Most PCs...

[Cassandra]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I don't think the problem is the framework, I think it's the total points, and the active point limits.

 

As long as the total of the multipower or VPP doesn't exceed the Active Point limits then the PC doesn't have an undue advantage over other PCs or the Villains. VPP usually results in a flexibility of powers and abilities, and not firepower, and multipowers give the PC more attack options, but at the same level of attack.

 

Of course the same thing could be accomplished with power advantages. One Player has a EB 12d6, another Player has a EB 8d6, Variable Special Effects [Any]. Both costs the same, and in stand up fight the 12d6 would have the advantages. But if the 8d6 VSFX player knows the vulnerability of the 12d6 Player, then he could do between 12d6 to 16d6 worth of damage to them.

[Ice9]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I find it interesting that the argument against Multipowers is that it favors certain concepts - when removing them favors particular concepts to a much larger degree.

In a world without Multipowers:

Elemental Man: Skin of Stone, Wings of Air, Nimbus of Fire, Water Blast. Result: Works great

Elemental Man: Hail of Stone, Hurricane Breath, Sword of Fire, Water Blast. Result: Cruddy

 

Unless, of course, you let the latter combine all his attacks into one giant Combined Attack, which vaporizes anything set up for a more typical level of offense. Even with no limits, you have a similar issue - the concept that can combine all its powers together beats the one that can't.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I like them!

 

So there

 

QM

[Ndreare]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I generally like multipowers and vpps. My players usually have one or the other. My only out of hand ruling is that VPP do not get variable special effect for free. When players have VPPs just like every other power or even a multipower they must have a special effect.

 

Summer magic, shadow weaving, Stone Master i do not care as long as it is a clear fx. If they want variable fx they buy it just like any other character.

 

PS: i also enforce the same on the pre written characters, so the fey in the book have magic limited to dresden files styled magic. Demons are limited to demonic/fire magic, and so on.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Most PCs...

 

My experience as a gm in Hero System isn't nearly as extensive as most of the rest of you but I figure I'll still thrown in my .2 cents worth. I really don't have a problem with Multipowers; although, I have seen some slots over the years that made me roll my eyes. For example, my best friend added a healing slot in his Darkness Power Multipower that he called "Mending Shadows." The whole shoving darkness inside of people to heal them was a bit of stretch. He's just that kinda player, always has been, always will be. There are just people who will try anything if they think they can get away with it. When he overreaches (e.g. Complication: Hates Ham), I just shoot him an look that screams "Try it and I will seal you fate." That usually straightens him out.

 

Variable Power Pools aren't really that bad in my opinion but I do think they can be potential problems when overly broad. In my campaigns, the default cost assumes a limited special effect (e.g. gravity powers, magnetic powers, telepathic powers, whatever) with no cost break. Anything broader actually cost more in the form of an Advantage, up to +1 for overly broad ass pulls like magic powers, cosmic powers, "I can shapeshift into whatever the hell I can imagine" powers and that's only if I allow the construct in question. It has worked out great for me.

[Ice9]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I'd agree that VPPs should definitely have a reasonably limited "portfolio", as opposed to something ultra-broad (at least in most cases). Often a lot of that is in how well the special effect is defined. For example:

 

Shapeshifting Powers: Potentially ultra-board.

Shapeshifting with conservation of mass, can only get realistically tough/strong/fast, and doesn't grant mystic powers like a basilisk stare: Reasonable, even fairly limited.

 

Necromancy: Usually pretty limited

Necromancy that includes summoning ghosts with expert skills/knowledge for any subject, and forming any object out of shadow: Pretty damn broad

[BNakagawa]

Re: Most PCs...

 

If you just rewrite the original premise to read Other People's PCs don't need...

 

I think we'd support the statement.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Most PCs...

 

If you just rewrite the original premise to read Other People's PCs don't need...

 

I think we'd support the statement.

