The Champions Age

[Christopher R Taylor]

What with the popularity of superhero movies and TV these days, it seems like now is a golden time for Superhero roleplaying.  I know more than a few people who don't care for fantasy that became fascinated with the idea of playing a superhero.  Most people now I think have created a superhero in their head, who they would be if they were in The Avengers or what have you.  Particularly female gamers seem to be fascinated with the idea, where they get a bad feeling about, say, fantasy.

 

And that means this is a prime opportunity to get people into playing role playing games, through Champions.  Now there are competitors out there, but there were back when Champions was at its height too.  And the other games have their charm, but none of them are as good as the gold standard original.  And Champions doesn't have the rep that D&D has in terms of gaming stereotypes.

 

The thing we have to do as players and GMs is reach out, and push the game.  I remember well when I first talked to people about Champions it wasn't "its hard to make a character" or "the rules are kind of intimidating but its fun" but instead "dude!  Superheros!"  Sometimes I think we're our own worst enemies when it comes to Hero.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

It seems to me that there's a big market out there of people who have not played any RPGs, at least not the real thing with dice and paper.  Those people could be attracted by Champions where playing an elf might seem lame or remind them too much of the guys in high school that everyone laughed at.  Starting out new players with the idea of being a superhero could be pretty effective these days.

[Echo3Niner]

I would agree in general.  I also remember that when I first played Champions 15-20 years ago, I didn't think it was "harder" to understand the rules than any other game.  Conversely, at the time, Marvel was the only other SH RPG I was aware of, and as fun as it was to play in the official Marvel universe, the rules were not really granular enough to satisfy our RPG group back then.

 

As I recently got back into the SH RPG vain, I instantly went back to Champions.  I looked up some reviews, and found it interesting the emphasis put on the "difficulty to understand and build a good character".  I also found that many reviews talked about having to play several times before they learned how to "really make powers" (meaning with all the appropriate adds/limitations), to make a "really powerful" hero.

 

I find it interesting so much emphasis is put on character creation in Champions.  Most games I usually play (Shadowrun, Earthdawn, D&D (back in the day; Forgotten Realms 2nd ed.), Star Wars (WEG), Old White Wolf, even GURPS and In Nomine), when you read a review of them, most of it is focused on the setting and content, not on character creation.

 

This is something that I think Champions needs to overcome to make a bigger splash.

[wcw43921]

Perhaps HERO could attempt to make people more aware of Champions.  I remember in the 80s the comic book and magazine ads for Dungeons & Dragons; they didn't just advertise in gaming publications, they were actively attempting to court the mainstream.  Heck, they even had TV commercials--and they weren't entirely alone, either; I remember hearing a radio commercial for Traveller on a local college radio station.

 

I don't know what advertising HERO has done in the past, or what kind of advertising budget they have--the answer to that last one may be none at all.  But I think HERO should make more of an attempt to popularize Champions outside of the usual audience.  Comic books are a must, as are science fiction and fantasy magazines.  Perhaps they could coem up with some "radio" commercials for SF/fantasy-themed podcasts like The Nerdist or Wil Wheaton's show.  TV commercials may be out of the question, but if you could buy some airtime on an episode of Agents Of SHIELD or The Flash, it might just well be worth it.

 

Hope that helps.

[bubba smith]

wcw43921 has a point about advertising

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a poster ad for comic and game shops and a radio spot is more likely for the Hero Games budget - and a kickstarter for the funding even.  But youtube ads and how to play vids would be a big help.  Something fun that you can send around to people on Youtube could go a long ways, just a short bit introducing the game.  Getting podcast notice is a good move too, there are more than a few comic and related podcasts out there.

[bluesguy]

buy some airtime on an episode of Agents Of SHIELD

 

 

A 30 second ad on AoS is $169,730 as per Adweek article... I 100% sure that would be years of advertising budget for Hero.  And that doesn't even include actually making the ad itself.  Which to do it right is going to cost a bunch of $s as well

[Christopher R Taylor]

It would be great but yeah, that's way out of the budget.  I'm not sure Hero Games even has an advertising budget.  We need a billionaire Hero Games fan to help out

[Lord Liaden]

It seems to me that there's a big market out there of people who have not played any RPGs, at least not the real thing with dice and paper.  Those people could be attracted by Champions where playing an elf might seem lame or remind them too much of the guys in high school that everyone laughed at.  Starting out new players with the idea of being a superhero could be pretty effective these days.

