Players forcing my hand

[Stone]

For the first time since I started GM'ing, I find myself in a position of having my players forcing me change the tone of a campaign. Currently I have 3 PC's in this game. The breakdown is as follows 1) Wind/Ice powers - flight, entangles, EB 2) Fire EB - FF & RKA 3) Animal (giant armored anteater - please don't ask) - armor, HKA, tunneling.

 

The problem is the two w/the KA's like using them against normals. I have tried to explain to them that is gonna make the authorities very unhappy, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears. The wind/ice PC is also having the same thoughts as me. He is feeling some of the negative effects by being no longer able to speak to police.

 

I afraid I'm gonna have to have the authorities start traking them down and that is not something I am looking forward to doing. Any suggestions?

[Vondy]

Re: Players forcing my hand

 

Originally posted by Stone

For the first time since I started GM'ing, I find myself in a position of having my players forcing me change the tone of a campaign. Currently I have 3 PC's in this game. The breakdown is as follows 1) Wind/Ice powers - flight, entangles, EB 2) Fire EB - FF & RKA 3) Animal (giant armored anteater - please don't ask) - armor, HKA, tunneling.

 

The problem is the two w/the KA's like using them against normals. I have tried to explain to them that is gonna make the authorities very unhappy, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears. The wind/ice PC is also having the same thoughts as me. He is feeling some of the negative effects by being no longer able to speak to police.

 

I afraid I'm gonna have to have the authorities start traking them down and that is not something I am looking forward to doing. Any suggestions?

 

Does the federal government have a superteam?

 

Wait until they kill the fed investigating them and have the fed super-team hit the PCs like a tornado and, should they survive, send them to the super-clink.

 

Or ask the players what they would prefer to play since they are clearly not interested in the superhero genre as most would understand it.

 

Or recommend to them they make more traditional dark champions characters and run a different sort of game.

 

I think the presence of a super-ant eater is evidence enough that one of the players isn't interested in taking the genre seriously and is "sending you a message"

[Guest cubist]

If any of them have DNPCs, have them become part of a villainous plot- they are given weak super power devices and strappwed to bombs and then forced to fight for the villains against your 'heroes'. Otherwise, drop the long elbow of the law across them

[Stone]

The PC playing the anteater always plays off the wall characters...even in other types of genres. She likes to be the "comic-relief".

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Stone

The PC playing the anteater always plays off the wall characters...even in other types of genres. She likes to be the "comic-relief".

 

Have you considered running TOON?

[Stone]

Originally posted by D-Man

Have you considered running TOON?

 

No, but she has! I just refuse to be a carebear!

[phydaux]

Same thing ALWAYS happens in my games.

 

Ever play the old sci-fi RPF Traveller? The rule of thumb was all campaigns become pirate campaigns after six months game time, even if the GM doesn't intend it that way.

 

The way I've gotten around it this time in my Champs campaign is to have the PCs play villains from the off.

 

And for the local UNTIL goons to carry 1D6 Autofire X10 Penitrating RKAs, OAF 64 charges.

 

See, in my universe UNTIL takes down murderous supervillains the same way J. Edger took down Dillanger:

 

"DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA"

 

(And no, my players haven't learned about Hardened Defenses yet, and I'm not telling them, and if they're too lazy to read FRED then it's their OWN fault.)

[assault]

Originally posted by phydaux

Ever play the old sci-fi RPF Traveller? The rule of thumb was all campaigns become pirate campaigns after six months game time, even if the GM doesn't intend it that way.

 

And this is bad, because...?

 

This is actually one of the good things with Traveller - you can switch subgenre. My campaigns, and most of those I've played in, because my characters tend to pull them this way, tend to start as relatively law-abiding trader games, and gradually get a bit wilder. If they last long enough, they tend to become empire building games.

 

Of course, this requires the players to be smart enough to not have their characters going on major killing sprees in civilised space, which can be a bit of a problem.

 

Champions has a bit of a problem in this respect - subgenre shifts are much harder. I'm not quite sure what the proper escalation path would be. Perhaps it would be from bush league starting heroes to "world's greatest superteam" status, with a few major exercises in saving the world as milestones on the path.

