How prevalent is Mental Defense technology?

[krevvie]

I'm running a 5th Ed Champions campaign in Millennium City, using the sourcebooks basically as-written. What I want to know is: how affordable and/or commonplace is technology that gives normal people Mental Defense? Does it even exist? UNTIL's Peacekeeper suits have Power Defense and two types of Flash Defense--but no mental defense. VIPER's got a "Psionic Shielding" option listed that can be installed on any of their helmets, but assuming that many of them can have it as a standard option - but UNTIL can't, at all - seems stupid to me.

 

 

 

My problem here is that I've got a mentalist villain with a mass post-hypnotic-suggestion effect, an AE low-level cumulative Mind Control with a variable trigger. Even a little Mental Defense should leave someone essentially unaffected by him, but the normals will be surprising themselves if he's been around them even a few minutes. He is turning out to be way, WAY more powerful than I expected him to be. I wanted him to start small - utility companies, garbage men, etc and work his way up to the police. Okay, good and fine--it's what I would do if I were conquering the world, I suppose. But once he started walking into police stations and planting commands that leave the heroes blown to bits every time reinforcements arrive, I realized I've written myself into a corner here.

 

 

 

I asked this on the chat room and the gist of the response was, "if a standard supervillain can clear out the police in a fight, why shouldn't a standard mentalist be able to do the same?" They offered that maybe 1% of the population might have spontaneously developed some sort of mental defense, like a low-level mutation or at least (adaptation), but that there was no reason to expect that the MCPD, corporate execs, etc. (to say nothing of trash companies) would have tech like that around for security's sake. Is there an official line on this one?

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[Beast]

ask yourself how prevalent are mentalist as there are villains that do pd damage or ed damage

say if out of 100 villains ve 10,000 police officers

45 do mostly pd damage

45 do mostly ed damage

5 do attacks vs power def

and

5 do mental attacks

 

90% of most of what the police will have to deal with will be PD and ED attacks so all officers will have armor to deal with those

the other 10% of the time only certain units will have that defense(SWAT and Jail guards)

the big thing you as GM will need to figure out is

1 how long have mentalists been known about?

2 how long have mentalists been a pain in the public's butt?

3 a bullet proof vest goes for how much? (7/7)and is how old technology?

4 can mental defense be trained for?

 

IMHO very few will have mental def

those that do will have money or budget to pay for it

[Balabanto]

In my world, I have a simple word.

 

No.

 

No one has mental defense technology unless they possess a measure of mental powers themselves. Mentalists are rare, and therefore scary.

[psyber624]

Mentalists can be tricky. In a world where everyone has MD they are weak and rarely a threat, in a world where no one does its hard to reason why they don't already control the world.

 

As a GM what you need to ask your self is what exactly will be the results on your answer of this question for your campaign. A few things to consider:

 

1. Do you have a Mentalist PC to deal with. If so if EVERYONE has MD of some sort he will rarely be effective, especially if he has no other options to go on. The player will likely become frustrated and feel useless (if the police have the tech you can just BET the villains will have it as well).

 

2. Do your PC's have MD? This is one way that you can let them shine in your world. If the police have MD tech then Mentalist villains are not much of a threat, but if they don't and the PC's DO have some then you can bet that any time there is even a whiff of Mentalist at a crime scene the PC's will be getting the call to step in and take care of it. Keeping this kind of tech out of the hands of the cops can open up a world of possibilities for your players (if they haven't neglected it as well).

 

3. How common are mentalist villains in your campaign? In the main Champions Universe they are fairly common (largely because the special effect of MANY of the magic powers result in Mental attacks as well, so you have both Mentalists and many Magic-Users as MD threats). Logic states that if they are common enough the Powers That Be will come up with SOME method of combating it.

