Most PCs...

[phydaux]

... do not need a Multi-Power. And most players should not have a VPP.

 

I'm thinking of adding those lines to my set of campaign character creation guidelines. I fully expect hilarity to ensue.

 

Seems like every PC & campaign setting book NPC has a multi-power of VPP, and many have both. Maybe I'm just too old school, but I remember when they were rare.

 

Thoughts?

[Beast]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I disagree

Bricks and Martial Artist would be the most likely to not have 1,but some do

going through my 2nd and 3rd ed villain books lots have MPs few have VPPs

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Most PCs...

 

My Characters very rarely have a Variable Power Pool and everyone of them has been either a Mystic or Mentalist. With Hero Designer I find my self contantly tweeking my Characters. I can think of only 4 Chacters in the last 10yrs that have them. I can see Mystic Campaign Settings having more.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

QM

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I think the key concept to remember about Multipowers & VPP's is that after a certain number of slots a Multipower become MORE expensive than a VPP with the same Active Point slots. That is, characters end up paying MORE for LESS utility if VPP's are not allowed. This just seems weird to me.

 

A relatively easy way to keep VPP's in line is to just enforce a house rule that all slots have to be prebuilt and approved before game time use. Another is to require that they have some Limit on the breadth of Powers that can be used within them. Batman's Utility Belt is most easily modeled this way. The same goes for the abilities of Superman, the abilities granted by a Green Lantern Power Ring.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Most PCs...

 

It's just a framework, dude. VPP's can be iffy if they're too all-encompassing, but I can't for the life of me see what's wrong with Multipowers.

[Tasha]

Re: Most PCs...

 

... do not need a Multi-Power. And most players should not have a VPP.

 

I'm thinking of adding those lines to my set of campaign character creation guidelines. I fully expect hilarity to ensue.

 

Seems like every PC & campaign setting book NPC has a multi-power of VPP, and many have both. Maybe I'm just too old school, but I remember when they were rare.

 

Thoughts?

 

I totally disagree. You will either see your Players go to ridiculous lengths with Limitations (and not expect you to enforce them) and/or you will get pretty boring characters. I like having the flexibility of having a Multipower. It makes Mentalists more than a one trick pony. In fact Mental powers were switched from Constant to Instant because the powers were commonly found in Multipowers. It also allows Energy Projectors to do more than energy blast. MP's are all good in my book. VPP's can be annoying, but as long as the Player has a list of powers allowed in the pool. It isn't that ugly either.

 

I have been playing since the early days. I can tell you there were plenty of Multipowers in our group. VPP's took a bit longer to catch on, but that was mostly because they were introduced in Champions III and expanded and fixed in Champions 3rd Edition.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I guess instead of a 60 AP multipower with 5 different slots (120 point cost), characters will either buy a single 120 AP attack power (which any sane GM will quickly disallow) or buy 2 60 AP attacks and always fire them as a combined attack. If versatility isn't allowed with a reasonable cost structure, go for the most punch you can pack for the same point cost.

[Cancer]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Of course, if you want to go completely insane, make a Multiform character, each form of which has a different suite of powers ... VPPs, Multipowers, etc.

[Christougher]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Of course, the better question is to ask Phydeaux WHY he has problems allowing multipowers or VPPs. They are very good tools to allow for a suite of abilities for reasonable cost. And I think you would be a bit hard pressed to point out a comic book character who didn't have a couple tricks up their sleeve.

 

Chris.

[Ice9]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I feel like even most "single-power" characters in comics have - in HERO terms - more than one way to use their power, which a Multipower is a good way to model. Sure, the Power skill can handle it to an extent, but a lot of the time you've got more than one commonly used version, which makes building it explicitly a better idea, IMO.

 

For example - super-speed, eye beams, ___-kinesis, and many morphic powers all fall into this category.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Of course' date=' if you want to go completely insane, make a Multiform character, each form of which has a different suite of powers ... VPPs, Multipowers, etc.[/quote']

 

Did that once.

 

Was asked not to do it again.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Thoughts?

 

I don't see a problem necessarily, but it's your game. You can always try it and see what happens.

[Tigereye]

Re: Most PCs...

 

My character Deuce uses a VPP, as a Focus Pool (or Gadget Pool, if you prefer). I've self-limited to 4 slots in any one "scene", after which I have to reload someplace else. I'm also restricted to a predetermined list of gadgets and light weapons. I have to take at least -1 in power limitations in any one slot (which actually limits the "rubber science" my character can use).

 

The GM allows it because it allows for surprise moves on my part -and much of the fun of the character is finding just which powers can be effective when used in surprising ways.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Of course' date=' if you want to go completely insane, make a Multiform character, each form of which has a different suite of powers ... VPPs, Multipowers, etc.[/quote']

 

Did that, sort of. Each character was based off an 'element' (loosely defined, as I had 13 sheets). Each character was built fairly similarly, including a Multipower. It was especially entertaining in that it was for a Teen Champions game, and she constantly bi ... complained about having to master 13 powers instead of just 1. She thought she was never going to graduate.

