Magic Roll Penalty help please

[OdinsEye]

Me and my group can't quite seem to wrap our heads around magic roll penalties in books such as the Grimoire, playing in a Fantasy Hero Complete campaign.

 

If you as a wizard has the Magic skill (for casting spells) at say 13 (before the skill maxima kicks in), then casting a staple of mages Firebolt skill (p. 135 of Grimoire) at 2d6.

Then if we're understanding this right you'd be rolling against, 13 (skill level) - 4 (MRP) = 9. This would only give an average mage a 39% chance of succeeding to cast the spell?

 

This would be at a -6 for the 3d6 version, 13 - 6 = 7 = 19% chance of success.

Fireball at 2d6 would equate, 13 - 5 = 8 = 28% chance to cast the spell.

Fireball at 3d6 would equate, 13 - 7 = 7 = 19% chance of success again.

 

This seems very harshly low for a spell that could be considered standard for many mages.

 

Then after that you'd need to roll to see if the attack even hits with many spells.

 

This in contrast to a warrior that never fails and only rolls for the attack hitting, and with most of our other characters of other "classes" doing in the range of 2d6 to 3d6 HKA/RKA damage as standard in our campaign.

This doesn't seem to balance correctly if we're understanding this right.

 

--

 

Then you have spells like Create Ghost (p. 180) at a -19 basic, Create Mummy (p. 181) at - 16 basic.

Even if you had a character at the very top of his skill reasonable for fantasy game (not to mention if you have character skill maxima in place) we're not understanding how these spells would even be possible?

 

Example:

18 (skill level) - 19 (Create Ghost MRP) = -1 = no possibility

20 (skill level) - 19 (Create Ghost MRP) = 1 = no possibility

 

And this is just with the basic spell, more powerful version with greater MRPies are available.

 

 

Are we missing something here, because as we're understanding it now we don't really see how this is balanced against other types of fantasy characters, giving a low to very low probability of getting a spell cast and then on top of that spell to hit a target for most spells, and with many of the spells in the Grimoire simply not being possible to cast given their high MRP numbers?

 

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Power skill rolls of that sort generally are allowed to be purchased much higher than others because of this penalty.  For example, I will build mages with a roll that - including the penalty of their most difficult spell to cast - is at least 11-, which can mean its 18- or higher.

 

This gets more challenging if you have house rules such as a penalty for each other spell you are currently "running" or have active, penalties for actions such as combat or being hit, encumbrance, etc.  So items that increase magic skill rolls like staves, a familiar, spells, etc are valuable.

[Chris Goodwin]

You could also have a dozen or more spells that require the Magic Skill Roll.  That could save you a tidy bundle of points on the spells.  You would be spending some of those saved points on increasing your Magic Skill Roll...

 

Part of the deal is that the spells with higher Active Points, thus higher penalties to the Skill Roll, are generally considered "higher level" or more complex.  That guy with the base Magic Roll of 13- has a 9- to cast the Fireball because it's a moderately complicated spell; of course the first level D&D wizard can't even cast a Fireball!  

 

Also note that with GM permission you can apply Complementary Skills (FHC p. 27-28) to your Magic Roll.  Suppose you have KS: Fire Magic on 15-; when casting your Fireball you could roll your KS, and let's say you roll 11 on that one; you've made it by 4, thus giving you +2 to cast your Fireball.  

[Chris Goodwin]

Then you have spells like Create Ghost (p. 180) at a -19 basic, Create Mummy (p. 181) at - 16 basic.

Even if you had a character at the very top of his skill reasonable for fantasy game (not to mention if you have character skill maxima in place) we're not understanding how these spells would even be possible?

 

Example:

18 (skill level) - 19 (Create Ghost MRP) = -1 = no possibility

20 (skill level) - 19 (Create Ghost MRP) = 1 = no possibility

 

And this is just with the basic spell, more powerful version with greater MRPies are available.