Nope.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I'd agree that VPPs should definitely have a reasonably limited "portfolio", as opposed to something ultra-broad (at least in most cases). Often a lot of that is in how well the special effect is defined. For example:

 

Shapeshifting Powers: Potentially ultra-board.

Shapeshifting with conservation of mass, can only get realistically tough/strong/fast, and doesn't grant mystic powers like a basilisk stare: Reasonable, even fairly limited.

 

Necromancy: Usually pretty limited

Necromancy that includes summoning ghosts with expert skills/knowledge for any subject, and forming any object out of shadow: Pretty damn broad

 

 

6e1 page 409 suggests that VPP's have a default SFX but then page 410 goes on to define a limitation values when this is done (ex: magic only = -1/4).

 

In other words, if a GM is going to enforce a mandatory choice of a limiting sfx then an actual Limitation should be taken on the Control Cost only to reflect this. At their base costing structure even without the poorly named "cosmic Advantage(s)" they still have a cosmic special effect by default.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Most PCs...

 

6e1 page 409 suggests that VPP's have a default SFX but then page 410 goes on to define a limitation values when this is done (ex: magic only = -1/4).

 

In other words, if a GM is going to enforce a mandatory choice of a limiting sfx then an actual Limitation should be taken on the Control Cost only to reflect this. At their base costing structure even without the poorly named "cosmic Advantage(s)" they still have a cosmic special effect by default.

 

To be specific:

A character with a Variable Power Pool (“VPP”) establishes a pool of Character Points that he can use to create any power, or any power within a defined group of powers (typically, a set of powers limited to a particular special effect). Think of a VPP as a Multipower that has all of the powers of a certain type or special effect. The character distributes the points in the Pool among whatever powers he wants to have at a given time.

Typically, the powers created with a Variable Power Pool are linked by common special effects, such as “gadgets,” “magic,” “fire/heat,” or “mentalism.” This allows a character to create a wide variety of powers and effects without having to try to think of every possible application of his powers in advance and buy them separately.

 

However the restrictions apply ("Slightly Limited Class, Magic only, -1/4"), they apply to the special effect, which means that the more restricted you get, the more ways it can be affected by other kinds of powers - to wit, Adjustment Powers. In all cases, however, the game-system Powers which are available for use in the VPP remains unlimited. Mutant Shadow Guy (which I would read as Limited, -1/2) can have Duplication, Growth, Healing, etc. etc. He gets drained, however, by things that affect shadow powers (i.e. a mystic drain on Shadows) as well as mutant powers. Very Limited classes (only drains and aids, only Necromancy) should be not only two SF/X, but specifically restricted as to what Powers can be used, too.

 

I will confess I don't entirely like that setup. Two Special Effects restricting what powers, sure - mutant teleporter, mystic fire, great, -1/2. If the GM wants to limit what Powers the character can use, that (IMO) should go into a seperate disad; powers might be restricted on the type of power they are, how they meta-work, or the Limitation value might simply be decided by the GM. So a Mutant Psychic might have a -1/2 disad (Limited Class), while adding another -1/4 in limitation for not being able to take a handful or two of Powers - because a 'psychic form' could explain everything from Growth to Duplication to Summoning to the usual powers.

[Ndreare]

Re: Most PCs...

 

The problem come in that from day 1 the VPP was not priced constantly with other powers of similar scope namely the variable advantage, variable special effect, variable effect and variable limitation modifiers.

 

 

 

Imagine the following two options, compare the utility and compare the value.

