WilyQuixote Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Hey guys and gals, While at work today I came across the November issue of National Geographic magazine for 2003. I like this magazine alot so I picked it up and read through it. Inside I discovered a very neat article on the latest and greatest surveillance technology being used by the American goverment to increase homeland security. In this article were all kinds of interesting things like London is thee most surveilled city in the world. They have cameras and all kinds of other things in use there to protect their citizens and keep an eye on people that need it. The article mentioned new X-Ray machines being installed in airports that show everything...including our love-handles:eek: . That wasn't even the half of it though, there was a lot more I'm not even mentioning. You can check it out here. http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0311/feature1/index.html As I was reading this and inevitably breaking these gizmos down into HERO statistics (I know I'm not the only one who does this) I wondered how all this would affect the CU. I mean if MC is beyond the cutting edge of most technology on the planet by a decade or more thanks to it's super human population then what kinda surveillance gizmos do they use? Not only that but with MC being as high-tech as it is now surely MC would be the most surveilled city in the world instead of London. How would our mighty heroes with loved ones and private lives to protect keep their secret identities secret? If you read that NG article I think you'll agree that the goverment doesn't even need the Super-human registration act. They probably already know who you are and where you live and likely how you got your powers even if you don't;). I can picture villainous agencies with access to high technology like Viper and Argent blackmailing heroes into leaving them alone or doing their dirty work after finding out who they really are. Nowadays its even easier to do something like that. Of course why would these villains stop there? If they really wanted to mess with the heroes (or their Gm is particulary vindictive) they could change the heroes' secret ID tax records. "Captain Spandex-Man...You are under arrest for tax evasion as one Joe Average. You have the right to an attorney...". I can picture the Viper nest leader thinking to himself "that out to keep those pesky heroes out of our way for awhile, launch the mission." the possibilities are endless here and while they are not very comic-book-esques they are entirely possible. I guess it would all depend on how dark your campaigns run. How would a Hero deal with this? I wouldn't have this problem with my current hero because he doesn't wear a mask or hide his face in any way. But what about the other heroes out there? I don't know, I thought this was an interesting topic and I am curious as to what my fellow gamers out there think about it and how they would deal with it as a player or GM or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Well, for one thing, somewhere in Millennium City is a comment on how the city government declined to use the most intrusive and privacy invading of tech which apparently made the Vchips in the cars look down right friendly by comparison. The rest... well, IMO there are some differences between comic book universes and the real deal. If it kills a major aspect of the genre, it's to be ignored-unless that's how the GM wants the campaign to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilyQuixote Posted November 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Well, for one thing, somewhere in Millennium City is a comment on how the city government declined to use the most intrusive and privacy invading of tech which apparently made the Vchips in the cars look down right friendly by comparison. I wasn't aware of that. Shrike has the book but I never read it cover to cover...obviously I missed that. Your right though it definately isn't in keeping with the genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 These technologies are rife with problems and often achieve inaccurate results. In addition - the sfx of many superpowers might throw it off, and I'm sure batman's mask has some sort of jamming microcircuitry in it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 The technology possible to superheroes (and villains) routinely exceeds anything available in the real world. If your heroes include any gadgeteer types, you can be sure that they'll have come up with something that can counter these surveillance devices for when they need privacy. If you need to stat it out, Limited Invisibility, Darkness and Images can handle just about anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 As scarey and wrong as the intent of all ther surveilance technology is, a lot of the claimed capability is really more sales hype than reality. Facial recognition systems, for example, are still really bad, no matter what the companies making them claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilyQuixote Posted November 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 D-Man These technologies are rife with problems and often achieve inaccurate results. Yeah this was brought up in the article but it also showed some amazing accurate results as well. I know these were probably under ideal circumstances but still. If you need to stat it out, Limited Invisibility, Darkness and Images can handle just about anything. I wasn't really concerned about statting it out. Those are good ways to counter it though. One of the beauties of the HERO system is that there is almost always a way to defeat the ultimate whatever. Facial recognition systems, for example, are still really bad, no matter what the companies making them claim. The magazine actually performed a test on this very thing using the best technology they had access too and a "bonafide" CIA master of disguise. The master of disguise fooled the computer almost everytime. The only time the computer got a score of 100% was when the same photo given to the computer as a baseline was one of its choices for a possible identity . Otherwise the best the computer could get was like a 61% I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupus Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Sheesh. Not just privacy implications - I wanna know