The returning newbie

[Altair]

That's pretty cool, though even more streamlined than I would like. But yeah, that's something you could show to someone, and they could play the character right then. Almost make HERO look rules-light!

 

I'm working on a couple characters, I'll post some of what I've got when I have something remotely finished  

[Lucius]

Yeah, we looked at a lot of those kinds of tweaks. Assigning skill levels in a given phase was one of the early things we looked at - the thought was that might bog down gameplay if it was happening during combat. Assignable outside of combat as an assumed limitation might make those more palatable to start. 

 

I imagine that once some degree of system master has been acquired, this gets easier, and we might want to start adding options back in.

 

 

 

.......seriously? Assigning Skill Levels is problematic, and you want a character to choose, before ever getting into a combat, if their Combat Levels are on defense or offense, and then they can't change them during combat?

 

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having Combat Skill Levels?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that there was that one guy who banned Combat Skill Levels entirely

[Steve]

Unless a character has lots of skill levels, adjusting them each phase should not be too problematic. You might consider a cap on skill levels until you feel more comfortable using them in action scenes. I think even the most math-phobic players could handle shifting around two to three levels.

 

I hope this is not coming across as sarcastic or something. I've had to lead more than one group of players into using the system successfully, so I know the first few sessions can be a bit of a learning curve.

[Altair]

Sorry, that was actually a little unclear - I was ranting about a thing in the middle of describing other things.  Actually looking at the mechanics, they're incredibly simple - bump up your roll under # by x - looking back, I'd conflated them with some of the other mechanics, like Aid, and my initial confusion with Damage classes. Posting while having these conversations led me to mix up some of my questions/concerns.

 

So, some clarification.

 

The issue with Skill levels wasn't one of complication, but of concept. As one of my friends put it, "what's keeping people from just buying proficiency in skills, and a bunch of skill levels to use as needed?" I dislike the idea pretty strongly. One of the big draws for HERO its ability to represent characters with a high degree of granularity - if the system incentivizes  not doing that with skills, then I'm less than thrilled. Maybe I misunderstand it - but outside of some edge case where it really makes sense, I'm not a fan at this time.

 

Combat Skill Levels, once I figured out what they were, are sexy as all get out. Like a martial artist dropping into different stances, or a fencer changing their profile. CSL's are one of the coolest things I've run into so far. Same for MSLs and PSLs. All very cool.

 

Generic skill levels just aren't appealing to me. It seems like an attempt to obviate the existence of the skill system, and I like the skill system. 

 

For people who like and use them, would you be so kind as to elaborate on why? If there's something awesome I'm missing, that would be good to know! 

[Altair]

I also realized that it might be useful to elaborate a bit more on the group's preferred play dynamics. I know that HERO, and Champions specifically, tends to run pretty combat-heavy. I know that some have talked elsewhere on the forums about the combat/noncombat balance, and things like that.

 

It really depends on the game, but I'd say we probably spend somewhere in the 5-25% range on combat in most games. A game with a focus on combat might get higher, and the big casual Pathfinder game is probably that in reverse, though I don't play in it.

 

SO! The skill system is much more likely to get a workout than it might in a punchier game. 

 

Context!

[Doc Democracy]

Skills are an interesting thing.  Personally I liked the early Champions idea that, for superheroes, skills were for colour and occasional utility.  They allowed access to the things that a secret identity might bring to a superhero story.

 

Steve Long had a different idea and super-skill characters became ones with lots of skills and stuff and the detail of the skills system increased exponentially.  In my games I have toned down the skills and utilise skill levels with groups of skills to cover a broad range of skills that characters might expect to know.  My games rarely require skills from characters in more than broad strokes.  It would be wrong of me to allow players to spend too many points on such things when they may be of little value.

