Speak With Dead - Different ways to build

[bigdamnhero]

One of my players wants his PC to have a spell to Speak With The Dead. Usually I see this sort of thing written up as a Summons (Grimoire p236), based on the cost of a standard Ghost write-up. But this treats all dead souls the same, which is narratively unsatisfying IMO. Basing the Summons on the deceased’s Total Points makes a little more sense, but I don’t know that Dead Superhero Guy’s 100-points worth of energy blast powers is that relevant here either.

 

More to the point, the cost of Summons seems balanced if you’re summoning something to (potentially) fight for you, but seems way overpriced for an information-gathering ability. Yeah, you can slap an “I Just Want To Talk” Limitation on it to bring down the Real Cost, but that doesn’t help you fit the AP cost inside your Framework or the campaign’s AP cap. (The Grimoire version is 209 AP!) Finally, the standard EGO contest to compel # of tasks seems arbitrary in this instance, since “tell me your name” and “tell me your biggest secret” both count as equivalent tasks.

 

So I’ve been thinking about other ways we could model this.

 

If all you’re really looking for is “tell me what happened here” type information, then you could almost go with Retrocognition based on Hearing, and specify that it’s tied to an individual rather than a location or object. Then the whole  “I summon that guard’s ghost to tell me what happened” part just becomes sfx. (You can throw on time modifiers if you want it to be harder to summon people that have been dead a long time.) But that creates a fairly narrow power, as you can’t ask the ghost why it did X, what it knows about Y, etc. And again, it treats all dead souls the same. Plus it’s an all-or-nothing effect, which I generally try to avoid.

 

So then I thought, how about Telepathy with Transdimensional: The Afterlife? (Whether that’s one dimension or several depends on your campaign world.) This way, your ability to get information out of the deceased is based partly on their EGO, mental defenses, etc. and the mechanics are clearly spelled out. I like that narratively it’s easier to get info out of Dead Red Shirt #4, who is less likely to know important secrets, but probably harder to get info out of High-Ego-Leader-Guy, who is more likely to know more useful things. By RAW, I believe you’d have to slap Indirect on it too (which I don’t quite see the logic behind, but whatever). And to be technically correct, you might have to buy Mind Scan to first locate the deceased and then Telepathy to talk to get them to talk? That could be pricey, unless you’re putting it in a Framework (which is the case with this PC).

 

The conscious/subconscious/memories distinction seems a little murky when dealing with the dead, so we’d probably want to establish other guidelines, like: EGO+0 => Whatever you were thinking about when you died; EGO+10 => anything from the day you died; etc.

 

Alternately, if you want to make the ghost’s willingness to talk more of a factor, you could go with Transdimensional Mind Control: Only To Compel Dead Souls To Tell Me The Truth. Again, the mechanism is clearly spelled out, and it makes it easy to get info from dead allies, but harder to get Big Secrets out of dead enemies.

 

OTOH, if you really wanted to go simple you could just slap Transdimensional on your Streetwise Skill and call it a day…

 

I’m rambling here. What does Herodom Assembled think? How have you seen this built, and how did it work for you?

[IndianaJoe3]

Either the Retrocognition or Spirit Telepathy would work, depending on the SFX you wanted and how spirits work in the campaign.

[Greywind]

Just don't sell a square mile of your space station to the Brakiri.

[bigdamnhero]

Just don't sell a square mile of your space station to the Brakiri.

Ooo, now you make me want to stat that out as some kind of AOE Summon... 

[Greywind]

Don't forget the EDM. Garibaldi had to go through a lot of hoops just so Lochley could talk to Sheridan.

[ghost-angel]

 You could get really weird with it:

 

KS: Everything The Dead Soul Knows; 40- (70 AP, I wouldn't let this be an INT based KS); Requires A Roll (whatever their spell casting roll is) -1/2; Extra Time (5 minutes, only to cast) -1; Requires The Body The Dead Soul Used To Occupy -1/2; Incantations (throughout casting/asking) -1/2; Concentration (1/2 DCV, throughout casting) -1/2; Cost: 15 Real Points.