what the health implications of routine body-scanning X-rays are! I think those problems should keep some scanners out of regular use. It could also be used as a reason why these machines aren't deployed in MC - something to do with routine exposure to the fields potentially causing health complications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Its one of those genre things WilyQ. This sort of tech is great if you are going for a cyber-punk, brave new world, or days of futures past type setting, but is conveniently overlooked in more mainstream comic-booky genres. This type of tech would engender paranoia (and rightfully so), distrust, and put a focus on elaborate attempts to evade detection. If you want that in your game, then all good. If on the otherhand you prefer more open-trust type scenarios, with heroic heroes and villainous villains, dont include it. Etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Another problem with this surveillance stuff is that it is just data - you need someone to go through it/analyze it. You may have three weeks worth of footage of every street in the city from ten different angles each, but unless you know when/where to look, it will take you longer to look at it then it took to happen. Useful for reconstructing events ("OK, the Ultimates hit MegaBank yesterday at noon; pull up the tapes in that area starting at 11:30 and see what happened.") but not really as surveillance. The "real" US govt has a huge backlog of signal intelligence that has yet to be listened to, much less analyzed, due to a lack of translators, especially Arabic at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Oh, one other thing to consider is that villains and heroes can also have a natural 'Cyberpathy" as a power. If even ONE villain does, the govt is suddenly very vulnerable to it's own privacy violating equipment. In fact, I can see Cybermind taking great enjoyment of downloading pictures of prominent businessmen, politicans, etc to the net in various situations (or states of dress) they might not want revealed. If the CU govt becomes aware their technology can be made to serve another, it maybe more reluctant to plant it everywhere. *EG* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Speaking for myself? I've always considered Secret ID to be one of the stupidest genre conventions of superhero fiction. I wouldn't be at all sad to see it go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Originally posted by TheEmerged Speaking for myself? I've always considered Secret ID to be one of the stupidest genre conventions of superhero fiction. I wouldn't be at all sad to see it go I would. It takes a lot from the mythos; the duality of man and superman, the mundane and the miraculous. While there is more to a super hero genre than secret identies, the option of it holds a special place in it's foundation and feel. It shouldn't be ripped from it entire. But that's just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 There's Secret ID, and then there's Secret ID. Superman's "secret" is a joke. On the other hand, a guy who looks entirely different when "geared up for a fight", or who actually wears a mask, might be able to hide his identity. There are legit motivations, given who superheroes fight, to keep their real identities secret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilyQuixote Posted November 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Supreme Serpent Another problem with this surveillance stuff is that it is just data - you need someone to go through it/analyze it. You may have three weeks worth of footage of every street in the city from ten different angles each, but unless you know when/where to look, it will take you longer to look at it then it took to happen. Useful for reconstructing events ("OK, the Ultimates hit MegaBank yesterday at noon; pull up the tapes in that area starting at 11:30 and see what happened.") but not really as surveillance. The "real" US govt has a huge backlog of signal intelligence that has yet to be listened to, much less analyzed, due to a lack of translators, especially Arabic at the moment. Well this is true to a point. I think it depends on which branches/offices of the goverment we're talking about. Supposedly the N.S.A. has the world's most sophisticated/powerful data crunching computer in the world and its supposed to be extremely fast at what it does. This could still mean they have months and months of back logged material waiting to be scanned but then again it might not. Im sure at some point the intelligence has to go through human hands for final decisions on what to do about it but it probably doesn't take them "months". However this is the goverment we're talking about and they have never been accused of being efficent . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34024 You can find other, similar info as well. One highlight is that data from terrorist suspects from the 1980s has just recently been translated. A few years ago, the NSA computers crashed, and it was estimated at that time they were something like 85 days behind, just on the computer end, not counting human factors. There will be priorities, of course. Anything suspected to directly involve Osama bin Laden or Dr. Destroyer, for example, would be pretty much up to date, while just raw "possibilities" like random surveillance would be last on the list, just being pulled up if it may help with another piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Yeah, and it's not even 'inefficiency' that gets them so far behind -- it's the fact that, without exaggerating *too* much, we can say that damn near every pulse of transmitted data on the entire freaking planet is trying to fit through that one little bottleneck. They'd need about ten times their staffing in order to deal with the literal Mount Everest of raw data that they get flooded with, and not only isn't there that much money in the budget, there aren't that many qualified and security-cleared people in that field to hire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man These technologies are rife with problems and often achieve inaccurate results. In addition - the sfx of many superpowers might throw it off, and I'm sure batman's mask has some sort of jamming microcircuitry in it... I think posters in general captured the fundamentals of why secret IDs aren't compromised