[Hyper-Man]

re: Proficiency, Familiarity & Skill Levels

 

Typically, 1 point will buy an 8- Familiarity with a Skill.  Optionally, 2 points will buy an 11- Proficiency with some Skills*.  In both cases, No other Skills Levels including the mighty Overall Skill Level can be used to improve those rolls. Skill Levels can only be applied to full skills.

 

*There are of course some skills that are not based on a Characteristic roll and also start with an 11- roll but those are not the same as taking a Proficiency in a Skill.

[worldshaking00]

On the topic of VPPs, our table has a house by-law: unless you're really good at math on the fly, no 'open-ended' VPPs. By that I mean your powers purchasable through the VPP have to be completely written down in list form ahead of time. That way that players won't be bogging down game. We justify it similarly to a high tech gadgeteer who as lots of stuff in the works... but just doesn't have it working 'right now'. Or if you like, a wizard who's a little absent-minded. It has worked well for us. It does partially limit the player for hampering his character's VPP, but the other option is to just build the character with a MP instead (and with a lot of slot options... can chew through character sheet space really quick).

[WistfulD]

Pretty much! It's a bunch of cool options, and those are things I definitely want - but - calculating DC on the fly sounds like a pain. Our thought was to just pre-calculate the DC for a given attack, so you can just look at what you're adding, instead of trying to remember how many CPs worth of strength go into the formula. 

 

Is that kind of thing just common practice? How do other tables deal with Damage Class? Is it just not that big a deal?

Kind-of. We all prefer to make character sheets on lined paper or word documents rather than cram it onto the tiny hero character sheets, so "HKA 1D+1, 2D+1 w/ str, 3 1/2D haymaker" isn't too much to have written down. Damage classes aren't that complex, they're just kind of a in mid-step during character creation and checking for allowability that translate right back into active points when determining effect. Martial art give you +2 DC? It doesn't cost 10, but it's just like adding 10 AP* to your attack? If your STR exceeds how much you can add to a HKA, it's a issue, but once you've verified that that's not the case, it's just adding straight to the AP*. Once you've read the table on applying DCs to effects with advantages on them (adding your STR to an armor piercing weapon, for instance), it's pretty straightforward.

 

But I strongly agree with the "any having to calculate things in the middle of a fight is a problem" mentality.

 

*Excepting rounding concerns.

[Steve]

You can simplify combat options somewhat by setting up a small table with pre-calculated OCV, DCV and damage amounts. Levels can be listed right below that for any final adjustments.

[Altair]

So! I had this long, thoughtful reply all typed up. Then I accidentally hit "back," and it is gone forever.

 

Short version!

 

• Skill levels sound great for games where skills are not as big a part. Abstracting away parts of the system you don't want to focus on is an excellent choice. The skill system is probably going to be a big deal in any game around these parts, so removing that option lets it shine more, which is what we want. Options are good!
• It's like, 3 CP to buy a skill at 1. In the grand scheme of things, that's not that much, though it can certainly add up. And if that's something you want abstracted, then it should be done so.
  • In some games, a Man of Steel's power set might be abstracted to a skill called "It's a bird! It's a plane!" which you would just roll whenever using those powers. Abstraction is very cool when you want it (and on some level, it's interesting that I'm advocating against it for my own case - this is usually the other way around), but when you don't, it can take away a part of the game you enjoy. Hence, we're not terribly interested in Skill Levels
• Or VPPs, as it turns out! Multipowers seem much more in-line with what we'd want - and yes, I realize that a good VPP answers my question of how to handle very improvisational and creative use of power sets - I just feel like there are too many moving parts to make the payoff worth the time invested. This probably changes with years of experience! We don't have those yet 
• And yeah, writing out the different levels of a given attack is something I tend to do in games like Pathfinder (Attack, Power Attack, Power Attack against Challenge Target, etc.) and I think I'd be much the same here.

Cool! Thanks all!

