pg113:

 

LINKED

A Power with this Limitation can only and must only be used with another Power. If the other Power isn’t turned on then this Power cannot be turned on either. Linked can only be bought for the smaller of the two Powers. If the Linked Powers are both attacks, then they are fired simultaneously, but the defender gets to apply his defenses separately against them. Additionally, if one of the attacks will affect his defenses (like a PD Drain), then the other attack is applied first. If there are more than two linked Powers, every Power but the first receives this Limitation. Linked is a -1/2 Limitation.

Example:

Laser Lad wants to create a laser attack that both cuts an opponent and blinds him. He buys a 3d6 RKA for 45 Character Pts and a 2d6 Flash against sight for 20 Character Pts. Since the Flash is the smaller Power, Laser Lad gets to apply the Linked Limitation to it. The 2d6 Flash now costs 20/ (1 + 1 1/2) = 13 Character Points, and can only be used when the RKA is used.

 

• Linked Power Limitation: -1/2.

 

Linked is a Limitation, not an Advantage. It is NOT providing a NEW method to allow the Flash & RKA to be used together. Nothing in the rules ever prevented that from happening in the first place.

[Ndreare]

Re: Most PCs...

 

As a long time believer it was our game and we can ignore the rules we don't like. Our group has been using two unrestricted half phase actions for a long time and it has never inbalanced the game. Even allowing two attacks for some one who does not move.

[Andrew_A]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Just out of curiosity, does allowing two attacks, or attack then move, speed up combat?

[Tasha]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Just out of curiosity' date=' does allowing two attacks, or attack then move, speed up combat?[/quote']

 

Our group never had a problem with slow combats. We had experienced players, and when we did have new players everyone taught them to know what they were going to do before their Phase came up.

 

Attack then move does change some of the structure of Hero combat. It also helps make combats move more as people move around after attacks.

[Ndreare]

Re: Most PCs...

 

No it did not change the speed of combat. The only two things I have found that speed up combat are allowing higher DCs or switching to d20 for attack rolls. And that was because crits became much more common.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Most PCs...

 

No it did not change the speed of combat. The only two things I have found that speed up combat are allowing higher DCs or switching to d20 for attack rolls. And that was because crits became much more common.

 

More damage past defenses definitely speeds up combat. I've considered bumping all the opponents up 3DC's and dropping their defenses by 10. Result: attacks get about 10 more STUN past defenses, speeding combat up considerably.

[Ndreare]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I would suggest one or the other. Combining both will create paper dolls out of the players. I raised offensive active point limits by 10 for each "level" and it works great. It also puts the fear in combat and a little tension goes a long way to adding fun to a game.

[Tasha]

Re: Most PCs...

 

More damage past defenses definitely speeds up combat. I've considered bumping all the opponents up 3DC's and dropping their defenses by 10. Result: attacks get about 10 more STUN past defenses' date=' speeding combat up considerably.[/quote']

 

That will end up causing Con inflation. So everyone doesn't spend every other phase stunned once they are attacked. If Con can't be raised it will cause Dex inflation, because getting an attack in first will decide the combat.

 

On top of that you will definatly see people spending more points on STUN, which will defeat the purpose of your change.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Most PCs...

 

BigDamnHero started to let us Attack-Them-Move some years ago, under the caveat that if it seemed abusive he'd change it back to not being allowed. Hasn't been abusive, hasn't made combats faster per se. But it has made them tactically a little more interesting. Because the bad guys can do it as well, where you stop has occasionally been as important as who you attack, he also makes sure there's some environment to interact with all around, which helps.

 

Everyone's having fun, so it seems to be working out just fine.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Most PCs...

 

That will end up causing Con inflation. So everyone doesn't spend every other phase stunned once they are attacked. If Con can't be raised it will cause Dex inflation, because getting an attack in first will decide the combat.

 

On top of that you will definatly see people spending more points on STUN, which will defeat the purpose of your change.

 

In the game I'd considered this, the defense to DC ratio was pretty high already, so Stunning would not be the issue, and the existing STUN levels would still make for a few hits before KO. The model stats in 5th/6th would have a similar result. Bottom line: if combats are taking too long, enhancing STUN past defenses will speed them up.

 

I would suggest one or the other. Combining both will create paper dolls out of the players. I raised offensive active point limits by 10 for each "level" and it works great. It also puts the fear in combat and a little tension goes a long way to adding fun to a game.

 

I think you misread my comment. NPC's would have DC's raised and defenses lowered. The PC's stay as written. They would pass about 10 STUN more past the PC's unchanced defenses, and take 10 more from the PC's unmodified attacks. So we go from everyone having about 12d6 vs 30 - 35 Defenses to the heroes using 126d against 20 - 25 defenses, and the villains getting 15d6 against the heroes' 30 - 35 defenses.

[McCoy]

Re: Most PCs...

 

... do not need a Multi-Power. And most players should not have a VPP.

 

I'm thinking of adding those lines to my set of campaign character creation guidelines. I fully expect hilarity to ensue.

 

Seems like every PC & campaign setting book NPC has a multi-power of VPP, and many have both. Maybe I'm just too old school, but I remember when they were rare.

 

Thoughts?

Looks like I'm late to the party.

 

I disagree. If the objective is to simulate the source material, I maintain that most published characters have either a VPP, or a Power Stunts skill. I defy you to read 12 consecutive issues of a title and not see a character using their power in a way they never did before, and often in a way they never did again.