balancing attack vs defense

[phydaux]

(Preface - We use 5th ed)

 

Right now I'm a player in a Fantasy Hero campaign. GM is looking to take a break, so I said I'd get an alternate fantasy campaign going. I want to give the players some guidelines for character creating for my campaign. See, the current GM didn't give character creating guidelines other than "normal human characteristics maximums," and frankly I am breaking his campaign.

 

One of the things I'm noticing is that it's really hard to balance attack with defense. Players will have a PD/ED of around 4-6, with armor that gives 4-8 rPD/rED, and NPCs much less. But here my PC is with 18 STR, a greatsword, and the Deadly Blow talent. I'm swinging 3d6 HtHKA, and one-shotting every mook I encounter. I'm thinking I overbuilt the character. I'd like to have some good character creation guidelines for my players.

 

Now, in the campaign I want to run I want to have sort of an "epic fantasy" feel. I'm thinking 125 points for free, with up to 50 more points from disadds. For "feats" I want to have a 30-45 active points cap. For spells I'm thinking 30-45 point multipower, 1-H gestures & incantations, Thaumaturgy skill roll to change slots, Sorcery skill roll to activate powers, all powers X2 END cost.

 

But that just tells me that mages will be throwing 3d6 RKA left, right & center, dropping mook after mook.

 

Can you guys give me some pointers for running a ~175 point "epic fantasy" campaign that won't be a cake-walk but at the same time won't overwhelm the players?

 

Can you give me some good "monster generation" guidelines?

[Killer Shrike]

Sure...High Fantasy HERO has various documents detailing my opinions and thoughts on Fantasy HERO.

[Christopher]

If you want power level guidelines, the books have those:

6E lists them at the beginning, not certain where they are in 5E.

 

I doubt that a mere 175 Total Points is suiteable for a higher heroic campaign - it is still very close lowest heroic level (only 25 points afar). When you say "high fantasy" I would expect something at the Very Powerfull Heroic Level (wich is somewhat a mix between Heroic and Superheroic Caps). Powerfull at least.

And as versatile as HERO is, one thing it has trouble with is granularity in lower power levels.*

 

About measuring to the Caps:

It is important to count abiltiies as well. If you character could slug around 9 DC HKA with good OCV, he would propably be beyond the Caps for a 175 point game (and it sounds like you played below that powerlevel).

Martial Arts, Combat Skill Levels and Talents must all be considered when comparing Characters to the caps.

(I would count Martial Arts as Flat +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +2 DC[or 2+plus any martial Arts DC bought], CSL as +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +1 DC per full two)

 

 

The Heroic level in general and the lower heroic in particular is quite "deadly". The figures to compare here are:

DC and Defenses

Percentage of Resistant Defenses

 

DC/Defense ratio defines how short the combats are but also how unwanted they are.

In heroic this varriates around 1:1.25. In Superheroics it is 1:1 too 1:1.75

The Resistant Defenses percentage defines how viable Killing Attacks are. It is 50% in heroics, 50-80% in superheroics (this is expected because of the genre conventions about killing).

 

Adding Randomizing Rules like Hit locations can also make the Combat less vavorable for PC's (PC's are around longer then the average NPC, so anything that adds randomness is to thier disvavor).

 

 

*I once collected ideas for a Conversion of the Warhammer 40k Dark Heresy RPG. The best idea I got was to half starting characteristics and lower the free roll part to 8 (for a starting roll of 9-) to get anywhere near the failure chances of the original. But then again Dark Heresy is pretty deadly for the protagonists on purpose.

[phydaux]

Thanks for the reply, Chris. I'm not sure I understand your numbers.

 

A "clothie" will have PD/ED of ~4, with maybe rPD/rED of +2.

A "light fighter" will have PD/ED of ~4, with maybe rPD/rED of +4.

A "heavy melee" will have PD/ED of ~6, with maybe rPD/rED of +6.

 

That light fighter will have a bow or a short sword that does 1d6 KA. With some version of Deadly Blow added in they're averaging 7 BOD & 21 STUN per hit. A clothie that isn't pushing himself will do about the same (2d6 RKA 0 END for 45 active points).

 

A heavy melee will be swinging a Greatsword with Deadly Blow for 3d6 KA, same for the clothie if he's pushing himself (3d6 RKA for 45 active points). That's 10 BOD & 30 STUN (and 8 END a pop for the clothie!).