 

 

Are we missing something here, because as we're understanding it now we don't really see how this is balanced against other types of fantasy characters, giving a low to very low probability of getting a spell cast and then on top of that spell to hit a target for most spells, and with many of the spells in the Grimoire simply not being possible to cast given their high MRP numbers?

 

With these hugely penalized spells, it's assuming you're going to be taking lots of extra time, doing research, ensuring you've got just the right conditions of quiet, casting it in a graveyard at midnight where Everyone Knows ghosts hang out, and so on and so forth, to get the additional bonuses.  Plus being a highly skilled necromancer, having built your Skill up over time, plus having KS: Ghosts and KS: Necromancy and so on.  

 

Edit to add: Those modifiers are on FHC p. 28.  Take advantage of them!  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right, things like location, time of the year, equipment, extra time taken, even stuff like astral alignments and special holidays or events can help.  Your GM will be likely glad to give you a hand with some of this, and giving your suggestions can help them out.

[Outsider]

Yeah, some of the spells in the books have ludicrous casting penalties.   You can get around that in a number of ways..

 

1) As was suggested above, work with your GM to establish situation bonuses.  I don't really like this method because your casting remains either unlikely or nearly impossible unless you fit the bonus situation.   I can see it working on the earth shattering spells (-15 or -20 to cast) since you probably shouldn't be casting those in normal circumstances anyway, but it really sucks for your bread and butter spells such as your personal defense force field, or your basic attack spells.  Also... If, to generate the bonuses needed to actually be able to cast the spell at all, I need to be in a graveyard, it needs to be midnight, there has to be a new moon overhead, AND it should be Halloween,  then I would kinda think those should be limitations on the spell and make it a LOT cheaper... like -2 per condition...

 

 

For spells you intend to cast more or less at will:

 

1) As was suggested above, buy your skill up past the normal skill maximum.  I generally aim for enough skill to have a 14- chance to cast my standard spells.  

 

2) If that is too expensive, or your GM balks at letting you buy your skill that high, see if you can buy a focus that adds to your casting skill.  "Why yes, I can cast Fireball without my Charwood Staff, but it is so much easier to cast it with it!"

 

 

3)  Have a spell that raises your casting roll.  

_____Big Ritual Method = lots of skill levels, with trigger advantage (skill levels activate on your next casting roll)

_____I am attuned to the thaumaturgic field method = Aid (slow loss) the stat your casting skill is based on.

(skill levels with trigger advantage) or or one that raises the stat your casting roll is based on.

[Lucius]

There are several ways to deal with this problem. I'll start with my preferred method, which is arguably more complex than some other solutions.

 

Mana Pool:  (Total: 21 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) Endurance Reserve  (52 END, 12 REC) Reserve:  (21 Active Points); Requires A Magic Roll (Skill roll; -1/2); REC:  (8 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, Character May Take No Other Actions, -3 1/4), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; Jammed; Meditation; -1) (Real Cost: 10)

Do NOT put "Requires a Roll" as a limitation on the SPELLS. Instead, the spells draw off a special "END Reserve" called mana. The END in that poll is what has a Skill Roll attached, so you still need to make the roll to cast a spell - but instead of the crippling or impossible penalty based on the Active Points of the spell, you make a roll based on only the amount of END you are using to cast.

 

The spells may cost slightly more, but at least you can cast them. The way I set it up, recovering the mana requires an hour and success at a Meditation roll, but you can do it differently. I like the idea of having a Skill Roll associated with spellcasting, but I don't like the idea of imposing ridiculous penalties; that's why I like this solution.

 

 

Other solutions:

 

 

Of Course I can Cast Spells, I'm a Wizard:  (Total: 20 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) +10 with Power (20 Active Points); Limited Power Only to counter Active Point penalties (-1) (Real Cost: 10)

Buy Skill Levels, only vs the penalties. Your 13 or less roll stays a 13 or less roll, even if casting a 100 Active Point spell. You can put this on a Focus to make it cheaper.

 

 

Use an Activation Roll instead of a Skill Roll. For some reason, those don't take a penalty. You can also set the roll at 8 if you just learned the spell and as you put more points into it, increase the roll.