 

4. How prevalent is Super Tech in your campaign, and how powerful is it? In many comic book style campaigns Super Tech is basically no different from magic, anything you can think of goes. If that is the case it may be hard to try and state that MD tech doesn't/can't exist. On the other hand if Super Tech is kept to a more realistic level then it is a lot easier to justify (and stating that Super Tech doesn't affect MD can be used as one method of reigning Super Tech in.)

 

Oh, and one last thing to look at is the effect that MD has on Mental Powers, make sure you understand exactly how much it hinders them. Generally speaking Mental Powers are about twice as expensive as normal powers (Ego Attack is 10pts per d6 vs EB's 5 pts per d6). This makes Mental Defense more powerful than PD/ED when comparing mental powers. For instance a 60 AP EP does 42 damage on average. Common defenses (around 20ish PD/ED) mean that you tend to take 20ish damage from such an attack. However a 60 AP Ego Attack does 21 damage on average. This means that it is roughly balanced (damage wise, it is generally much easier to hit with MCV than with CV) with EB. Even a few points of MD will result in Ego Attacks becoming far weaker than Energy Blasts. If MD is rare then they are balanced vs most, with Mentalists winning out vs Bricks and EB's winning out vs other Mentalists (who almost always have MD). If MD is common then Mentalists are almost always at a loss and are only effective when the target has high defenses but DOESN'T have MD.

 

Then there is the effect of MD on the other Mental Powers (Mind control and the like). Even a few points of MD can greatly limit the effect a Mentalist can achieve. Take Mind Control for instance. A 60 AP Mind Control power averages 42 on the Effect Roll. Thats EGO +30 on a normal human, which yields basically total control. 5 points of MD will drop you down to 37 which will generally mean that EGO + 20 is the best you can get (which is still very powerful of course). Of course this is even more of a problem as you reduce the dice of the Mind Control, so it really depends on your AP standards for your game whether MD will have much of an effect vs Effect Roll abilities (any more than 12 dice and it takes ALOT of MD to drop the effect).

[krevvie]

As a GM what you need to ask your self is what exactly will be the results on your answer of this question for your campaign.

 

Yep, that's the question I've been asking myself, all right I was wondering if there was an "official line" on the subject. Like I said, the source material seems inconsistent, and even if mentalists are rare, enough VPPs exist to make me wonder if mentalists aren't wildly OP, after this little exercise. (*Cumulative* mentalists are something I will be very cautious of in the future, either way!)

 

Thank you (all) for your thoughts!

 

 

[bigbywolfe]

VIPER's got a "Psionic Shielding" option listed that can be installed on any of their helmets, but assuming that many of them can have it as a standard option - but UNTIL can't, at all - seems stupid to me.

 

Nothing says UNTIL can't (or for that matter doesn't) have "psionic shielding" or some other type of mental defense. They almost certainly do, it's just not part of the standard equipment, at any level. It may just be that it's specialty gear only used when facing a known mentalist threat. Viper, on the other hand, might include it as an option to their standard gear for a number of reasons. Maybe in nests in cities with known mentalist heroes all Viper agents where mental protection. Maybe it's common for all Nest Leaders and their lieutenants to wear it (or even just team leaders on missions).

I don't see that one organization having it as standard equipment (if you consider a specialty defense item listed as optional as "standard") and another not as being contradictory to source material or inconsistent in the Champions Universe, and I certainly don't see "since one book doesn't list X as an option the organization simply doesn't have it in any form on any level, for any reason" as being a logical result of what is seen in the books.

[krevvie]

VIPER's got a "Psionic Shielding" option listed that can be installed on any of their helmets' date=' but assuming that many of them can have it as a standard option - but UNTIL can't, at all - seems stupid to me.[/color']

I certainly don't see "since one book doesn't list X as an option the organization simply doesn't have it in any form on any level, for any reason" as being a logical result of what is seen in the books.

 

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to nitpick; I was trying to speculate from the material I had at hand. Thanks for the thought.

 

[phydaux]

First off yes, even a little Mental Defense goes a long way to shutting down a mentalist.