 

If we assume all PCs have a 15 CON, then light fighters are being CON'ed every time they are hit. Clothies risk being one-shot'ed by heavy melee or other clothies. Even heavy melee are being CON'ed by other heavy melee or pushing clothies.

 

So I guess the short answer is that at 175 points combat is deadly as all hell. UNLESS PCs buy a whole bunch of CSLs and become unhittable. Which "breaks" the game.

 

My initial thought was for 200 point characters, but I thought that might be a bit TOO much.

[Lucius]

Start by BANNING DEADLY BLOW.

 

 

Try encouraging everyone to have Combat Luck. Especially the most lightly armored.

 

 

Encourage Rapid Healing.

 

Make the Automaton Power "Cannot Be Stunned" available as a Talent, perhaps with a Limitation of Requires a Roll (DEX roll, rolls with the blow; CON roll, just plain tough; EGO roll, use willpower to keep going)

 

edit: and did I mention banning Deadly Blow? Oh, and Combat Luck.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[phydaux]

I see what you're saying. That will seriously tone down the muscle-powered PCs. But the clothies will still be slinging 3d6 KAs.

 

If I ban Deadly Blow then I'll have to ratchet down the magic multipower to 30 active points cap (1-H gestures & incantations, Thaumaturgy skill roll to change slots, Sorcery skill roll to activate powers, all powers X2 END cost). AND the active points cap for "feats." That kinda lowers the tone of the whole campaign. It's hard enough as it is to pull off "high fantasy" at 175 points.

[Tasha]

The numbers in Hero System are the Same no matter what edition (this applies to FUZION as well).

 

Assumptions: 1d6 of attack(AKA DC1) does 3.5pts of effect.

 

So your 3d6 RKA does 11.5 BODY (rounded up to 12 BODY) on average. vs Hit Location 10-11 Chest Does 12 BOD and 36 STUN. minus your avg 5PD +5rDef from Armor = 10 PD. This person takes 7BODY and 26STUN. Assuming 15Con the target of this attack is stunned on every round the attack hits and starts to bleed out on the second hit.

 

It would probably be best if the Average Attack was DC 5 or 6 (AKA 1.5d6 KA or 2d6 KA). If the average attack is DC9 then the total average Def should be 18 with a max of 24 Def. (2xDC for avg def, 2.5xDC = Max Def).

 

My Character creation blog post explains the numbers better. http://tashasbraindump.blogspot.com/2010/09/creating-hero-system-characters-101.html

 

I am dead tired after driving 9hrs today. So I'll leave you to puzzle out this further.

[bigbywolfe]

You could lower the DC without lowering the AP so you could still have "feats" like hitting multiple people (AoE or AutoFire) and such.

[phydaux]

I can always have the PCs buy more PD & ED. It's getting them rPD & rED that's the trick.

 

The armor charts in Fantasy Hero 5th ed are fairly stingy with rPD & rED if the PCs & monsters are gonna be hurling around 9 DCs of KA.

 

In my head it comes down to how much magic I allow. I want a lot of magic. So I could:

 

Allow 45 pip multipowers, and tell everyone to buy Deadly Blow & Combat Luck.

 

Ban Deadly Blow & Combat Luck and ratchet magic multipowers down to 30 pips.

 

That seems like the most balanced approach, particularly at 175 points. But is that "enough" magic?

 

And speaking of, can someone do some math for me?

 

30 active point multipower, 1-H G & I, Thaumaturgy skill roll to change slots, Sorcery skill roll activate powers, all slots X2 END

 

Final real cost is? ( Plus 3 for the Thaumaturgy skill & 3 for the Sorcery skill, and another 1 for Literacy and 2 for High Elven, 'cause all magic text books & spell formula are traditionally written in either High Elven or Black Speech)

[Lucius]

I see what you're saying. That will seriously tone down the muscle-powered PCs. But the clothies will still be slinging 3d6 KAs.

 

How?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks the jargon needs a glossary. What's a "clothie?"

 

[Lucius]

I can always have the PCs buy more PD & ED. It's getting them rPD & rED that's the trick.

 

1. Is there an upper limit on Combat Luck?

 

2. Magic items can be available that provide Resistant Defense.

 

3. Magic spells can provide Resistant Defense, including for one's allies.

 

 

The armor charts in Fantasy Hero 5th ed are fairly stingy with rPD & rED if the PCs & monsters are gonna be hurling around 9 DCs of KA.

 

In my head it comes down to how much magic I allow. I want a lot of magic. So I could:

 

Allow 45 pip multipowers, and tell everyone to buy Deadly Blow & Combat Luck.