 

Then start imposing penalties based on relationship to the caster (friendly ghosts want to give up information, enemies not so much); How long the body has been dead, the type of question asked, how long the questioning has gone on (even friendlies want to get on with the afterlife).

 

Anything short of a botched roll (18) is looking at a minimum success of 23, which means even with penalties the Caster should be able to get some information.

 

This allows for a wide range of subjectivity to slip into the conversation. Are you pissing off the ghost? the next roll gets a -10. Maybe allow the 'ghost' to have an EGO Roll, the success level of that = the penalty to the SR of the question (EGO Roll by 7 = additional -7 to the roll). Penalities can add up fast in some cases. Others, not so much but then the ghost may not know anything either....

[NuSoardGraphite]

You could add the Extra Dimensional advantage to his/her senses. Especially hearing and "voice" senses. This allows the character to receive and send messages to "the other side" without any special powers at all. This works like the kid from The Sixth Sense where you can't turn it off or have much control over it at all. If there's a ghost in the room, you can see it, hear it and feel it (if you add Extradimensional to the touch sense group as well).

 

For more advanced Medium powers that the character will have some control over, here are my suggestions:

 

Spirit Search:

Mind Scan, Extradimensional.

This is the classic medium ability to call out to the spirit world for a specific soul or spirit entity. If the medium successfully locates this entity, then the medium can use his or her natural ability to speak with spirits to communicate with them, or may activate one of a number of methods of communication.

 

Spirit Communication:

Mind Link, extradimensional, any one spirit at a time.

Communication with spirits using the normal (dimensionally enhanced) senses is confusing and disjointed, even for an experienced medium. The spirits often come across as a bundle of emotional energy and can manifest as an assemblage of disconnected images. Spirit Communication on the other hand, is an enhanced, telepathic form of communication that removes the ambiguity when talking with spirits. Oftentimes the medium has to "open herself up to the spirits" and then she can clearly receive whatever messages the spirit wishes to convey. Many mediums don't like to cultivate such an ability, no matter how useful it can be in their line of work because opening oneself up so completely leaves one vulnerable to possession. Some mediums however, work on such a principle (the character of Lafayette from the HBO series True Blood is one such medium)

 

 

A Voodoo Houngan uses the Spirit Communication ability specifically to open themselves up to possession by their gods and the spirits they wish to commune with. They call this being "ridden by the spirits" and they refer to themselves as the "horse" of a specific spirit/deity that favors them.

 

Possession:

One can't delve into this subject matter without a discussion on the nature of spirit possession. In game terms, I usually handle possession as a spiritual-based Transform that's based on Ego. It actually shouldn't be easy for spirits to possess people without some kind of hook or opening. Most normal spirits (those of the deceased and perhaps those of nature or of the elements [faeries and elementals]) shouldn't be able to possess individuals without an opening like an open Mind Link. More powerful spirit entities, like demons or old-ones, usually require a psychological doorway, such as a psychological disorder of some kind, to allow them entry. (for example a Succubus could only possess an individual with Psychological Complication of "Promiscuous" or "Sexually Deviant") in which case then the Transform attacks ECV and is defended against via Mental Defense. Spirit entities can hang around a long time and do this over a long period to better effect the possession. The more points rolled on the Transformation dice, the more difficult it will be to exorcise the spirit.

The nature of this Transform basically bonds the spirit entity to the body/mind of the possessed. This allows the spirit to affect Mind Control, Mental Illusions and even Ego Attacks on the victim. (and these do not require an attack roll, they merely require effect dice rolled, since the entity is already "inside") but utilizing these abilities can be exhausting to the spirit, so it usually allows the victim to maintain control, only seizing control of the victims mind and body when the spirit needs to.

Exorcising a possessing entity can be handled in several ways.

1st the victim themselves can force the entity out through sheer mental/spiritual prowess. This requires a PRE attack on the part of the possessed individual against the possessing entity. It requires an EGO+30 result on the PRE attack to eject the spirit in this manner. Not an easy task to accomplish. In fact, some powerful spiritual entities possess "Presence Defense" to make such an event essentially impossible.