 

 

Don't take Requires a Roll at all.

 

 

Ignore the Active Point penalty. Possibly permit a +1/4 Advantage to do this.

 

 

Buy your Skill up to ridiculous levels.

 

 

Find a way to finagle a lot of bonuses - Extra Time, circumstance, etc.

 

 

Give spellcasters a break on spell cost. Turakian Age does this. Figure out the spells Real Cost, then divide that by 3 to get Final Cost. This is to try to balance spellcasters against other character types who get free weapons, don't have to make Skill Rolls, etc.

 

 

 

The only other thing I can think of is buying your spellcaster's SPD to 12, so you can try the roll every single segment and hopefully actually succeed by the time Post Segment 12 comes around. Or buying the Skill itself multiple times with Trigger set to go off in case of Skill failure.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or you can get a palindromedary

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its important to keep your caster in perspective.  If you're able to cast a spell that blows up all the orcs in an area for as much damage as the fighter can do with one swing against one orc... that's pretty damn powerful.  So it should be harder to do, very challenging, in fact.  Challenging enough that only someone with great skill and experience can do it.

[Steve]

I do something like what Lucius wrote up, only I call it "Spell Familiarity" instead. A wizard casting a new spell gets the Active Point penalty unless they pay a point to have a Spell Familiarity with that spell. It's simple but gives a nice flavor for experienced spellcasters.

[mhd]

My "solution" to this general problem was extending all skills to the increased range that Power skills usually get. I mean, I got no problems with that in a superheroic setting, where it really hardly matters, but for skill-centric Heroic games, it's nice to have several degrees of capability (esp. if they're not based on just having superior stats or skill category adders).

 

That worked well enough for our 'one skill per spell' setting, although you could easily do it the way FH suggest in it's 'Spells of Sarillion' example, where there's no active point penalty on the skills and ease of access is done via other ways. One could  theoretically have different costs for different spells (from 1+1 to 3+2 or worse). Although that would almost assume that you've got a limit on generic modifiers.

 

And of course, collecting modifiers. Have your +2 focus-based spell adder, assume that most spells are that hard because that's the abbreviated combat version and just "ritualize" them otherwise (great for Summon spells or battle magic), where you get a +X from ritual components, maybe some extra participants and generally a modifier based on the different time scale.

[OdinsEye]

This has turned into quite the interesting discussion, thanks so much for all the great replies. I'm bringing this thread to the attention of my group so we can find a solution that everyone is happy with.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you as a wizard has the Magic skill (for casting spells) at say 13 (before the skill maxima kicks in), then casting a staple of mages Firebolt skill (p. 135 of Grimoire) at 2d6.

First off, one solution is to structure a magic system which does not require skill rolls at all. The spell becomes more expensive, but more reliable.

 

A 13 Magic skill is a basic roll for an 18-20 INT character, so strikes me as basic training. A warrior with 18 STR and 3 points of weapon familiarities is a comparably skilled character. Now, if we assume each "level" mandates +1 to the skill roll, then before any other increases, a "5th level" spellcaster has a 17- roll. Those -4 and -6 penalties leave a required roll of 13- (80% or so IIRC) and 11- (62.5%). Not bad. Not guaranteed, but not bad. A D&D Wizard won't fail to cast his Fireball, but he won't be casting nearly as many in a day either.

 

Now, my D&CLone Wizard should have a Familiar - and the Hero familiar does, IIRC, impart a magic skill bonus to his master. Maybe he'll instead sport a magic wand (shades of Harry Potter!), or a magic amulet, or such, which facilitates casting spells, granting a further bonus.

 

For the very powerful spells, very powerful wizards may be required (my +1 roll per level brings me to 30- at 18th level, so that -19 penalty puts me at 11-). More commonly, however, I would not expect to Create a Ghost or a Mummy in three or four seconds. Extra Time is definitely useful for skill bonuses.