 

Ban Deadly Blow & Combat Luck and ratchet magic multipowers down to 30 pips.

 

That seems like the most balanced approach, particularly at 175 points. But is that "enough" magic?

 

And speaking of, can someone do some math for me?

 

30 active point multipower, 1-H G & I, Thaumaturgy skill roll to change slots, Sorcery skill roll activate powers, all slots X2 END

 

Final real cost is? ( Plus 3 for the Thaumaturgy skill & 3 for the Sorcery skill, and another 1 for Literacy and 2 for High Elven, 'cause all magic text books & spell formula are traditionally written in either High Elven or Black Speech)

 

Well, that's an interesting approach - one Skill to change slots, a separate Skill to activate each slot. You could even, say, base one on EGO and the other on INT.

 

Note that these Skills take an Active Point penalty too - so if your mage pays 3 pts and gets a base 12 or 13 roll, they then have only a 9 or 10 to switch their power into a chosen spell and then a 9 or 10 again to actually get the spell off. Then if it's an attack spell, they still need to make an attack roll. This could become frustrating for your players.

 

If you take the No Active Point Penalty option, they're still making up to three rolls to get an attack off the first time and it's not even giving them a break on cost. But if you use No Active Point Penalty and Subject to Skill vs Skill contests, not only does the Limitation have some value but you've created an interesting tactical option as spellcasters can now try to counterspell one another.

 

Players may want to buy 3 pt Skill Levels usable with both Thaumaturgy and Sorcery. Problem is, a Level is only usable for one thing in a phase, so if you use it to switch slots you can't use it to activate the new slot. But 3 pt Levels with a Limitation, only for Skill vs Skill contests, might be useful.

 

As for what a Multipower costs, that depends. The RESERVE for example might cost only 12 pts, like so:

 

Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll to switch slots (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -1/4); all slots Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll to activate powers (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

 

But then you still have to buy the individual spells.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[phydaux]

 

How?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks the jargon needs a glossary. What's a "clothie?"

 

Yeah, that's me using MMO RPG terms in a PnP RPG again.

 

A clothie is a character that wears cloth armor, like a mage or a priest. If i ban Deadly Blow but still let mages have 45 point multipowers then they will be slinging 9 DCs while the melee types will get 6 max. So I don't really want to go that route as it will make mages too powerful.

[phydaux]

I think I'll just tell the players "Look, combat will be DEADLY. The monsters will be slinging 9 DCs, and will built to be on the receiving end of 9 DCs on the regular. Build your characters accordingly."

[phydaux]

BTW, thanks for the math. 12 will get you 30, and 15 will get you 45. Plus another 9 points for the skills package.

 

And they would only need to make three skill rolls if they switched spells at the top of their action phase. If they picked one spell and stuck with it then it would opnly be two rolls, the spell activation roll and the to hit roll.

 

As far as "counterspelling," the attempt to counterspell would be considered an attack action, no?

 

 

 

 

 

(BTW, does anyone else HATE this new forum software? The old forums were SOOO much better. Did Microsoft make this software? Feels like it. Like a lot of the changes were just change for the sake of change. I hate the new version of Office, too. AND Windows 8.)

[Lucius]

BTW' date=' thanks for the math. 12 will get you 30, and 15 will get you 45.[/quote']

 

No it won't. 15 will get you 37. 18 will get you 45.

 

And again, this is just paying for "the gift," it means the character has magic potential. To actually have useful spells, you need to add "slots" to that Multipower.

 

Plus another 9 points for the skills package.

 

And they would only need to make three skill rolls if they switched spells at the top of their action phase. If they picked one spell and stuck with it then it would opnly be two rolls, the spell activation roll and the to hit roll.

 

Which is still twice as many rolls as the melee fighters are making. And a fighter can attack with a sword and then next phase block with a shield without having to make an extra roll.

 

Not to mention that the fighter types are probably getting weapons and armor without paying character points for them, but the mage has to spend points on spells.

 

On the other hand, a properly built and played mage has a great deal of flexibility.

 

As far as "counterspelling' date='" the attempt to counterspell would be considered an attack action, no?[/quote']

 

I think that's at the discretion of the Game Operations Director. I'd say it's a half phase action, but could be aborted to as a defensive action.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

(BTW, does anyone else HATE this new forum software? The old forums were SOOO much better. Did Microsoft make this software? Feels like it. Like a lot of the changes were just change for the sake of change. I hate the new version of Office, too. AND Windows 8.)