[phydaux]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Of course, the better question is to ask Phydeaux WHY he has problems allowing multipowers or VPPs. They are very good tools to allow for a suite of abilities for reasonable cost. And I think you would be a bit hard pressed to point out a comic book character who didn't have a couple tricks up their sleeve.

 

Chris.

I have no problems with multipowers. I've just seen too many power monger players try to jam all kinds of powers that don't fit their character concept into a multi-power and call them "feats."

 

I don't have a problem with VPPs either, per say. It's just that a player with a VPP needs to have an excelent grasp of the rules to make them work. Most players I've seen try to use them just ended up bogging down the game.

[Old Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I have no problems with multipowers. I've just seen too many power monger players try to jam all kinds of powers that don't fit their character concept into a multi-power and call them "feats."

 

I don't have a problem with VPPs either, per say. It's just that a player with a VPP needs to have an excelent grasp of the rules to make them work. Most players I've seen try to use them just ended up bogging down the game.

 

Yeah, the one time I ran a character that had a giant VPP, I quickly realized that I wasn't going to be able to come up with powers on the fly in game without slowing things way down. I wound up writing up three or four pages of powers that I could fit into the pool. So it was like a multipower with far too many slots, though of course I was still able to invent new powers on the fly if I had to.

[Markdoc]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Yeah' date=' the one time I ran a character that had a giant VPP, I quickly realized that I wasn't going to be able to come up with powers on the fly in game without slowing things way down. I wound up writing up three or four pages of powers that I could fit into the pool. So it was like a multipower with far too many slots, though of course I was still able to invent new powers on the fly if I had to.[/quote']

 

I agree with the OP that a VPP can actually be a problem in the hands of an inexperienced player, simply because it can slow things down. On the other hand, I have had inexperienced players get great value out of a VPP ... because I handled the content. I wasn't trying to min-max the heck out of everything, so I had a pretty good idea of what you could get with a 60 AP "Fire powers" VPP and just toss out powers on the fly. That way the player could say "I do X" and I could just tell them what the effect was.

 

Multipowers, I've never really had a problem with, but I've always insisted that power frameworks - of any kind - had to have a tight, coherent special effect. I wouldn't for example allow a VPP or MP with the special effect "Super-powers" and I hate the equally diffuse "Magic". "Necromancy" or "Telekinesis" or "Fire Powers" would be fine. I'm even good with a more diffuse "magic" framework as long as it had a clearly defined set of limits that it operated within. That seems to deal with most problems.

 

cheers, Mark

[GhostDancer]

Re: Most PCs...

 

One thing that I've pointed out to our players is the Power Formats, in essence, are discounts for abilities with a shared theme. Justify your discount, or you don't get it. For the MPs and ECs, be modest with the number of slots- I prefer nine or less. One player tried to get a Luck MP approved with a dozen-and-a-half or so slots - that's excessive for me.

 

For VPPs, I insist the slots be approved before the next game session, so that game night is not bogged down by extra math / vetting. Fudging may apply for special cases; i.e. something dramatic or petty or heroic enough.

[phydaux]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I once had a player try to sell me a "super strength" character. The PC has an STR of 10 and a 60 pip Multipower.

 

Hand Attack 0 end "punch"

TK no range "super lift"

AOE no range "foot stomp"

Ego Blast " disorienting hand clap"

Power Suppression focus only "I brake things"

 

He said that nothing was illegal, and he had a coherent set of special effects. I told him that, true, being a douchebag ISN'T illegal, and THAT was his special effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I once had a player try to sell me a "super strength" character. The PC has an STR of 10 and a 60 pip Multipower.

 

Hand Attack 0 end "punch"

TK no range "super lift"

AOE no range "foot stomp"

Ego Blast " disorienting hand clap"

Power Suppression focus only "I brake things"

 

He said that nothing was illegal, and he had a coherent set of special effects. I told him that, true, being a douchebag ISN'T illegal, and THAT was his special effect.

 

The Ego Blast seems like the odd power out but the rest seem like a legit TK-Based Brick sfx. I don't see that big of a problem. It just sounds like a mechanics issue with a single slot. Is there other back story you're not sharing?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Most PCs...

 

Multipowers' date=' I've never really had a problem with, but I've always insisted that power frameworks - of any kind - had to have a tight, coherent special effect. I wouldn't for example allow a VPP or MP with the special effect "Super-powers" and I hate the equally diffuse "Magic". "Necromancy" or "Telekinesis" or "Fire Powers" would be fine. [b']I'm even good with a more diffuse "magic" framework as long as it had a clearly defined set of limits[/b] that it operated within. That seems to deal with most problems.