[zslane]

The Hero System used to be quite easy to learn if:

 

1. You had experience with some other RPG first (e.g., AD&D).

2. You understood your current RPG's weaknesses/shortcomings in terms of mechanics.

3. Your reading comprehension and basic math skills could handle what was in Champions 2nd ed.

4. You had access to at least one person who knew the game well (even if only via e-mail).

 

I see people here trying to jump into HS6 cold. The odds are not in their favor. For one thing, HS6 is harder to grasp compared to, say, Champions 2nd because of the continual process of decoupling things for greater flexibility by the publisher(s). But that greater flexibility also makes the game harder to digest for newbies. For another thing, Champions was never a great fit for newbies lacking a previous RPG experience to compare the new mechanics to. I don't feel this has changed at all in 30 years. And lastly, the general reduction in the Champions/Hero player base since the 80s/90s means it is that much harder to find experienced players to learn from. These forums are a great resource, but they are no substitute for a local group who knows the game well already.

[Altair]

Yeah, there were definitely plenty of moments in discussion where we looked at each other, and then checked the forums. I seem to be filling the role of "person who answers questions" even though I don't have many answers.

 

All told, I think if you've got #4, this is not that big a deal. It's getting someone to the point where they can fill that role that's tricky. 

[bigdamnhero]

The most important thing to remember about Hero is that you are not expected/required to use all rules in all games. Pick the parts you like, ditch the parts that seem too complicated, at least for starters, and go from there. I've seen some incredibly fast-paced rules-lite games run in Hero, as long as you and your players are in agreement.

 

You can simplify combat options somewhat by setting up a small table with pre-calculated OCV, DCV and damage amounts. Levels can be listed right below that for any final adjustments.

I started adding this to character sheets when running convention games, but it was so useful we now use it for our home games as well. Remember that "OCV+11" is a fixed number and can be added ahead of time, along with any "always on" modifiers for that particular attack/maneuver, so that saves some mathing at the table. Same for Combat Skill Levels - list how many CSLs the character has with each attack. So basically something like:

 

Attacks           To Hit    Skill     DCV     Damage     END   Notes

Basic Attack     19-       +0          7           3d6           1      

Cross                19-       +1         9            5d6          1  

Nerve Strike      18-       +1         8       2d6 NND      1  

Disarm              18-       +1         8          [5d6]          1        25 STR to Disarm

Razor Disk        19-       +3         7        4d6+1 K     [8]       4d6K if Thrown

Arc Disk            19-       +3         7         10d6          [4]       Indirect

 

[edit: hopefully fixed the formatting so this is readable]

 

VPPs: definitely require players to pre-create slots before the game, especially with new players. Basically they can still have as many slots as they want (concept permitting), and can still change slots during combat (build permitting), they just can't take game time to develop new slots. Especially if you have Hero Designer to do the heavy lifting for you, that takes a lot of the complexity out of VPPs.

 

For added flexibility, you can also use the Variable Effect/Advantages/Limitations modifiers, but beware that can put you back to having to math at the table. Allowing liberal use of the Power Skill is probably a simpler way to go.

Edited May 10, 2015 by bigdamnhero

[bigdamnhero]

Also: I prefer a playable character sheet that leaves off most of the costs of things - you hardly ever care how much things cost during actual play. And if you do need to know the AP cost, like for a Dispel or something, you just pull up the HD file. It's amazing how much simpler a Hero character sheet looks if you leave all those numbers off!

[Lucius]

The issue with Skill levels wasn't one of complication, but of concept. As one of my friends put it, "what's keeping people from just buying proficiency in skills, and a bunch of skill levels to use as needed?" I dislike the idea pretty strongly. One of the big draws for HERO its ability to represent characters with a high degree of granularity - if the system incentivizes  not doing that with skills, then I'm less than thrilled. Maybe I misunderstand it - but outside of some edge case where it really makes sense, I'm not a fan at this time.

Can you explain what it is you think a Skill Level is and how you think it works? I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from and relating what you're saying to the system as I understand it.

 

 

Generic skill levels just aren't appealing to me. It seems like an attempt to obviate the existence of the skill system, and I like the skill system.