 

Yeah, that would be it: go from being the equivalent of the (original) Teen Titans or Infinity Inc, and wind up as the Justice League or Justice Society. The Marvel equivalent might be: X-Men (or New Mutants) to Avengers. (But then, I like the FF more than the Avengers!)

 

Of course, that really only works if the higher powered scenarios are as interesting as the lower end ones. At least sometimes, lower powered games can be more interesting than the Cosmic Peril of the Week.

 

Alan

[phydaux]

Originally posted by assault

Of course, that really only works if the higher powered scenarios are as interesting as the lower end ones. At least sometimes, lower powered games can be more interesting than the Cosmic Peril of the Week.

 

Well, I totally agreel Low powered adventures actually require imagination. All the high powered, cosmic stuff requiors is deciding what all-powerful space being will try to eat earth this week.

[Killer Shrike]

Have them incarcerated and let them create new characters. Exercise GM veto power and dont allow the heavy KAs if you think they will be abused.

[phydaux]

Yeah. It's just not genera for heros to use KAs. And if villain PCs use a lot of KAs, then NPC heros come looking for them.

[Ghost who Walks]

Well, I see two solutions. Deal with it in the game, or out of the game.

 

In Game: If the characters want to be full time vigilantes, that is their choice. But you are the one who has to implement it. If they like splattering normals, have normals come after them. An anit-metahumaan hate/political group, for example. Also have normals with sniper rifles and rocket launchers take pot shots at them while they are at Starbucks.

 

If that ain't enough, some of the normals they killed have superpowered relatives who come looking for payback. If the players aren't playing by the "superhero code", then why should anyone else?

 

Out of Game: This is tougher, because I don't fully know your situation. But I've been in similar ones. Players have all sorts of experience playing games, and sone of them are a little dark. While you can play the Hero system dark, it really isn't designed for it. A comparison to most gaming systems reveals it. HERO divides the dame you do into stun and body, and you exped endurance to make it happen. All pretty simple, but you actually have to work to kill somebody. This if a bit different than other games, where normals get a couple dice of HP.

 

If they want to do a darker style of Champions, you should try the Dark Champions books, done back under 4th edition. Everyone carried a gun, and everyone could be killed by one. Very bloody, very realistic. Not very comic-superheroic though.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by phydaux

Yeah. It's just not genera for heros to use KAs. And if villain PCs use a lot of KAs, then NPC heros come looking for them.

 

Its not in the golden and silver age genres to be certain. The iron age genre is somewhat more forgiving in this sense, but even that has variances in lethality.

 

I would recommend a sit down to hash out wants and expectations. There are two possibilities:

 

1) they want to play something else (or a different subgenre)

2) they don't understand the genre properly

[Magmarock]

Or...

 

You can sit down with the players and explain to them this is not the type of game you want to run... that you just don't enjoy the hack-n-slack style.

 

Ask them if one of them are ready to run the game for awhile. Reboot the campaign. Then make a PC to match the new campaign designed by the new GM.

 

On the other hand, if your players are being disruptive just for the sake of disruption, them maybe its time to find new players.

Mags

[Lord Liaden]

My first choice, as with others here, is to discuss the matter with the players and see if you can reach a compromise, either by adjusting the parameters of your game or them adjusting their play style. Occasionally, though, hack 'n slash players just don't comprehend why icing people can be a bad thing - you're getting rid of enemies and troublemakers permanently. Unfortunately, though, trying to make that point forcefully by giving them new enemies motivated by the deaths of previous foes often spurs them to just fight harder.

 

If you do need to remind them that their actions have detrimental consequences, it can be more effective to target their vanity. Have the relatives of the people they've killed publicly revile them. If they haven't done something that the law can touch them for, let the relatives launch civil suits. If the "heroes" don't change their ways they develop a reputation as loose canons. They can't go anywhere without the media hounding them, asking embarrassing questions. Crowds start picketing their headquarters, people spit on them in the street, little children run away from them. Even their own DNPCs start dressing them down and may actively turn against them.

 

It's sometimes easier to accept that the whole world hates you, than that the whole world has contempt for you.

[Mightybec]

Have them be visited by a commando team a la X-Men 2 armed with heavy fire power and NND's.

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by Stone

The PC playing the anteater always plays off the wall characters...even in other types of genres. She likes to be the "comic-relief".