 

I wish I could be as optimistic as you. From every report I've seen, tabletop RPGs are a constantly shrinking market, as MMORPGs draw by far the largest share of potential gamers; and supers are still only a small part of that market. Comic books themselves have been losing readership for a long time. The recent movies have probably stirred interest in the superhero genre, but they've been highly popular for years, without translating to a major push for more tabletop gaming in that genre. Heck, Champions spawned its own MMO -- arguably the best advertising possible for the parent game -- but that still didn't keep the company from downsizing.

 

Now, another thing that might help boost interest in Champions, is the recent extraordinarily successful Kickstarter funding of the Storium online storytelling game. The Champions Universe will be one of the "worlds" the game will host, which hopefully will encourage people interested in the setting to buy the tabletop books, and perhaps explore the game itself. But even just buying the setting books will be a boost for Hero Games.

 

Bottom line, though: I believe we have to get over the notion that there's a big market for Champions or HERO just waiting to be tapped by the right strategy. Many different strategies have been tried for a long time, by people with much more first-hand experience with the industry than most of us on these forums... but we still ended up here. Some tactics may help, but not likely enough to return Hero Games to its glory days.

[Echo3Niner]

I think a poster ad for comic and game shops and a radio spot is more likely for the Hero Games budget - and a kickstarter for the funding even.  But youtube ads and how to play vids would be a big help.  Something fun that you can send around to people on Youtube could go a long ways, just a short bit introducing the game.  Getting podcast notice is a good move too, there are more than a few comic and related podcasts out there.

 

No doubt about it, a series of well made, but amateur (i.e. free) YouTube videos cost nothing, and could be a huge help...  Think of some of the videos done by video game designers, where they show a monitor behind them, with cool stuff going on (e.g. Hero Creator), as they talk through some basics of the game.

 

Drawing analogies to the new crop of Super Hero movies would go a long way as well - e.g. showing how you could play through the Avenger's Age of Ultron in Champions, could be huge (for hit's and follows).

 

If you could get with Champions Online, and do some cross promotion; showing how the characters from the MMO can be transitioned to paper and played, that might help too, for both properties.

 

Finally, a great cinematic (whenever it could be afforded) to go on YouTube, could be huge.  The cinematic Deceived was a HUGE lead in for SWTOR and helped sell that game.

 

I think social media is a huge untapped resource for P&P-RPG's...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, a series of youtube vids (amateur stuff) showing how to build and play popular stuff, especially Champions based superhero stuff could be pretty effective.  Batman, Catwoman, Bane, etc; here's a campaign that is Captain America's first film, here's what Thor would be like, etc.

[Balabanto]

Part of the problem is that people refuse to keep it simple. They want the most complex stuff right away. This, in turn, paralyzes people with too many options and prevents them from building simple, effective characters.

 

The problem is that the stuff that you guys are talking about is the stuff that prevents playing the game. If I'm playing Champions, I don't WANT to create Captain America, or even build him, because then Marvel will sue me. The problem is that too many people want to do exactly that, but Marvel and DC are huge companies that license all of their properties. This leads to dozens of people building their own versions online for free.

 

Since no one can make any money off this, no one goes beyond the basic rulebook.

 

What we need are superhero worlds that engage the reader with the characters and encourage people to build characters in those worlds. We need regular adventures and supplements linked to those worlds, or that can be run in multiple worlds without those sorts of legal problems. And we need customers who are willing to pay for it.

 

This is what I do. Check out my stuff. If we work to create our own things and publish them, the game will flourish and grow. If we keep copying free versions of Superman off the internet, the game will die, because no one bothered to create anything on their own.

[Lawnmower Boy]

The success of comic book movies strongly underlines Chris Taylor's point. The superhero is emerging as the central figure of the American mythos, and pretty darn important in the rest of the world, too. Elements like the secret identity, the iconic costume (even if toned down for different media), the Manichaean struggle, the origin story. This stuff is pretty key to the way we live now. (Suck it, Joseph Campbell. Suck it.) 

 

Now, that said, it can be pretty hard to monetise something like this. People are raiding dungeons to level up their magic users all round the country right now, but not a penny gets back to Hasbro because the old Dungeons & Dragons crew couldn't find a way to take hold of the craze they created. The classic way of monetising superheroes is with four-colour comics, and the decline of that medium is an established fact at this point. Now, I think demography plays a larger role, and cultural shifts a smaller one, than is often argued. But that doesn't mean that we can change demography. (Well, we can and we should, but we aren't going to start with comics.) 

 

At the moment, looking at gaming, the obvious winner is Heroclix, and the explanation is pretty clear. Superheroes fight, and it is pretty darn hard to fight superheroes without some way of simulating them. Champions is a much better simulation of superheroes than Heroclix, and more inclusive of diverse agonistic elements, too. Correct me if I'm wrong, Clixers, but you can't drop points on Batman's deductive skills in Heroclix, or use them if you could.