I'm not sure what you mean by "generic" Skill Levels. And as Skill Levels are part of the Skill system I can't imagine how they obviate that system.

 

For people who like and use them, would you be so kind as to elaborate on why? If there's something awesome I'm missing, that would be good to know!

 

I might give that a shot.

 

So! I had this long, thoughtful reply all typed up. Then I accidentally hit "back," and it is gone forever.

Trust me, I know that feeling!

 

 

Short version!

• Skill levels sound great for games where skills are not as big a part. Abstracting away parts of the system you don't want to focus on is an excellent choice. The skill system is probably going to be a big deal in any game around these parts, so removing that option lets it shine more, which is what we want. Options are good!
• It's like, 3 CP to buy a skill at 1. In the grand scheme of things, that's not that much, though it can certainly add up. And if that's something you want abstracted, then it should be done so.
  • In some games, a Man of Steel's power set might be abstracted to a skill called "It's a bird! It's a plane!" which you would just roll whenever using those powers. Abstraction is very cool when you want it (and on some level, it's interesting that I'm advocating against it for my own case - this is usually the other way around), but when you don't, it can take away a part of the game you enjoy. Hence, we're not terribly interested in Skill Levels

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't see how Skill Levels "abstract away" something. And I have no idea at all what you mean by "It's like, 3 CP to buy a skill at 1." Generally, 3 pts buys a Skill with a Skill Roll equal to the Characteristic roll; is that what you mean by "at 1?"

 

 

Let me take a stab at what I think you're saying.

 

Say I want a character to be skilled at woodcraft. She can climb trees (Climbing) follow trails (Tracking) find food and shelter and make fire (Survival) move quietly (Stealth) set traps (Security Systems - possibly with a Limitation, "hunting traps and snares only") hide her own tracks and traps and hiding places (Concealment) and has learned a lot about the living things of the woods (KS: Woodland flora & fauna.) If I now buy her an ability I'll call "Woodlands Expert" defined as +1 or maybe +2 Skill Levels with that broad group of Skill I just named, and with Limitation "only in forests" - this is somehow objectionable to you, somehow takes away from the game's granularity or something?

 

Or if I want a mighty knight and he can not only ride a horse (Riding) but train and care for one (Animal Handler) and has been knocked off often enough to know how to fall (Breakfall, possibly with a Limitation "only falling from a horse") and of course knows how to behave at court and the etiquette of jousting (High Society, probably renamed to Courtier)and how to give a rousing speech on the battlefield or recite poetry to a lady (Oratory) and then I want to add "Exemplary Knight" defined as a +1 Skill Level with that specific group of skills - you would not allow it?

 

• And yeah, writing out the different levels of a given attack is something I tend to do in games like Pathfinder (Attack, Power Attack, Power Attack against Challenge Target, etc.) and I think I'd be much the same here.

 

 

Yeah, for my Fantasy Hero game I created for each player character a sheet listing manuevers in a format like

 

Attack OCV DCV Levels Description (including damage)

 

So a swordsman might have lines labeled "Sword Strike" "Shield Block" "Shield Bash" "Dodge" "All Out Attack with Sword" (i.e. a haymaker) etc.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Skill Levels with Palindromedary

[zslane]

The most important thing to remember about Hero is that you are not expected/required to use all rules in all games.

This is very true, though the same is true of all RPGs. Nobody should feel beholden to every word of the written rules--we don't live in the Gygax era of roleplaying anymore. :-)

 

But you know, there was a time when the Hero System was digestible enough that using all the rules was not just manageable, it was the desireable norm. In my view, the system lost this quality once the original BBB ceased to be the game standard. As much as I'm in favor of entirely new presentation for the game going forward, I'm not so sure that's enough to do the job. I think some major reconsolidation of rules/mechanics might be in order, though I suspect I'm in the minority in feeling this way.