 

Now take into account that not even most supers, PC or NPC, have Mental Defense. The odds of an agent having it are very low, and a street cop nearly zero.

[psyber624]

Well then, to answer your original question, from the source materials I have, in the "Official" Champions Universe there is no evidence of any form of mass produced Mental Defense Technology. Even Viper, probably the most "technological" of World Spanning Super Organizations does not use MD Tech, relying instead on either Training or possibly magic (The entry for the Athame in V:COS just says "Protected Mind") to grant its agents Mental Defense if it is called for. This would make a strong case for it being limited to Super Tech specific to individuals and not mass reproducible (for whatever rationale you care to select for why this sort of thing happens.).

[krevvie]

...there is no evidence of any form of mass produced Mental Defense Technology.

 

Yow. Okay! So the moral of the story is: Cumulative Mind Control is scary. Thanks again!

 

[Lord Liaden]

 

Mentalists worry a lot of Hero gamers, but a few simple, enforceable elements in the rules help keep them in line if you keep them in mind.

 

One is Ego Rolls to break free of mental control. Characters get one before the effect even starts, and unless the mentalist continues to deliberately exert his Power the roll's target number improves with every effort, so they will eventually break free.

 

Then there's the level of effect required to actually have the police "blow the heroes to bits." For the average police officer that's going to be at least EGO +20 unless the heroes have a really bad public image. Against established heroes it will more likely be EGO +30. Level of Effect needed versus how much the mentalist is actually able to bring to bear affects the abovementioned breakout rolls.

 

Related to that is identification of the mentalist. Once a character breaks free he'll know he was under mental control and what the source of the attack was. And unless the Power is Invisible, anyone who can sense the use of mental powers will realize when they're being used around them. With the prevalence of security surveillance today, it won't take long to identify the person behind these incidents, and thus for law enforcement to make his location and capture a priority. If he targets police in stations and the like, at the very least they'll be on high alert for him once he's been identified. If they have them they may even station mentalists working for or with the police at precinct houses in the area he operates in. That can of course include PC mentalists.

 

 

An unwritten rule of my games is that, whenever a villain (or hero) has an ability that's particularly effective, his opposition will take note of that and take countermeasures against it. Even if equipment against Mental Powers isn't standard issue, if high-tech agencies like UNTIL or PRIMUS have access to it they'll start issuing it to agents within this villain's comfort zone.

 

 

 

[Martin2]

With your villain does not the effect wear off after a short time he is away from them? They start getting break out rolls. Also they may start knowing they were taken over so start talking to the authorities. Or are we talking about AOE mega scale and he does not go far away?

 

I think the availability of the mental defence technology will increase with the use of mass mental control use.

 

So if you have relatively few mentalists in your campaign you will have relatively few technlologies and the use of it.

 

In you campaign when it is known that there is a mentalist taking over mass sections of the city / country I think specialist units will start getting the technology to block it. But not your average citizen or police officer.

 

If every other villain or hero is a mentalist you will have it sold in your local corner store (some of it sold by VIPER / Governent agencies with a built in off switch and some of it dodgy technology that does not work).

 

 

[Asperion]

Before you can figure out how common the MD is you need to determine how mental powers work. Once that has been done then some form of defense can be created. While normal muscles can be proof against a bullet, there could be some equivalent for MD. Also like Kevlar, the original tech will be extremely expensive but later versions will reduce the cost.

[Greywind]

Mental Defense technology is as prevalent as you want it to be in your world.

[krevvie]

With your villain does not the effect wear off after a short time he is away from them? They start getting break out rolls. Also they may start knowing they were taken over so start talking to the authorities. Or are we talking about AOE mega scale and he does not go far away? I think the availability of the mental defence technology will increase with the use of mass mental control use. So if you have relatively few mentalists in your campaign you will have relatively few technlologies and the use of it. In you campaign when it is known that there is a mentalist taking over mass sections of the city / country I think specialist units will start getting the technology to block it. But not your average citizen or police officer. If every other villain or hero is a mentalist you will have it sold in your local corner store (some of it sold by VIPER / Governent agencies with a built in off switch and some of it dodgy technology that does not work).