 

I do not, by the way, buy for a second the argument that Champions is too complicated. If you want to play it, there's a billion templates, design aids, and outright character grabs you can use, instead of mastering character design right off. And as difficult as certain rules are, no-one says that you have to understand them to play them. [insert Hilarious joke about unarmed combat and attack of opportunity rules in D&D here.] You won't play Champions right or well if you just jump in knowing what you know and doing it as you please, but you'll get there in the end. The problem rather is that the commitment in time and effort required to enjoy any tabletop RPG is huge, and, by and large, superhero RPGs take more effort to overcome embarrassment. Plus the whole "attention seeking personality disorder" thing comes into play in tabletop RPGing (and cosplaying, and internet commenting, and busking outside the liquor store for spare change, and any number of other activities that eventually lead us to swear off on the whole "being around humans" thing) .

 

The essence, the trick of capitalising on superheroes, either for money or for all those higher aims of moral education that hack writers like to cherish is very simple: be entertaining. That's it. Allen Thomas, for example, used to be very good at that. So is Ken HIte; so all your favourite RPG writer/designers. Do what they do. Which is to say, tell affecting stories.  

 

As for finding the perfect medium to entertain with superhero stories that doesn't involve having a couple billion in the bank to gradually grow a cinematic universe, your guess is as good as mine. It looks like the MMORPG ain't it, which is too bad given the high hopes we had for CO. On the other hand, the MMORPG genre hasn't taken off like we expected, anyway, so it's hard to blame the studio, even though I totally do. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

The MMORPG has a pretty poor free play structure, they really should have followed City of Heroes in their system - very effective.  But it lacks a certain feel, and I think most of that is the start; you begin not fighting muggers and saving people from criminals, but fighting a nondescript group of bug aliens nobody has heard of or cares about.  And that's the entry; you have to pull people in right from the start.

 

In any case, nobody is going to sue the local gaming group for playing Captain America.  In fact, Disney and Warner Brothers probably like that idea.  I agree, a fresh new world you design is idea (and that's what I do) but for pulling in new players and lookie loos, having Captain America and Batman on the same team with Cyclops is a pretty big draw.  Once they get a feel, they'll almost certainly want to make their own characters.

 

And if that character happens to be a Wolverine clone, well hey, long as everybody is having fun, right?

 

But I agree the main frustration is everyone wants to start out with 50 years of experience Batman, not starting Batman.

[Echo3Niner]

The MMORPG has...

 

[i'll apologize up front for this pet-peeve rant you may have to endure, if you choose to keep reading...  Soapbox mode engaged.]

 

So, here is something I've noticed about the MMO Super Hero games; THEY ARE NOT RPG's...  VERY often I hear the term MMORPG used with DCUO, CO, etc.  Except, THEY'RE not!

 

In an RPG, I should get options when speaking to an NPC, and my choice should have some impact on my adventure.  Think the original Dragon Age: Origins, or for an MMO, SWTOR (no mistake it's the same company).  SWTOR is about the only MMORPG I've found online, where the story is actually written, so you can go against type, and still play the story through.  You can play a light-side Sith Warrior, and this will actually fundamentally change your story, and was taken into account in the story line, written into the game.  THAT's an RPG.

 

Every Super Hero MMO I've seen, read about or played, is a MMO Action Game.  About the only component that is "RPG-like" is character points spent and appearance -  but there is NO ROLE PLAYING in the game; simply questing or PvP (which has no choices).

 

I only recently started playing DCUO, and although it's fun as a mind-numb button masher, it is in NO WAY an RPG.  I found I couldn't play any of the villain storylines, cause there is no way to play a "good" villain.  (OK, so I hear you now - Why would you want to play a good villain?  They are mutually exclusive.  I disagree; what about the street rat with the heart of gold, who get's caught up in Joker's gang, and helps out, but also works contrary to his purpose?  As one of a gazzillian examples I have.  AND BESIDES, if it was an RPG, I should be able to!)

 

[soapbox mode disengaged - we now return you to your normal programming.]

[Greywind]

The role-playing occurs when you find a group of like-minded people and they talk in character, act in character, etc.

[Balabanto]

The MMORPG has a pretty poor free play structure, they really should have followed City of Heroes in their system - very effective.  But it lacks a certain feel, and I think most of that is the start; you begin not fighting muggers and saving people from criminals, but fighting a nondescript group of bug aliens nobody has heard of or cares about.  And that's the entry; you have to pull people in right from the start.