[BhelliomRahl]

Going back to Altair's Improvisation Question.  I like my players to think outside of the box, coming up with inventive methods for using their powers in different ways.

 

From experience I find Hero can handle this quite well, you just need a good understanding of the Hero System and the players character build and concept.  

Using Spiderman's Web Shooters for example:  

Player has used a Multipower with the usual powers; Swing, Stretch, Entangle.  During a battle Spidery encounters minions who have non-sticky armour meaning he can't stick them with webbing, so he comes up with the concept for Impact Webbing (Balls of Compressed Web).  I think this is an interesting idea and well within the Web Shooter's abilities.  This power is best represented as a Blast.  His Multipower has 40AP Reserve and Blast is 1DC per 5pts, so he can do a 8DC Blast.

As I know the Hero system I came up with it quickly and it would not slow play down.

 

If the power is used out of combat, I have the player describe what it is doing and what outcome he wants.  If I think its appropriate I allow it and if required have them make a roll and add modifiers based upon the difficulty, depending upon the roll  I describe the outcome.

 

If he wants this to become a standard power in the future he has to build it, I probably gave the player extra Experience for inventive use of his powers.

 

As with any system, the better your knowledge and understanding of it the easier it is to be inventive.  

[Altair]

Can you explain what it is you think a Skill Level is and how you think it works? I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from and relating what you're saying to the system as I understand it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Skill Levels with Palindromedary

 

For sure! 

 

I was thinking more of Skill Levels at the "Overall" level. And in truth, I missed a lot of the in-between things - like your "woodlands expert" example, which are really quite cool. We had a mini character creation jam last night, and the player who had first introduced the concern about Skill Levels, made a character with 3 ranks in Skill Levels: Overall. And it didn't feel weird - just like, I don't know, effort. What are they focusing on? 

 

That was really the big thing for me - I had difficulty mapping the mechanical concept of overall skill levels to what they were supposed to represent. And then when I saw them in context, they weren't as weird for me. And I had a player making a character with a lot of skills - some unholy amalgam of Carol Danvers, Nick Fury and The Gorram Batman. 

 

As for "1 rank in a skill," that's my brain doing shorthand from other systems; I mean what you guessed. Skill roll at the characteristic roll, but not improved further.

 

I still like the granularity of the knight with Oratory at < 14, Courtier (I like that) at < 12, and Breakfall at < 17 ("I am tired of falling off my horse") - that tells me a lot about that character - but there's nothing wrong with adding two levels of Exemplary Knight to that; in fact, there's a lot that's great about it.

 

I'm finding myself more and more okay with it as I get more context. 

 

Thanks, Lucius - this was actually really helpful!

[Lucius]

For sure! 

 

I was thinking more of Skill Levels at the "Overall" level. And in truth, I missed a lot of the in-between things - like your "woodlands expert" example, which are really quite cool. We had a mini character creation jam last night, and the player who had first introduced the concern about Skill Levels, made a character with 3 ranks in Skill Levels: Overall. And it didn't feel weird - just like, I don't know, effort. What are they focusing on?

There are a few reasons I can think of to justify those Overall or "universal" levels.

 

"My character is omnicompetent - good at everything they try" This is especially justifiable if the character actually has 100+ points in various Skills anyway.

 

"My character is lucky and gets a bonus to everything" which goes well with buying Luck. I made a character once who was a Lucky Troll and had Overall Levels Usable on Others - touch the Lucky Troll and some of its luck would rub off. (Of course the Troll was also a hairy ugly little monster.)

 

"My character is highly intuitive and knows the best ways to do things" which could be some kind of psychic ability or "subconscious hypercognition" and either way might go with things like Danger Sense.

 

"My character is superintelligent and figures out on the fly how to best do things" which goes well with high INT and Deduction Skill.

 

"My character always knows a minor cantrip or two to make any task easier" which goes well with an appropriate Power (Magic) Skill.