 

Hrm. Maybe I've been playing this wrong. I'd been playing it as a AOE (large, but *not* mega scale) Invisible Cumulative Mind Control with a Variable Trigger. So the mentalist saunters into the police station - where nobody knows who he is - and starts filling out some paperwork or whatever. While he's doing that, he starts flooding the building with a "Defend me at all costs" command, triggered by different cues each time: three clicks on the radio, or a code word from him, or seeing a specific image or whatever.

 

I've been playing it like: the cop (for example) goes along with his life, but breakout rolls don't start because the power hasn't actually happened yet--Variable Trigger. Then, the breakout rolls kick off when the Trigger goes, but Cumulative has meant that the mentalist could get some pretty spectacular EGO+50 lined up with some time: Violently Opposed; Victim Thinks It Was His Idea. They've been making their breakout rolls in due time, but not before critical treachery was accomplished. (Plus the power's Invisible, so heroes with Mental Awareness don't have anything to notice until the bombs go off.) If the breakout rolls start up when the power's put "in place" - before the Trigger fires, in other words - that would make for a completely different situation.

 

At this point, the discussion's a little academic: my hero team got finished off last session, and the mentalist is somewhere sunny, wealthy and surrounded by girls. In all fairness, the PCs missed pretty much every clue out there: when a trusted friend opened up on them, they figured the attack was coming from behind him to frame him, etc. There have been a steady stream of those sort of mistakes, and in the final battle, fully half the team had been hypnotized to attack the other half, anyway. We had a good laugh at the tale of the tape at the end.

 

That said, I've enjoyed the thoughts. I should've registered here years ago.

[Orion]

The source material I own (all of it rather old) indicates that while MD is rare, it is out there. No official stance on it though.

 

In my campaign world, it is pretty rare, only having been introduced a couple years previously. There is a lot of stuff that claims to be MD that is sold to the masses, but almost none of it works any better than tinfoil hats. Basically, the only stuff that actually works is a force field generator that has some MD qualities. I want mentalists to be powerful. But, there are very few mentalists, and most don't have the ability or power to do anything really noticeable. Those that do, unless going against another mentalist, don't even have to role the dice - it is automatic. Because of the way I handle mental powers, one of the first questions for a new campaign is: do you want mental powers to be involved at all? It can be the focus, a very rare thing, or completely ignored, whichever the players prefer. I actually recommend that they choose either lots, or none at all, because of the potential danger. All in all, I find mental powers much better in a book than in a game, and generally try to exclude them.

[bigbywolfe]

Well then, to answer your original question, from the source materials I have, in the "Official" Champions Universe there is no evidence of any form of mass produced Mental Defense Technology. Even Viper, probably the most "technological" of World Spanning Super Organizations does not use MD Tech, relying instead on either Training or possibly magic (The entry for the Athame in V:COS just says "Protected Mind") to grant its agents Mental Defense if it is called for. This would make a strong case for it being limited to Super Tech specific to individuals and not mass reproducible (for whatever rationale you care to select for why this sort of thing happens.).

I think ARGENT has more advanced tech than VIPER, no?

[bigbywolfe]

With your villain does not the effect wear off after a short time he is away from them? They start getting break out rolls. Also they may start knowing they were taken over so start talking to the authorities. Or are we talking about AOE mega scale and he does not go far away? I think the availability of the mental defence technology will increase with the use of mass mental control use. So if you have relatively few mentalists in your campaign you will have relatively few technlologies and the use of it. In you campaign when it is known that there is a mentalist taking over mass sections of the city / country I think specialist units will start getting the technology to block it. But not your average citizen or police officer. If every other villain or hero is a mentalist you will have it sold in your local corner store (some of it sold by VIPER / Governent agencies with a built in off switch and some of it dodgy technology that does not work).