 

No question, however, that the Fighter can get a bow or a sword for a lot less points than the Wizard casting a spell for similar damage. So why is the Wizard trying to compete on Fighter turf? What about a spell of Invisibility or Flight? For attacks, why not a more esoteric choice such as Flash, or Drain, instead of a flashier bow and arrow? That Fireball hits multiple targets, unlike a sword or bow, doesn`t it?

 

The big thing I'd suggest your group may be missing, however, is that there is no need for the wizard to stick to his basic INT-based skill roll, any more than the Fighter will stick to his base Weapon Familiarity. He`s not doing 2d6 or 3d6 with a Longsword and 18 STR!

 

An extra 8 points invested in Magic Skill gives that Wizard a 17- skill, so his 3d6 Fireball with a -7 penalty works on a 10- (50%), and he can choose to cast at lower power for greater reliability (2d6 on 12- is what, 70%+). But why just do damage? At 45 Active Points (-4, so 13-), he can do 9d6 Flash, blinding his target to facilitate Called Shots by his teammates and markedly reducing the target`s ability to attack. That same 45 AP can Drain away 3d6 of Strength in a small (+1/2) radius area. How effective are those Brigands now? A 4 1/2 Mental Blast will pass 16 points of Stun damage on average, bypassing armor and Stunning many targets. A 4d6, 5 Defense Web Entangle is very effective, and at 3d6, 3 DEF, you can cover a wide area in such webbing. A Barrier provides cover, or englobes enemies, splitting their forces.

 

Do normal damage? Let the Fighters and Rogues handle that - it`s really all those poor Muggles are suited for. Magic can do so much more!

[Vondy]

I've found, over the years, that using penalties of greater than +4/-4 "breaks": the bell-curve and leads to skill roll inflation. In other words, it puts one set of skills and modifiers (magic) out of sync with the rest of the system.

It also renders the benchmarks for skill rolls in the main book, with 20- as "greatest in history," utterly meaningless.

 

I can understand +6/-6 in highly rare and difficult circumstances, but as a rule I don't go past +4/-4. I still give a -1/2 for RSR, but the spread is smaller and its not strictly active point based. Instead difficulty is: Routine (-0), Easy (-1), Moderate (-2), Hard (-3), Very Hard (-4), Extreme (-5), Legendary (-6). These can be modified upward and downward by a host of circumstances and factors, but I never exceed +6/-6.

[Steve]

If the penalty is too much, you might consider altering the skill roll limitation to be -1/20 Active Points at -1/4 instead of the normal -1/10. I would further suggest adding an INT Minimum to spells which would work like STR Minimum, a higher INT gives a bonus to magic rolls per 5 points over the minimum. Depending on how high you set the minimum, powerful spells may just require smarter wizards.

 

I mentioned Spell Familiarity in my earlier post, which is what I may change to calling Rote Magic instead. A wizard could have a list of pre-written spells which get a rote bonus, either because they've paid points to have it or just as a magic system assumption for free. If you go with a -1/20 skill roll, you could add in a rote magic bonus to offset the penalty that would only need to range from +1 to +5.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Again, I want to suggest that the high penalty is as Chris Goodwin puts it, 

 

of course the first level D&D wizard can't even cast a Fireball! 

 

 

In other words, this isn't a bug, its a feature.  You look at the list of spells and go "cool! all this stuff" when you should be examining them by active cost as if they are "levels" of spells ala AD&D.  If a spell is too difficult for your character to reasonably cast, then they aren't experienced and powerful enough to pull that off yet.

[Ninja-Bear]

I changed magic spells from -1/10 to -1/20 and it made cadting magic alot easier.

[Zeropoint]

In my homebrew magic system, I just went with assumption that the seemingly high penalty for casting a spell reflects the characters ability to cast it from memory in the space of one or two seconds while someone is trying to kill them--NOT easy! The OP mentioned a spell with a -19 penalty . . . at -1 per 10 AP, that's a 190 AP spell--only a mage of frightening power and skill should be able to cast a spell like that with a casual wave of a hand.