 

"My character has lived for ages and whatever the task, has probably done something like it before" which goes well with Life Support: Longevity or a background involving reincarnation or frequent resurrection.

 

"My character is blessed by a God/Goddess/Ancestor/Guardian Spirit" which might have a Limitation that it stops working if the character somehow offends the source of the blessing (until making amends.)

 

"Humans are good at many things" if you are running a fantasy or science fiction game with different character types who have sets of abilities that define "Elf" and "Dwarf" and "Robot" and "Mutant" and "Martian" then giving Humans some bonuses like an Overall Level can make them a more interesting choice rather than just a bland "no special bonuses or penalties" default.

 

Okay, more than a "few".....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

"My character has a palindromedary"

[zslane]

As I know the Hero system I came up with it quickly and it would not slow play down.

Yes, this is exactly how the Hero System can be used to improvise power stunts on the fly during play. However, in that moment you basically gave the character several CP worth of a Multipower slot for free. If players want that sort of flexibility, to change the powers they can fire off at any given moment, well, that's what VPP is for. If you aren't going to make them buy a VPP and you are going to give them situational powers/slots for free, I recommend at least making the "stunt" dependent on some sort of skill or characteristic roll. Make that sort of flexibility at least a little unpredictable and potentially unreliable.

[bigdamnhero]

This is very true, though the same is true of all RPGs. Nobody should feel beholden to every word of the written rules--we don't live in the Gygax era of roleplaying anymore. :-)

Very true, tho Hero is more explicit about this than most games.

 

As much as I'm in favor of entirely new presentation for the game going forward, I'm not so sure that's enough to do the job. I think some major reconsolidation of rules/mechanics might be in order, though I suspect I'm in the minority in feeling this way.

I don't disagree. The problem would be trying to decide which rules to consolidate/restructure; my "needless complexity" is likely to be your "essential core mechanic" and vice-versa.

 

From experience I find Hero can handle this quite well, you just need a good understanding of the Hero System and the players character build and concept.   

Aye, and there's the rub. With great flexibility comes great potential to slow the game down to a crawl, especially for a table full of "returning newbies."

[Doc Democracy]

I think one of the biggest barriers to new HERO GMs is that a decent game based on HERO really requires a good bit of game mechanic thought put in by the GM before anything starts. It us not just about the setting and story using the rules as written (or even almost as written).

 

What it does do is forestall future arguments by being explicit in what you do and do not want to use or utilise. It also means players will not invest too much thought into mechanics or constructs that will not be accepted.

 

I think it is also worth having a relaxed character creation session where everyone can talk through characters and design and power levels etc. you need to get used to not saying no, but instead, "I don't like that construct, what are you trying to achieve? Let's see how we can get that in another way..."

[Altair]

Yeah, I feel like eventually, we'll be at enough comfortability with the system that certain things look much more appealing then they do when we're just starting out. Eventually we're all going to really like VPPs, for example. But man, that day is not today. Mostly, we've just been kicking around, doing context-light character creation to get a feel for things. It's been great, and eye-opening. 

 

@Doc Democracy - yeah, HERO seems quite front-loaded, both in play, and in getting started. That's a challenge, but also one of its more attractive features.

 

@Lucius - thanks, that's actually quite helpful. I was, quite irrationally, cranky at the mechanic, without taking it in its own context first. !

[Altair]

Another thing that I'm sure there's a great reason for, but I'm not sure about. 

 

Why isn't there a Stop sign in front of Multiform? It seems to be a straight-up power increase, to say nothing of the versatility boost. I've not really heard any horror stories, so I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I see a huge point imbalance there. If everybody in the group is spending ~200 CP on powers, you can have Dr. Tapestry built more or less the same as everybody else, but when he shifts into the Incredible Bulk (as a zero-phase action), he's now built on 975 points, most of which are spent on combat. 

 

What obvious thing am I missing that keeps this from being a problem? Because I feel like there's an obvious thing that I'm missing.