The palindromedary suggests not complaining too much, because it's the only alternative. The old software was too vulnerable to attack, and bizarre as it sounds, there are apparently people who hate Hero Games enough that they were trying to destroy the website.

 

 

 

[bluesguy]

(Preface - We use 5th ed)One of the things I'm noticing is that it's really hard to balance attack with defense. Players will have a PD/ED of around 4-6' date=' with armor that gives 4-8 rPD/rED, and NPCs much less. But here my PC is with 18 STR, a greatsword, and the Deadly Blow talent. I'm swinging 3d6 HtHKA, and one-shotting every mook I encounter. I'm thinking I overbuilt the character. I'd like to have some good character creation guidelines for my players.[/quote']

 

Good plan. Here is what I did for the campaign I am running now http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/valdorian-age-rising-power-on-the-frontier/wikis/gaming-mechanics-information

 

[Lucius]

Planning for spellcasters to have END Reserve ("mana points" ) or use their own personal END?

 

If the latter, in 5th edition, I foresee lots of very healthy magi with CON scores of 18.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary foresees spells with the "costs END only to Activate" Advantage, but maybe that's only if you have a munchkin like Lucius around

[Lucius]

 

Here's a present for your spellbook

 

Confound the Black Speech: (Total: 45 Active Cost, 22 Real Cost) Darkness to Hearing Group 3" radius, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Selective Target (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Based On EGO Combat Value (+1), Range Modifiers Apply (-1/4) (45 Active Points); Limited Power Only to prevent hearing or speaking the Black Speech (-1), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Requires A Skill Roll to activate powers (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost: 14)

 

This spell makes the target aware of the inherent absurdity and futility of Evil, such that the language of Evil ceases to be meaningful; attempts to speak in the Accursed Tongue come out as gibberish, nor is the subject of the spell able to understand that language. Each target within the Radius must be targetted and rolled against individually. The spell is Uncontrolled, so the effects continue after points are switched out of the slot, but once those points are switched it can be dispelled by any spellcaster not already effected winning a Skill vs Skill contest against the original caster, or after the first minute anyone effected may make an EGO roll to break out at each step of the Time Chart. Necromancers, Diabolists and the like will usually not be able to cast their spells because the incantations are all in the Black Speech.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says the problem with a Multipower is, interesting and flavorfull spells like the above are apt to fall by the wayside in favor of things like a general "Silence" spell,

 

[phydaux]

Planning for spellcasters to have END Reserve ("mana points" ) or use their own personal END?

 

If the latter, in 5th edition, I foresee lots of very healthy magi with CON scores of 18.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary foresees spells with the "costs END only to Activate" Advantage, but maybe that's only if you have a munchkin like Lucius around

 

 

Personal END. I think that's more in genera.

[Lucius]

 

 

Personal END. I think that's more in genera.

 

And in 5th edition, so the Age "Disadvantage" is in play.

 

Do I take a wizard with Age, to get the high INT and EGO? Or a less wise but also less frail spellcaster who has the CON and END to put a lot of power behind the spells?

 

Either way, I might want

 

The Pause that Refreshes: (Total: 40 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) +20 REC (40 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; -1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Requires A Skill Roll to activate powers (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll, RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (Real Cost in Multipower: 1)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary doesn't even remember - CON IS one of the Characteristics restricted by Age isn't it?

 

 

 

[phydaux]

I'm thinking:

 

Refreshing Ring - +20 REC, OIF Ring. 10 Active Points, Real cost 7.

[Markdoc]

Just based on my own experience.

 

1, Yeah, it's relatively easy to overpower defences: combat in FH can be pretty deadly and I think that's OK. That said, you don't want to go overboard. In 5th Ed. Deadly Blow was way, way overpowering, and as a GM, I banned it as soon as I read the rules and saw how it worked. It's OK to allow extra damage (in my mind, mandatory, if you want meleers to be able to compete with spell-slingers), but it should not be so cheap and useful that it becomes a must-have. 6th Ed. Deadly Blow works the way I have been doing it for years and is good and balanced.

 

2. Combat luck is good - but you don't want to go overboard with that either: it's relatively cheap to make yourself nigh-invulnerable to mundane weapons - especially if you let it stack with armour (as a GM, I no longer allow that). Think about it: when the city guard shouts "Stop or we'll shoot!" do you want your PCs to just flip them the bird because they know that a boring old crossbow has little chance of doing more than stun them?