 

Emphasis added - set out what the VPP can and cannot do. This also assists, in my view, in assessing any limitation for a limited special effect. It also enables a definition that precludes stepping on the other PC's toes (eg. "magic can't make you physically stronger or tougher" leaves the Brick in his niche).

 

One thing that I've pointed out to our players is the Power Formats' date=' in essence, are discounts for abilities with a shared theme. Justify your discount, or you don't get it. For the MPs and ECs, be modest with the number of slots- I prefer nine or less. One player tried to get a Luck MP approved with a dozen-and-a-half or so slots - that's excessive for me.[/quote']

 

60 point MP with 18 Ultra slots costs 168 points. 60 point VPP with Cosmic advantages on the pool costs 150. Doesn't seem like the player is milking the system from where I sit.

 

I once had a player try to sell me a "super strength" character. The PC has an STR of 10 and a 60 pip Multipower.

 

Hand Attack 0 end "punch"

TK no range "super lift"

AOE no range "foot stomp"

Ego Blast " disorienting hand clap"

Power Suppression focus only "I brake things"

 

He said that nothing was illegal, and he had a coherent set of special effects. I told him that, true, being a douchebag ISN'T illegal, and THAT was his special effect.

 

What huge advantage did he get? 90 points for the Multipower instead of 60 for a 70 STR means he spent more points. He can't lift and punch at the same time, has no ability to Grab (unless that's in his 40 STR telekinetic lift, in which case he has a much reduced ability to grab). He gets an AoE and an attack against an exotic defense out of the deal, and breaks foci with dispel instead of brute STR. So what's the big deal?

 

That assumes 6e - if he also sacrificed figured characteristics then he's made a decidedly sub-optimal character. Sell back the 30 STUN and +60 STR costs 30. That could be spent to make the 30 STR 0 END, before considering the extra REC and PD he gains.

[Sabelkatten]

Re: Most PCs...

 

The Ego Blast seems like the odd power out but the rest seem like a legit TK-Based Brick sfx. I don't see that big of a problem. It just sounds like a mechanics issue with a single slot. Is there other back story you're not sharing?

Yeah, the Ego attack sounds like it ought to have been a NND/AVLD vs/ flash def, but other than that the only odd thing IMHO is making a super-strong character and not getting any extra strength - it's pretty cheap, so why not?

 

Back to the OP, I love MPs and Multiform, and like VPPs quite a bit. However I also think all those frameworks (MF is really a framework in practice) are underpriced, especially when you start getting creative.

 

I've played a Multiform character with 7 different forms and at least one other framework in each form in several games without much trouble. And before HC crashed I played a character with 2 different Multipowers and a VPP!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Most PCs...

 

The biggest issue with multiform is that it backloads the cost of spending experience points. If all the PC's get awarded X amount of experience, the multiform character has to spend points on the base form before spending any on the other forms.

[LoresLost]

Re: Most PCs...

 

The biggest issue with multiform is that it backloads the cost of spending experience points. If all the PC's get awarded X amount of experience, the multiform character has to spend points on the base form before spending any on the other forms.

 

The min-max-er would have no issue with that (With a permissive GM) -- 5 pts still doubles the number of Multiforms - "Point Miser add 512 forms today!"

[Tasha]

Re: Most PCs...

 

I think that this thread shows one thing. That as GM's we all sometimes have a knee jerk reaction to certain Powers constructs and often say NO before we actually go in and analyze the character.

 

With Phydeux's brick

Hand Attack 0 end "punch"

TK no range "super lift"

AOE no range "foot stomp"

Ego Blast " disorienting hand clap"

Power Suppression focus only "I brake things"

 

He said that nothing was illegal, and he had a coherent set of special effects. I told him that, true, being a douchebag ISN'T illegal, and THAT was his special effect.

 

It ONLY appears that the Player is munchkining the character. If you really look at the character you see that such a power construct (esp with Str 10) isn't nearly as good as a generic Brick with Str 60. In fact a brick with 60 strength is even more versitile. Esp when you start thinking about resisting KB, Resisting Grabs, resisting casual strength, Using Casual Strength (ie pushing through a crowd with 30str is much better than 5 strength).

 

The list of powers would be a great list of brick tricks that would go nice with the regular Brick. I would have pointed out the weaknesses in the character's construction and suggested some changes, which would probably have kept the Brick Tricks Multipower, just fiddled with somewhat.

 

One of our functions as a Hero System GM is to be a gatekeeper for characters entering our campaigns. It's really easy to say no esp to power constructs that you as a GM might never have thought of. The Hard part and what will make you a better GM is to learn how to Say "Yes, but..." Using that simple phrase and trying to always make it your default will make your game much more fun. Also when you are thinking about how you are going to say "Yes, but..." take some extra time to think about your decision. If you are dealing with Oking characters, then go onto another character while you think about the one you have reservations about.