 

Hrm. Maybe I've been playing this wrong. I'd been playing it as a AOE (large, but *not* mega scale) Invisible Cumulative Mind Control with a Variable Trigger. So the mentalist saunters into the police station - where nobody knows who he is - and starts filling out some paperwork or whatever. While he's doing that, he starts flooding the building with a "Defend me at all costs" command, triggered by different cues each time: three clicks on the radio, or a code word from him, or seeing a specific image or whatever.

 

I've been playing it like: the cop (for example) goes along with his life, but breakout rolls don't start because the power hasn't actually happened yet--Variable Trigger. Then, the breakout rolls kick off when the Trigger goes, but Cumulative has meant that the mentalist could get some pretty spectacular EGO+50 lined up with some time: Violently Opposed; Victim Thinks It Was His Idea. They've been making their breakout rolls in due time, but not before critical treachery was accomplished. (Plus the power's Invisible, so heroes with Mental Awareness don't have anything to notice until the bombs go off.) If the breakout rolls start up when the power's put "in place" - before the Trigger fires, in other words - that would make for a completely different situation.

 

At this point, the discussion's a little academic: my hero team got finished off last session, and the mentalist is somewhere sunny, wealthy and surrounded by girls. In all fairness, the PCs missed pretty much every clue out there: when a trusted friend opened up on them, they figured the attack was coming from behind him to frame him, etc. There have been a steady stream of those sort of mistakes, and in the final battle, fully half the team had been hypnotized to attack the other half, anyway. We had a good laugh at the tale of the tape at the end.

 

That said, I've enjoyed the thoughts. I should've registered here years ago.

I don't think Trigger works the way you think it works by what you are saying here.

[psyber624]

 

Well then, to answer your original question, from the source materials I have, in the "Official" Champions Universe there is no evidence of any form of mass produced Mental Defense Technology. Even Viper, probably the most "technological" of World Spanning Super Organizations does not use MD Tech, relying instead on either Training or possibly magic (The entry for the Athame in V:COS just says "Protected Mind") to grant its agents Mental Defense if it is called for. This would make a strong case for it being limited to Super Tech specific to individuals and not mass reproducible (for whatever rationale you care to select for why this sort of thing happens.).

possibly, but I do not believe we have ever had a real writeup of ARGENT as of yet so its hard to say. I know they are also "High Tech" but i haven't seen anything from them with MD on it either (at least not in any villain descriptions where it mentions they got their tech from ARGENT).

[Greywind]

...there is no evidence of any form of mass produced Mental Defense Technology.

 

 

Yow. Okay! So the moral of the story is: Cumulative Mind Control is scary. Thanks again!

 

Television, dude.

[krevvie]

bigbywolfe: How should it go, then? I played it that way based on 5ER's description of the difference between Trigger and Delayed Effect; I would've played Delayed Effect as on-the-spot breakout rolls.

[psyber624]

bigbywolfe: How should it go, then? I played it that way based on 5ER's description of the difference between Trigger and Delayed Effect; I would've played Delayed Effect as on-the-spot breakout rolls.

Trigger WOULD work like that, but pretty much any GM would be highly likely to forbid that construct. Also note that Cumulative only allows you to gain the maximum you could normally reach on the dice without a further advantage, so with all the advantages you are piling on you either are cheesing it to death abusing 1d6 of Mind Control (the sort of thing that got "Increased Maximum Effect" pulled from 6e prior to CC) or your power is so expensive that there really isn't any reason it shouldn't be that effective. (EGO+50 means at least 60 Max Effect so thats at least 10d6 Mind Control, add on AOE, Invisibile, Cumulative, and Variable Trigger and your looking at an AP in the triple digits)