 

A 2d6 RKA lightning bolt spell would only have a -3 penalty; a mage only needs a skill of 21 with Elemental Magic to cast that at "don't roll an 18".

 

I suppose I should point out that I set up my magic system to discourage "dabblers" who only know one or two spells--the category skills and multipower setup make the first spell expensive, but each additional spell quite cheap.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well yeah.  Look at it this way.  You can do, what, 3d6 HKA with a two hander and a lot of strength plus some levels?  And that's going to be pushing the campaign limits of most games I'd think.  Anything more than that and there's really no point in wearing armor.

 

So that's 9 damage classes, or 45 points.  that's a -4 to your magic skill roll.  If you buy it up to 16- or more, you have a fair shot at pulling it off.

But with magic you can do some more fancy stuff.  Take those 45 active points and you can build a fireball that does 7d6 energy damage (most targets have lower ED, so powerful) over a 16m radius explosion.  That's gigantic.

Armor piercing is a 1/4 advantage so you can pull off a 2d6+1 RKA armor piercing blast with that.  And make it target ED again.  That's better than a heavy longbow.

Those are pretty darn effective spells.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well yeah. Look at it this way. You can do, what, 3d6 HKA with a two hander and a lot of strength plus some levels? And that's going to be pushing the campaign limits of most games I'd think. Anything more than that and there's really no point in wearing armor.

 

So that's 9 damage classes, or 45 points. that's a -4 to your magic skill roll. If you buy it up to 16- or more, you have a fair shot at pulling it off.

But with magic you can do some more fancy stuff. Take those 45 active points and you can build a fireball that does 7d6 energy damage (most targets have lower ED, so powerful) over a 16m radius explosion. That's gigantic.

Armor piercing is a 1/4 advantage so you can pull off a 2d6+1 RKA armor piercing blast with that. And make it target ED again. That's better than a heavy longbow.

Those are pretty darn effective spells.

True. In 4th fantasy hero, some of the colleges had side effect which can still make you question wheter you want to cast that spell or not.

[Ninja-Bear]

Once again this discussion shows one of the strengths of Hero system. You can relativly easly change the system to suit your tastes. And 98% of that is already accounted for in the rules.

[Markdoc]

it depends on what you expect from your magic system. I like skill rolls (in fact, in general, I mandate them in my campaign) because I like the idea that controlling magic is a mixture of skill and occult might. However, like Vondy, I'm not fond of forcing sky-high skill rolls, for pretty much the reasons he lists.

 

However, I also like the idea that magic is a ritual-rich, complicated sort of thing, rather than just a way to make a fantasy machinegun.

 

The solution (for me) is to utilise all of the myth and lore we have built up around magic over the last centuries. So, for example, I'm perfectly happy with characters who build skill levels into foci such as wands, or Aid into a familiar. I give bonuses for appropriate settings and time (in fact the last campaign had a table on specific foci, times and seasons related to each school of magic, that a clever player could use to get a whopping bonus to his skill roll). Extra time is the easiest way to get a bonus to your skill roll. I allow complementary skill rolls to give a bonus, so accumulating ancient lore not only helps with in-game knowledge but can boost your magical power too (in appropriate circumstances).

 

But all of this is a specific game style. If your idea of a mage is someone who hunts through ancient lore, and accumulates occult knowledge then the idea that it's easiest to cast "raise dead" in a cemetery at the dead of night under a new moon, while holding a silver scythe is perfectly OK. If you want a spellslinger who weaves through combat twin-wielding wands and flinging doombolts at his foes, it's not going to be your kind of thing. It works for me, because I go with the pulp fantasy idea that if you just want somebody dead, you get a barbarian with a terrible swift sword. On the other hand, if you need to find and enter the famed city of ghouls in the centre of the Stubbornly Unmapped Waste of Kool, then you'll probably want a wizard.

 

So if skill rolls are a problem for your game ... drop them. If (like me) you see them as a feature, then take advantage of them.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh and is there still a -0 limation no active point penalty? That would make all your rolls straight magic rolls.