 

 

 

1D6+1 RKA: Variable Special Effect Any +1/2, Variable Advantage (up to +1/2) +1 = Total cost 50-points

 

 

 

30 VPP 30 Control cost: No Skill Roll to Change +1, O-phase Change +1, Attack Powers Only -1 = Total Cost 52

 

For the same poi

 

The second option grants the same any effect and a virtually infinite combinations of DC versus needed advantages. In addition to the following

 

Blast

 

Change Environment

 

Characteristics STR

 

Darkness

 

Dispel

 

Drain

 

Entangle

 

Flash

 

Hand-To-Hand Attack

 

Images

 

Killing Attack

 

Mental Blast

 

Mental Illusions

 

Mind Control

 

Reflection

 

Telekinesis

 

Transform

 

Any other powers with the Usable As Attack Advantage such as flight teleportation extra dimensional movement or whatever.

 

 

 

Heck he could even add a -1 limitation such as x3 end to do a combined attack mixing his Drain and his RKA together.

 

 

 

Overall it is obvious that the full implications of what a VPP was and how it can be used was not considered from day one. In the interim the idea was to put a Stop sign on it and call it good, but the correct answer was to build its price scheme consistent with the rest of the game and not worry about who has it. I personally believe if it was me the base Control Cost would be the same as the pool, unfortunately this would make all the other published books incompatible with the players character so instead I arbitrarily made a rule that applies equally to the players and the NPC’s in the book. If an NPC in the book is taking advantage of the limited FX limitation I treat them as being far more powerful that the listed points because they are.

 

 

 

Unfortunately the idea of a VPP is how authors seam to treat at least a quarter of the powers in comics or fiction treated. Because of that I encourage taking VPP or multi-power in my games so the players can feel like their characters are able to do what their fictional counterparts are doing.

 

 

 

Yes the use power skill can be used for some tricks, but the guidelines there are so flaky as to put all of the control on the GM’s side and even state flatly they are not to be used as cheep substitutes for VPP. When a player has a VPP there is solid rules saying what active point level can be achieved.

 

Cc page 33 Power isn’t intended as a cheap substitute for Variable Power Pool, and the Core Concept of You Get What You Pay For (page 7) remains in effect. Using Power to perform a stunt once (or possibly even a handful of times) is acceptable, but if the stunt becomes something the character does regularly, he should pay CP for it.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: This message swyped on an android so any weird or out of place words are laziness on my part as I should have proof read it better.

 

 

 

PS: As a side note, I often allow special powers such as Enhanced senses or skills normally restricted from power frame works with a x5 cost multiplier as long as they fit within the conventions of the power. Such as using darkness for stealth or shape shifting for enhanced senses. I know I am a bad man, but what can I say…

 

*

[Greywind]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Variable Advantage/Limitation/Effect/SFX weren't introduced day 1.

[Ndreare]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Um. .. okay it is a good thing you point that out I guess the entire post is invalid and VPPs are balanced after all.

Or it could be that the post is still valid and the comparisons still stand when evaluated objectively on the utility versus cost scale established by the rest of the book.

[Greywind]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Just pointing out an error in your argument.

[phoenix240]

Re: Most PCs...

 

In other words, if a GM is going to enforce a mandatory choice of a limiting sfx then an actual Limitation should be taken on the Control Cost only to reflect this. At their base costing structure even without the poorly named "cosmic Advantage(s)" they still have a cosmic special effect by default.

 

Barring a House Rule, of course.

[Alcibiades]

Re: Most PCs...

 

At least in the 6E book example limitations for a VPP, Attack Powers Only is a -1/4 Limitation, not -1.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Most PCs...

 

... do not need a Multi-Power. And most players should not have a VPP.

 

I'm thinking of adding those lines to my set of campaign character creation guidelines.

 

I'm still going with "try it and see what happens". All you lose is some time.

[Tasha]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Variable Advantage/Limitation/Effect/SFX weren't introduced day 1.

 

VPP's appeared pretty early in the rules. IIRC there were in the 2nd edition supplement ChampionsIII. The Variable Advantage/Limitation/Effect/SFX appeared in 4e. So those advantages should have been made to be balanced against VPP's, Multipowers and Elemental Controls.(EC's being removed in 6e).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

At least in the 6E book example limitations for a VPP' date=' Attack Powers Only is a -1/4 Limitation, not -1.[/quote']

 

This.