Kind of hard to be the humor person when you have bloody entrails stuck to your claws...

 

Many good suggestions in this thread - the most important thing is to talk to your players first, and let them know that this isn't the way you envisioned the campaign. If they're dead-set on using killing attacks after the talk, then it's time to change the tone of the campaign one way or another. Put them in a few situations where if they kill people, the organized supergroups will hunt them down. Maybe even talk with the wind character about being part of the group that hunts them.

 

Once the killers are in jail, they have the option of reforming (maybe being released from jail on the condition that they work directly for the government), or making new characters.

[Guest Confusinator]

Great suggestions, although I know that they will fall on deaf ears with this particular group. I think you should ditch them and go find some better players, but barring that.

 

Involve a mystical element into the campaign, someone like the Watcher. Have him take the player's powers away at a very inconvenient time, like when about to open a can of whoop ass on some normals. Let's see how they do against the agents when they don't have their powers anymore. I'm willing to bet that none of them bothered with any basic martial arts skills. Let them get humiliated a few times by normals, and see if they learn their lesson.

 

I would be hesitant to give your agents any more firepower, since that might backfire and reinforce their idea that all normals must be killed.

 

Another option is to bring in a sponsor for them, someone who supports their current behavior. After a few sessions, let it be revealed that the sponsor is a front for an organization the equivalent of Nazi's or White Supremisists. Let them realize that they have become the hero of every two-bit, redneck, racist in the world, and see how they like that bitter pill.

 

Or, hound them to death with civil litigation. Have them served with papers in every session. If they ignore that action, have the court rule against them, and repo their entire world around them. Have the media play up how pathetic they are, big bullies afraid to defend their actions in a court of law. Have society ridicule their behavior, by comparing it to a model team. Set them up for failure, because of their action (oops, you just killed the one guy who could shut down this reactor), and when they give up and think they have lost, then let the model team come in and save the day. They will definately not like being outdone by NPC's, but, if you emphasize that they failed and the NPC's succeeded because of behavior, perhaps they will change.

 

I don't think they are going to change (having played with this particular group myself). You have to force them to change by using the ol' carrot or stick routine.

 

It would be interesting to see them get beat by a five man squad of Viper agents. If you could pull of a trap using any weaknesses they might have.

 

If none of this works, change to an ultradark campaign where the odds are relatively good that one or more of them are going to die each session. They might get tired of making new characters every week and beg you to go back to a more four colored campaign.

 

Don

[The Watcher]

Of course, you could always turn the tables on them and have them beaten by a bunch of villains turned heroes, who are now getting all the acclaim and respect that they used to have.

[Stone]

Well...the Fire PC has a weakness of darkness. He does not recharge (no recoveries) and therefore is a little afraid of the dark. I just happen to have a character whos speciality is darkness, so that is easy enough. The bright point is the Wind/Ice PC also has fire/fire power supression and has said he will use this against the fire guy. Could be an interesting fight.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Hmm, in my experience PvP combat rarely ends well either in game or out. I think coming to an overall understanding of what everybody wants is your best bet for group cohesion and happiness.

[Stone]

Oh, without a doubt there would be some hard feelings if it comes to a fight. I'm gonna try to head it off if I can. I am hoping that I can talk to everyone and find out what the problem is. Confusinator knows the group I am talking about, I'm sure he will agree a fight may be unavoidable.

[Mr. Negative]

I have to second some of the suggestions here.

 

First, see if you can come to a compromise with the PC's about killing attacks. Perhaps you are adamant about the genre and cannot, but perhaps you can come up with some villains who they can kill with impunity (perhaps zombies/reanimated ninjas/robots). If they can occasionally let loose, perhaps they can restrain their tendencies.

 

Secondly, perhaps you might consider running (or allowing one of them to run) a "filler" campaign (one with little continuity--like a series of "one-shots" where killing attacks are more common, and more accepted). Ninja Hero can be good for this, as quite a load of goons get mowed down in the average martial arts flick. Alternate this with the main campaign, so that you get your "silver age" feel and they get to kill somebody.