[Chris Goodwin]

Oh and is there still a -0 limation no active point penalty? That would make all your rolls straight magic rolls.

 

There isn't, but that's easily enough remedied with a house rule.  -1 per 20 is 1/4 less Limitation, so as a house rule you could say no penalty is 1/2 less, possibly taking it to a minimum value of -0 (the standard minimum value is -1/4).  

[NuSoardGraphite]

I tend to support a combination of the High skill roll method (allowing skill rolls as high as 20) and the build-A-bonus method allowing bonuses for many situations.

 

The easiest are complementary skill rolls. I support a method of a successful skill roll provides a +1. A critical success provides a +2.

 

Extra time

 

Skill Levels of course (see below)

 

Celestial influence: full moon +1. New moon -1. Solstice +3. Equinox +2. Eclipse +3 (for the duration of the eclipse) planetary alignment +1-+3 (depending on number of planets in alignment) The Magician constellation rising +3. In retrograde -3. Solar flare -1 to -3 (depending on size and intensity)

 

Earth Power: magical flows +1 to +3 (depending on power level) Nexus points +3 to +5 (multiple flows that intersect) power fountains +3 (power from deep in the earth bubble up here. Often the source of a magical flow) null zone -1 to -5 (area devoid of background magical energy. Difficult to cast spells in that area. Some are so devoid, casting is impossible. Often the site of great magical battles where the mana was compltely drained from the surroundings)

 

Note: Magical Skill Levels.

I treat MSLs much in the same way I treat CSLs.

 

2pt: Can apply to a single spell.

3pt: Can apply to a specific "spell list"*

5pt: Can apply to a specific realm of power corresponding to the appropriate characteristic roll (Int, Ego or Pre)

8pt: Can apply to any kind of spell regardless of category or realm of power.

10pt: overall skill levels apply normally.

 

MSLs can be used to enhance the magic skill roll of course. 2 skill levels can be spend to add +5AP to the spell (expending 6 MSLs adds +15AP) but the new AP count for the casting penalty and END, and it is considered "Overcasting"*

1 MSL can be used to reduce the Endurance/Mana cost of spells on a 1 for 1 basis. Spend 5 MSLs and reduce the Mana cost by 5 points down to a minimum of 1/2 the normal Mana cost.

 

* Overcasting is when the mage is casting a spell beyond their basic capabilities or when trying to push spells higher than normal. A mage can safely cast spells with an active point cost or less of their Casting characteristic times 3. Thus a mage (Intelligence based magic) has an Int of 15. That means they can safely cast up to 45 Active point spells. Anything over 45 Active points is Overcasting. When Overcasting, a normal failure roll becomes a complete failure, incurring the Side Effect. A complete failure becomes a Critical failure, incurring the maximum Side Effect result. A Critical Failure becomes a Catastrophic failure, incurring special results in addition to the Side Effect.

 

Note a "Complete Failure" is failing the roll by more than 3 points.

A Critical Failure is rolling twice the modified chance to succeed. If the casting roll is an 8 or less, then a Critical Failure results on a 16 or higher roll. Note that no matter the skill roll, an 18 is always a critical failure.

A Catastrophic Failure only results during an Overcasting roll.

[Christopher R Taylor]

True. In 4th fantasy hero, some of the colleges had side effect which can still make you question wheter you want to cast that spell or not. 

 

 

Having helped build those schools, I can say that was part of the "Bible" for the spells that Rob Bell gave us.  You had to have x sorts of spells (a defense spell, a movement spell, a few attack spells, etc) and they had to have side effects, spell roll, etc.  So there's a great deal of similarity but a cohesive pattern of magic and how it works between all the various types of magic, no matter how odd or different they happened to be.

 

And that, to me, is the key: to make it feel consistent and united instead of hodge-podge of random types.

 

*Edit: also, 4th edition side effects were a flat minimum cost for the modifier, so you could have a 5 point light spell that had a 30 point side effect :/