in the super-hero genre... but D-Man, re your first sentence, are you talking real-world or comic book world? As you know, the London thing is pretty darn accurate at reading license plates and spotting crimes (different systems, yes, I know). It isn't wholly accurate for some details, yes, but it's good enough to spot and get good details on someone changing clothing, taking off a mask. Of course most places in today's world have way less sophisticated observational capabilities than what England's built up, so the statement stands in general, but probably wouldn't if the world built up the capabilities as they have. Anyway, just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 The problem is that "the system" doesn't notice crimes being committed, clothes being changed, etc. There's a tremendous human overhead involved in monitoring all of that data for useful information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher The problem is that "the system" doesn't notice crimes being committed, clothes being changed, etc. There's a tremendous human overhead involved in monitoring all of that data for useful information. In real life, in London, they do much of their crime dispatch now based on monitoring cameras. This started prior to the whole traffic thing. People are watching those cameras constantly - instead of patrolling. That's in real life, mind you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astralfrontier Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 I'd ask my players about it, then use it as a campaign element if people were so inclined. I also imagine that being "caught on camera" is just one more factor in that activation roll that most Secret IDs are bought with. If your idea of getting into costume is to run down the alley and pull open your shirt to reveal a particular letter of the alphabet loudly emblazoned on your chest, well... the camera caught it, congratulations. If on the other hand you are accustomed to jumping down a nearby storm drain, or disappearing into a small local supermarket, or just shimmying up through the emergency hatch on an elevator, you probably don't risk detection as much. I believe that comic-book conventions can survive the "reality check" if used properly. For example, a great deal of recent anti-terrorism activity in the United States has been due to the twin-towers and Pentagon attack. But for how long do you think people have been attacking government installations and major military bases in the Champions Universe? Because this sort of thing is JUST a bit more ongoing, it is naturally not going to inspire the sort of knee-jerk response that has put people like "privacy what?" Ashcroft in the legislative driver's seat. Thus, ubiquitous cameras and other sort of privacy-destroying controls may not be an issue. The first time a major villain tried to hose the White House, everybody clamped down, the civil rights movement stepped in, there were a few high-profile court cases about the abuse of the system, and the government quietly stepped it back, and now people move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil In real life, in London, they do much of their crime dispatch now based on monitoring cameras. This started prior to the whole traffic thing. People are watching those cameras constantly - instead of patrolling. That's in real life, mind you. There are three possibilities: A) The camera coverage of public areas isn't anywhere near as complete as they claim. At any one time, most of the camera feeds aren't actually being watched. C) Thousands and thousands of people on each shift are paid to sit and stare at one camera feed each, 24 hours a day, every day of the year. There's just no way around the logistical reality of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Now, as to the issue of constant, ubiquitous surveilance in comics, at least one title has already looked at it. When Marvel did their series of comics titles set in the future, the Punisher title featured a corupt, privatized police/security force that used this kind of surveilance. The future-Punisher had a device that did something to the system so that it always recorded a digital skull over his face. (None of those titles were very good, as I recall, but that's neither here nor there for the point I bring up.) In a comic-book world of superheroes and supervillains, and of ubiquitous surveilance, it's not unreasonable to surmise that many supers, hero and villain, would come up with ways to thwart that surveilance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 I agree that these technologies aren't nearly as intrusive and sophisticated as the hype makes them out to be. In general a large city is such a mass of humanity that no surveillance system is going to be able to track a single guy, unless he's somehow electronically marked. The volume of raw data is more than any real-world analysis operation can handle. I somewhat addressed this in a Champs game I ran in the mid-90's, in which the government-affiliated PC team actually had a cutting-edge spy satellite at their disposal, in geosynchronous orbit over the city. They had centimeter-scale optical resolution, surface-penetrating multispectrum cameras; the works. It was great for tracking bad guys trying to escape through back alleys in the dark, and for marking the layout and inhabitants of a criminal's hideout (scenarios featured nicely in last season's 24); but it never helped much when they tried to find a random bad-guy-at-large. There's just too much raw data to make it very useful. What's fun, though, is to put such technology in the hands of a villain who actually can operate it with super-efficiency. That'd make the PCs work for their 15pts. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kristopher There are three possibilities: A) The camera coverage of public areas isn't anywhere near as complete as they claim. At any one time, most of the camera feeds aren't actually being watched. C) Thousands and thousands of people on each shift are paid to sit and stare at one camera feed each, 24 hours a day, every day of the year. There's just no way around the logistical reality of it. To put it into perspective, it's more complete than local police patrols. It's not claiming to be more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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