 

Third, and I've said this before, but not on this thread, PCs often use killing attacks BECAUSE they know the GM won't violate the genre, and isn't going to run "boring" arrest/trial/lawsuit/weepy family members adventures. I still firmly feel that many PCs "know" that the GM isn't going to unload the same type of killing attacks on them that they unload on their enemies. Thus, the PCs use the genre as a shield, violating it for their own purposes, but anticipating that the GM won't respond in kind (I don't think that many do this consciously, but I still think it happens).

 

Shatter that little illusion. If the PCs use overpowered killing attacks on their opponents, use overpowered killing attacks on them. Unload a 11d6 Autofire, Fully Invisible, NND, Does Body, Area of Effect, Line of Sight Killing Attack on them, and then let the survivor discover that Dr. Murder has invented a Gamma Ray laser. That's an extreme (and not entirely serious) example, but you can very effectively demonstrate to the PCs (and ON the PCs, which is often more effective) that PC restraint is met with GM restraint, and PC overkill is met with GM overkill. There's nothing inherently unrealistic or unfair about a villian using a land mine/shaped charge explosive/poison gas/radioactive dust attack on a PC. It's just part of the "genre" that such realistic and effective ambush attacks are not usually made by villains. They violate the genre; you violate the genre.

 

Or, to paraphrase "The Untouchables":

 

They send one of yours to the morgue. You send one of theirs into an open volcano.

 

This is an extreme solution; but falls short of actually quitting the group. In some groups, it may actually be functionally equivalent to quitting the group. However, if you can't come to a negotiated settlement with the group, don't just quit; quit with style. On the other hand, some groups can accept the short, sharp shock and realize what you were getting at. This is a SHARED reality. If one member isn't having his gaming needs met, even if that member is the GM, then the consensus isn't working.

 

On the other hand, consider the same thing from the Players' perspective (not the PCs). There's nothing INHERENTLY wrong with wanting to play a game where your PC can use killing attacks. This is no more or less mature than wanting to play a game where your PC is of a different gender, or a different species, or a vampire. Seriously look at whether you can accomodate a group which wants to play in a "killing-OK" genre.

 

Speaking from my own experience, I spent a lot of time developing a world/magic system/characters to create a particular series of adventures in a particular way. Specifically, I was using GURPS to recreate the Against the Giants series of modules from D&D (gasp). However, I used the system to create detailed, highly experienced heroes with realistic personalities and fully detailed personal histories. I really wanted the PCs to experience a "classic" adventure from a new perspective. The PCs seemed excited about this, and seemed to understand that the genre was far more "realistic" and less "heroic" than D&D. I made it perfectly clear that their goal wasn't to kill the giants, or even to kill the "Big Boss" giants, but to learn the motivations and players involved in the recent giant attacks, and to scout out the Giants' holdings so that sufficient military might could be brought to bear upon them.

 

However, after numerous sessions of play, it really became evident that the PCs wanted to fight bad guys. Specifically, they wanted "stand-up" fights against opponents they could realistic defeat in a pitched battle. They were quite unhappy "running and gunning" against huge brutes that could easily outnumber and overpower them, and I was increasily having to "contrive" events so that they could escape to fight again. Despite having to throw quite a few weeks of preparation (and my original ideas) out the window, we decided instead to run a Ninja Hero campaign. I didn't abandon my goals. I just abandoned some specific particular goals. I'm still running a game that I'm excited about, and with people that I want to play with. I'm just not running the game that I originally envisioned.

 

Wow....that was long and pointless.

[Korvar]

Another thing you may want to consider if you're going the "in game consequences" route, is to give them an "in game" warning. If there's an NPC hero who they respect, or at least fear, have them come over and give them a friendly warning. Lay out what might happen to them if they continue down the route they are going.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by D-Man

Its not in the golden and silver age genres to be certain. The iron age genre is somewhat more forgiving in this sense, but even that has variances in lethality.

Killer vigilantes were a feature of the Golden Age. Examples include - The Comet, Flag Man, Hangman, Hunchback, Laughing Mask, Mouthpiece, Spider (an archer, not the pulp character) and Witness. Both Superman and Batman were initially prepared to kill but swiftly cleaned up their acts.

 

You're right about the Silver Age, mind.

 

In the late 80s/early 90s we came full circle with a return to gun-toting killers exemplified by the Punisher.