 

In any case, nobody is going to sue the local gaming group for playing Captain America.  In fact, Disney and Warner Brothers probably like that idea.  I agree, a fresh new world you design is idea (and that's what I do) but for pulling in new players and lookie loos, having Captain America and Batman on the same team with Cyclops is a pretty big draw.  Once they get a feel, they'll almost certainly want to make their own characters.

 

And if that character happens to be a Wolverine clone, well hey, long as everybody is having fun, right?

 

But I agree the main frustration is everyone wants to start out with 50 years of experience Batman, not starting Batman

 

You're not seeing the core concept that I'm arguing for, I think. The problem is you want boots on the ground with no product. Expanding the game requires an attractive product with multiple expansions so that the company can make money! I've said this before and I'll say it again elsewhere. You can't just sell the core rulebook. You have to sell the core rulebook, introductory adventures, and the supplemental material that goes along with it. You cannot do this if your universe is Marvel or DC, because these companies are heavily licensed and will sue.

 

The result of this, in turn, is that people put up multiple versions of these characters on the internet for free. So now, there are not enough people paying for the Hero products to warrant the level of advertising that people here are suggesting. The reality is that in order to get boots on the ground, you need to attract the angry people who think Marvel and DC have screwed up, and create good third alternatives that don't involve any of those characters. And there are a lot of them.

 

While everyone needs a core rulebook, you need to make your fluff attractive enough that people buy it for it's own sake. The Rifts rules are terrible, but their supplements sell like hotcakes because the world is so interesting. We aren't there. We need to find a way to get there. The Rifts fluff is so interesting that it outsells every single other line Palladium has by a factor of ten, with the singular exception of their Robotech wargame kickstarter.

 

It's not just about boots on the ground. It's about product on the shelves.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I usually use the term "MMOG" not MMORPG" for those reasons: its not really a role playing game.  Just because you can role play in them doesn't make it so any more than role playing your family in the little care in The Game of Life.

 

Which is another hook: people who play these games can be told about what real roleplaying is like.

[wcw43921]

A 30 second ad on AoS is $169,730 as per Adweek article... I 100% sure that would be years of advertising budget for Hero.  And that doesn't even include actually making the ad itself.  Which to do it right is going to cost a bunch of $s as well

 

Okay, that comes out to $5658 per second, give or take a penny.  We could get a bunch of players together, have them hold up a poster and a bunch of rulebooks and scream "PLAY IT!!!"  at the camera.

 

Yeah--that'll work.  We can do this.  All we need now is for someone to chip in a kidney--

[Greywind]

You're not seeing the core concept that I'm arguing for, I think. The problem is you want boots on the ground with no product. Expanding the game requires an attractive product with multiple expansions so that the company can make money! I've said this before and I'll say it again elsewhere. You can't just sell the core rulebook. You have to sell the core rulebook, introductory adventures, and the supplemental material that goes along with it. You cannot do this if your universe is Marvel or DC, because these companies are heavily licensed and will sue.

 

The result of this, in turn, is that people put up multiple versions of these characters on the internet for free. So now, there are not enough people paying for the Hero products to warrant the level of advertising that people here are suggesting. The reality is that in order to get boots on the ground, you need to attract the angry people who think Marvel and DC have screwed up, and create good third alternatives that don't involve any of those characters. And there are a lot of them.

 

While everyone needs a core rulebook, you need to make your fluff attractive enough that people buy it for it's own sake. The Rifts rules are terrible, but their supplements sell like hotcakes because the world is so interesting. We aren't there. We need to find a way to get there. The Rifts fluff is so interesting that it outsells every single other line Palladium has by a factor of ten, with the singular exception of their Robotech wargame kickstarter.

 

It's not just about boots on the ground. It's about product on the shelves.

 

Rifts generally sucks because most of their books seems to be reprinting parts, in whole, of other books in the line. How many times do I need the rules for X that they appear in 20 different books?

[Christopher R Taylor]

What I'm describing is having people who love to play Champions and have the rules going out and finding players, not anything about publication or advertising.

 

I like the idea of ads, but the company can't afford to do it, but youtube vids on how to play and podcasts of campaigns would go well with just creativity.  

That said, I agree that more support material needs to be put out for various Hero settings, and I'm doing my best to put out fantasy hero stuff.  And I want to put out more Champions stuff, including a campaign setting or two with characters, adventures, and materials.  Its definitely true that we need more quality source material being produced

[Greywind]

"When I was your age, I built my own world. Nowadays, you young'uns want everything handed to ya."

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I prefer my own world but... in terms of sales, having pre-made stuff is a big advantage, and giving people a campaign they can just drop people into and play quick.  That was the huge advantage of AD&D, all you needed was a few minutes to throw together a character, then there was like 500 modules to choose from.