 

The next method is through the assistance of another spirit entity that has the ability to eject spirits from possessed vessels. These are oftentimes known as "Light Beings" or "Angels". In the field of Spirit Science, they are known as higher dimensional beings of light and are oftentimes considered an individual (or group of individuals) Guardian Spirits. (such as a guardian angel or a tribal Totem). These beings can either eject the possessing entity through sheer force (dispel the Transform) or aid the possessed individual in ejecting the spirit through mental effort (by both bolstering the PRE of the victim and suppressing the Ego and PRE defense of the possessing entity). Possessed individuals who "call upon a higher power" to help eject a possessing entity may receive similar help if they truly believe in the Powers they are imploring for assistance from.

 

The third and most commonly known method is via an Exorcism ritual. This is performed by a clergyman, medium or mage with the proper knowledge (prayers, spells, methodology, whatever) and is normally effected by a Dispel vs the Transform that forms the basis of the Possession power. Some powerful entities with very powerful (high active point) Transforms may require multiple Exorcists to perform a successful exorcism. Multiple exorcists can combine their Dispel dice to effect the exorcism through a successful use of the Teamwork skill.

[Lucius]

 

 

Contact: The Departed

Contact has useful skills/resources, Organization contact (the afterlife may or may not be "organized," but is more than one person in any case.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Contact: Palindromedary

[Greywind]

One drawback...

 

[NuSoardGraphite]

Contact: The DepartedContact has useful skills/resources, Organization contact (the afterlife may or may not be "organized," but is more than one person in any case.)Lucius AlexanderContact: Palindromedary

Contact also works great for a specific spirit guide (or collection of guides if bought as an organization) that the medium has fairly regular access to.

[Sean Waters]

One thing you always need to be wary of with 'mere' information gathering powers is how it will affect the plot.  I mean, it seems to me a lot more fun for the players to have to work out the sequence of moves in a puzzle room than for them to summon the spirits of all the dead bodies in there to ask where they went wrong.

 

I think that you need to ask the player what they want to be able to do with the spell.  I appreciate that the summon option might not seem to fit particularly well, but, reason from effect - you are not actually summoning a ghost, you are summoning information.  If you define the spell as being able to ask one question, then simply summon a spirit with the answer.  All you are after is that one bit of information, so all spirits will have the same character template: some EGO and INT and PRE and a specific knowledge skill.  It might LOOK like Indramar, the Dread Lord of Magery from 1000 years ago, but all it actually is is a bit of free-floating information.

 

This approach also means that the character does not get to enter into unexpected conversations: they have one question.  They want another bit of information, the need to cast the spell again.  Bear in mind the DnD Speak with Dead type spells are things that you have to learn and burn (although it might be a ritual in the latest edition, which will, at least, be time consuming and costly).

 

If you think of it as summoning a fragment of a spirit, rather than, necessarily, the whole thing, that could work, but it all depends on what you are after.  I like the retrocognition idea too, but I would require a corpse, and specify that the spell only allows retrieval of information from immediately before and immediately after the time of death.

 

One point worth making though is that the dead do not necessarily know any more than the living.  If you summoned the shade of a murder victim, they did not necessarily know who killed them - so their shade won't either.

 

I'm awfully protective of my scenarios being sidestepped by informational abilities.  At the same time, they are part of the whole genre thing, so you have to find a way to make them work that still keeps it fun for everyone.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Ghosts shouldn't be all-knowing. If the ghosts are fettered to the location because of a tragedy or unfinished task, that's all they'll be able to concentrate on. They won't be able to tell you who was there. They won't be able to tell you where an object is stashed. They won't be able to tell you what happened last week, unless those thing coincide directly with the reason why is ghost is stuck there. And even then, it should be cryptic and vague as all hell.