 

3. Neither of those changes affect spellcasters. You say you want a lot of magic - but do you want all PCs to be spellcasters? If you don't tie magic down somehow, that's where you'll most likely end up. I allow multipowers (in fact, other power frameworks as well, like VPPs) and I don't set active point limits. But OTOH, I use other means to prevent spell-casters ruling the roost.

 

It's important to remember that Hero system started off as Champions. If you let the players design their own spells, and give them free rein to cast spells off their own END, what you are going to end up with is a bunch of mini-superheroes flying around, not anything that looks like a traditional fantasy game. If that's what you want - cool! I've run games like that sometimes.

 

But if that's not what you have in mind .... beware. As an example, a 45 point multipower will give your spell caster enough oomph to cast a 3d6 RKA. Why use a bow, when this outclasses almost any archer (and you can use a shield while casting it)? And you can build much gnarlier attacks if you want to get fussy. It'll also give enough oomph to build a 20 PD/10 ED, 0END forcefield, which will stop pretty much any mundane attack cold - and you can have it up all day! Add to that the fact that with 45 points you can fly, turn invisible, entangle your opponent, etc all for a fairly small investment to add each extra power ... Sure, you can't do all of those things at once, but you can usually do any two or three of them at a reduced level of effectiveness (for example, 2 points in flight to hover out of reach of those pesky melee types, a 6PD forcefield over the top of your mundane armour to blunt any stray arrows, and a 2d6RKA, +1 STUN multiple attack), with the option to go nova whenever you want. Unless you are a masochist, why play a melee or rogue type? All you are going to end up doing is being blinded, entangled, zapped, etc. Unless you set grounds that provide some limit to magic, you have the problem that D&D has, only it's exacerbated by the fact that there is no practical limit to how many spells the casters can use each day.

 

cheers, Mark

[phydaux]

Thing is Mark, if we look at "old school" RPGs then that's exactly what PC's COULD do.

 

A 12th level D&D whatever was free to ignore 0 level city guards all he wanted. And a 12th level Magic User could pull all KINDS of spells out of his, um, robes.

 

FWIW, I scrounged up an old copy of Hackmaster's Little Keep on the Borderlands. For those of you who don't know, it's an over the top, hack & slash version of the classic D&D module played mostly for laughs. I plan to run the PCs through this, plus Into the Unknown, slightly upgraded with a few Grimtooth traps.

 

"That's nice, Bob, but the Owl Bear has four Combat skill Levels in Wuss Slap. Roll to hit, monkey-boy..."

[Markdoc]

Thing is Mark, if we look at "old school" RPGs then that's exactly what PC's COULD do.

 

A 12th level D&D whatever was free to ignore 0 level city guards all he wanted. And a 12th level Magic User could pull all KINDS of spells out of his, um, robes.

 

FWIW, I scrounged up an old copy of Hackmaster's Little Keep on the Borderlands. For those of you who don't know, it's an over the top, hack & slash version of the classic D&D module played mostly for laughs. I plan to run the PCs through this, plus Into the Unknown, slightly upgraded with a few Grimtooth traps.

 

"That's nice, Bob, but the Owl Bear has four Combat skill Levels in Wuss Slap. Roll to hit, monkey-boy..."

Oh, no argument there: we've just hit 11th level in our GestaltD20 game and my Cleric/warlock has become a flying, invisible, acid-spraying, magically-enhanced engine o' doom. In our pathfinder game, we've reached the point where we are designing our own personal demiplane, and discussing what speed we want time to run at. I was just pointing out that that was where you're going. If that's the game style you want, go for it!

 

cheers, Mark

[Alcamtar]

Wizards can stay as is. If you assume 15 AP power spell level, staying at 0th, then a mere 3rd level spell is 60 AP. Enough for 3d6K area effect, or 4d6K on a single target. That's a tactical death spell for mooks. What's needed is to power up your fighters. They need to be Bricks. Plate armor is 8 rPD and hardly encumbering. Add a level of combat luck and your up to 11 rPD easy. If that's not enough bring out the 12 PD dwarven mithril suit. Power defense to protect against spell damage. Also relax the limits on stats. If a D&D fighter can have 30 hp, why can't a FH fighter have 30 BODY? Or 20 PD? Build characters like low powered superheroes. How about a fighter multi power for combat tricks? Self healing (first aid, a ready supply of potions, catching your breath...?) Martial arts can be very effective for both offense and defense. HERO is unique in that it has the built in tools to solve these problems, but you have to use them. If you restrict fighters to only skills and equipment and NCM they are hamstrung. In D&D fighters are magical demigods, they just use different tools.