[Tasha]

Re: Most PCs...

 

The biggest problem with this whole post is the notion that removing part of the system will somehow magically make characters "balanced". In any point based system, the task of balancing characters fall to the GM. The GM decides on campaign limits (ie Dex, Speed, DC's, Point budgets etc). They then look at the characters and decide whether they are balanced enough against one another. Really the only thing that matters is making sure that all of the PC's are around the same effectiveness. That's the real point of balancing stuff. The GM can always make Opposition that challenges the PC's no matter their powerlevel.

 

Limiting the PC Flexability is silly. What the GM should be helping the players to do is to make characters that have a consistent power conception. Not a set of "Kewl" powers that have not real special effect and really don't fit together.

 

If all of the PC's are around the same effectiveness it shouldn't matter if they have 3 powers or 20 powers in their VPP's or Multipowers. Again as long as the powers make sense thematically and have a good special effect. As a GM you shouldn't care.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Most PCs...

 

 

Sure do. But there is a penalty for multiple attacks, not combined attacks. 6eV2 p 74 is quite clear that a combined attack "no OCV penalty, doesn’t halve the attacker’s DCV, and doesn’t take a Full Phase to perform", but would attract penalties, of course, where "sing two such powers multiple times against a single target, or against multiple targets," since that "is a Multiple Attack and subject to all Multiple Attack rules."

 

So the character with 10 attack powers outside a Multipower, able to use them all at once, can fire all 10 simultaneously as a strike - 1/2 phase, no OCV or DCV penalty.

 

 

 

All ten could be used at no OCV penalty. For 120 points, instead of a 10 slot Swiss Army Attack Multipower, I can have a 12d6 Blast, a 6d6 Sight Flash and a 6d6 STR drain. I can fire them all at once, at no penalties. That seems, to me, a very potent combination. While a 10 slot MP gives me more options, this one gives me a lot more punch straight out of the gate.

 

Oops. Well that's embarrassing. I guess it shows that I haven't had all that many play opportunities since fourth edition. Well, at least the decision to drop elemental controls now makes sense to me. The ability to buy a number of independent offensive powers at a reasonable price could make for some very short fights.

 

Okay, I largely withdrawal my initial objection though I still think Multipowers are an incredible deal.

[Tasha]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Okay' date=' I largely withdrawal my initial objection though I still think Multipowers are an incredible deal.[/quote']

 

I am pretty sure that they were designed with that in mind. Multipowers and Elemental Controls gave their bonuses because they made players construct characters in a certain way. Multipowers make for characters that can do a bunch of different things, but not more than a few or one at a time. Elemental Controls make people create characters with a tight special effect (The Limitation Unified Power does much of the same thing). The Designers wanted to encourage character writeups that were done in a particular way. Those Modifiers did just that.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I know, but back before combined attacks Multipowers were a distinctly better deal than ECs. Players would buy movement power and defense at (more or less) full price and then get a MP with about a half dozen attacks. This works out to be a lot cheaper than buying 8 or even (usually) 6 powers through an Elemental Control. Most of my players figured this out quickly and I didn't see many ECs. It was back at this point that I started considering MPs more equal relative to other builds. Now that the rules allow combined attacks, ECs would be a lot more desirable than they use to be but alas they are no more.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

It's not that the rules now allow Combined Attacks. It's that they've never disallowed them (except when involving multiple attack powers within frameworks). The original game designers just assumed players would realize that.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Most PCs...

 

It's not that the rules now allow Combined Attacks. It's that they've never disallowed them (except when involving multiple attack powers within frameworks). The original game designers just assumed players would realize that.

 

I don't remember a single combat example where a character used a combined attack. Also all the attack powers were half-phase actions and had to be the last action of the phase. How do you fit two or more half-phase actions into phase and have them all be the last action of the phase?