 

Spirit guides and such don't give out straight answers. They will treat you like Yoda treated Luke. They will answer a question with a question. They will say what you need to hear to get you on the right path, but they won't give you the answers directly, because they understand that you grow best when you figure things out on your own and make your own way in the world. That's their #1 goal...your personal spiritual growth, not giving you easy answers.

[Sean Waters]

...

 

Spirit guides and such don't give out straight answers. They will treat you like Yoda treated Luke. They will answer a question with a question. They will say what you need to hear to get you on the right path, but they won't give you the answers directly, because they understand that you grow best when you figure things out on your own and make your own way in the world. That's their #1 goal...your personal spiritual growth, not giving you easy answers.

 

Some of the funniest moments in role playing history come from the GM saying one thing, and the player hearing something completely different.

 

When this happens, treasure the moment

[Lucius]

Conversation Skill, Only with Dead People.

 

 

Then of course the problem is getting them to answer

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Speak with Palindromedary

[mhd]

Well, it worked for Hamlet.

 

On second thought...

[Greywind]

Ivan wasn't exactly amused when Hellboy dug him up.

[Lucius]

Well, it worked for Hamlet.

 

On second thought...

 

Somehow, Hamlet's Father knew how he died even though he was asleep at the time.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if ghosts can lie, for that matter. Or be in error.

[Christopher]

One thing you always need to be wary of with 'mere' information gathering powers is how it will affect the plot.  I mean, it seems to me a lot more fun for the players to have to work out the sequence of moves in a puzzle room than for them to summon the spirits of all the dead bodies in there to ask where they went wrong.

 

[...]

 

I'm awfully protective of my scenarios being sidestepped by informational abilities.  At the same time, they are part of the whole genre thing, so you have to find a way to make them work that still keeps it fun for everyone.

This is a very big danger with all Information Gatherign abilities. Breaking the plot. I think somewhere D&D had a few pages about thier handfull of inforamtion gathering spells (especially the prediction stuff).

 

Also consider another question: Is it really a Power? Or is a plot device? The difference can often be found with two questions:

1. Does having this Power brings the character any advantages? Stuff like easier riddle solving, getting extra loot, more XP, a easier way to do stuff. If not, it should not cost anything.

2. Is the power Required for the Plot or do you have to force yourself to include their effect in the game? Chances are it should not cost anything. You don't require PC to buy the ability to "Turn a Key in the Lock", when unlocking the door is needed to progress in the story. Same thing applies for talking to dead people.

 

You could easily say "every cleric in my world can speak with ghosts, for free. Ghost are just NPC" and at the same time say "but ghosts instantly go into afterlife (where they are unreachable), unless they have something to bind them to the mortal world." Maybe add a special rule "Clerics, Magicians and generally important guys might appear again from the afterlife if there is dire need for a warning"

 

 

I appreciate that the summon option might not seem to fit particularly well, but, reason from effect - you are not actually summoning a ghost, you are summoning information. If you define the spell as being able to ask one question, then simply summon a spirit with the answer. All you are after is that one bit of information, so all spirits will have the same character template: some EGO and INT and PRE and a specific knowledge skill. It might LOOK like Indramar, the Dread Lord of Magery from 1000 years ago, but all it actually is is a bit of free-floating information.

This is a interesting take on the problem.

Indeed you are not having the Game Effect of "Summoning a Ghost". You have the Game Effect of "Aquiring Inforamtion", with the Special Effect of "summoning a ghost to ask questions".

Seperating Game and Special effect is the first hurdle you always have to take, before even thinking about writing a power up.

 

Also always bear one little rule in mind: "What work in Fiction does not nessesarily work in a RPG."

[Vondy]

I've always done it as a group spirit contact, which is admittedly and appropriately a x6 multiplier on the base cost.

 

Contact "The Dead," Group, Spirit  X-

[Greywind]

What if it was the Grateful Dead?

[IndianaJoe3]

What if it was the Grateful Dead?

 

Jerry's still with us, man.

[bigdamnhero]

Sorry to post and disappear - thanks for the suggestions all.

 

I like the idea of making it a Contact. I don't think it matches this player's concept tho: he doesn't have a roster of specific souls he calls for information, but rather can attempt to reach any soul (with various preconditions - below).

 

Making it a KS gets points for simplicity, and if it was only going to be used rarely I might go that way. But for something with potential plot implications, I think it might be more subjective than I'm comfortable with.

 

One thing you always need to be wary of with 'mere' information gathering powers is how it will affect the plot...I'm awfully protective of my scenarios being sidestepped by informational abilities.

Amen. I'm always leary of anything like this. Honestly the only reason I'm even considering it is I trust the player to use it to enhance the story, not short cut it.

 

you are not actually summoning a ghost, you are summoning information.  If you define the spell as being able to ask one question, then simply summon a spirit with the answer.  All you are after is that one bit of information, so all spirits will have the same character template: some EGO and INT and PRE and a specific knowledge skill.  It might LOOK like Indramar, the Dread Lord of Magery from 1000 years ago, but all it actually is is a bit of free-floating information.

Summoning information = exactly! And I think limiting it to a set number of questions is a good idea. (I'd go with 3, but I'm a traditionalist.)

 

I'm less crazy about all spirits having the same stats, tho. Getting some piece of information that was known only to Indramar should be harder than getting something known to every shield monkey in his horde. And while the EGO/INT/PRE of Dead Guy X isn't a perfect reflection of that, it makes a decent proxy.

 

If the ghosts are fettered to the location because of a tragedy or unfinished task, that's all they'll be able to concentrate on.

...
Spirit guides and such don't give out straight answers...That's their #1 goal...your personal spiritual growth, not giving you easy answers.

Good ideas, tho very campaign-dependant. For example, talking to ghosts tied to this plane isn't the same as summoning a dead soul from hell (or heaven). And if spirit guides never actually give you useful information, then should you have to pay points for them?

[Sean Waters]

...

 

I'm less crazy about all spirits having the same stats, tho. Getting some piece of information that was known only to Indramar should be harder than getting something known to every shield monkey in his horde. And while the EGO/INT/PRE of Dead Guy X isn't a perfect reflection of that, it makes a decent proxy.

 

...

 

 

One way to accomplish this is literally to require a piece of Indramar to summon the information that it contains.  A bit of Indramar is going to be far harder to find than a bit of one of his shield monkeys.  If you use the old trope of a focus being used up in a spell then they will need to ration their questions carefully.  You could require other things too, perhaps the spell will only work if cast in a particular area (related to the information you are after) so that actually getting to where you can retrieve the information is a task in itself.

 

You might want to know where Indramar hid his Dagger of Discernment, and you will need to cast that in his map room (or the ruins thereof), whereas if you want to know how he died then you need to cast it somewhere near where he died - and finding his place of death might be a real trick.

 

Finally one jolly wheeze with informational abilities is adding 'side effects' to the spell - basically if the side effects bite then the information you get might be wrong, misleading or subtly tainted in some way.  For example Indramar might tell you that to fine whatever you are after you need to perform a ritual in a particular place - and doing so acts as a resurrection spell for him...

[Kraven Kor]

Contact: The Departed

Contact has useful skills/resources, Organization contact (the afterlife may or may not be "organized," but is more than one person in any case.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Contact: Palindromedary

 

Pretty much my solution if you want "Speak with Dead" just for gathering info.

[Sean Waters]

The problem with contacts - unless you can stick them in a VPP or otherwise change them at will, which require GM permission - is that you have to spend points on them, and you don't get the points back.

 

Did make me think though: what if you gain information through an intermediary, a spirit guide?  The spirit guide is always the same but has the ability to go and find a dead soul and ask questions on your behalf, rather than having the information itself.  You don' t really control or summon the dead spirit, you ask a 'friend' to make enquiries.  

 

That way you can reliably ask questions but the spirit guide might not be able to get the information you want - it seems a good way for the GM to reasonably control information flow whilst still allowing the player to take good advantage of the ability.  This does seem like a classic summon: the more points you put in social interaction skills or even powers for your spirit guide, the more information - and the more reliable information - the spirit guide can gather on your behalf.