5e: Draining .... charges?

[Surrealone]

Context:

A character that has control of forces/energy (a la a 60AP VPP) at all levels (i.e. particle, wave, quantum, weak force, strong force, etc.) and who can redirect it, convert energy to mass (i.e. build bonds), convert mass to energy (i.e. break bonds), change the vector of a force, etc -- wants to render the bullets in the magazine of an opponent's firearm ... inert. 

 

The simplest description of the effect would be dissipation/diffusion of the potential energy of the gunpowder and primer of the rounds (which, interestingly, would cause a malfunction when trigger was pulled -- not quite a jam, but a click instead of a bang that would require the opponent to clear the firearm -- try the next round, and also find that it only goes click).  Were the rounds represented by an END battery, an END drain would make sense, but for actual charges and/or clips, I'm aware of no game mechanic that would allow one to directly drain (i.e. using Drain) charges like one would drain END.

 

Given the SFX, I'm thinking a continuous, uncontrolled, minor transformation attack with IPE for the source/SFX makes the most sense from a mechanical angle -- to render unused charges into duds.  However, I'm not sure how much body a 9mm round has... or a magazine full of rounds has.  Frankly, there's not a pile of potential energy or even mass in a 9mm round, so this should be pretty trivial for an energy manipulator ... but mechanically it may be more challenging, since I haven't the foggiest idea what the BODY of a 9mm round, a magazine full of them, etc. should be. 

 

Is there a cleaner approach?  Thoughts on what body total needs to be double using transform?  Other ideas?

[Hyper-Man]

Just spit-balling off the top of my head....

 

Another option to consider would be Dispel with a custom Limitation for it to only affect Charges instead of the core Power.  The core Power still defines the target # that has to be beat with the Dispel effect roll.

 

HM

[Surrealone]

Unfortunately Dispel is Instant ... and the expected result would be for charge after charge to go click instead of bang.  Suppress could be used, but now we've gone from dissipating the potential energy ... to merely suppressing its ability to function ... and those are quite different in game terms as a scene plays out over turns.

[massey]

Dispel can break foci.

[womble]

Does it help to ask where the (chemical) potential energy of the propellant goes? I know the details are generally well below the abstraction layer, but it might inspire... Similarly, does it help put bounds (upper and lower) on the cost/effectiveness of the ability to consider how the energy manipulator perceives the chemical bonds in the propellant and can discriminate between those and the bonds in the gun/magazine/cartridge's construction materials? If "seeing" (feeling, whatever) through the obscuring layers of flesh, wood/plastic, steel and brass is difficult, you don't have to worry too much if the costs make it a "weak" power: it might even be easier just to dispel the bonds in the gun's chassis... Does the ability to control energy automatically confer the ability to know how to manipulate it? Does the power need a "KS: chemistry" roll? If it's just a "suck energy out of the system" thing, then a Drain on the RKA might be the straightforward way of doing it. Since the character isn't trying to just drain a few of the charges, it doesn't really matter, in terms of mechanical effect, that the RKA has charges; he's just trying to get rid of them. Maybe let the Drain work at full effect/cost against the cost of the RKA, modified by the Charges Limitation only? 

[Ninja-Bear]

If you think about it, charges are nothing more than END with either a limitation or advatage attached to it. So I would allow the dispel versus END to work on charges.

 

Clever use of special effect! (I tip my hat to you)

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd allow dispel, because inanimate objects do not recover from dispel or drains.

[Hyper-Man]

Dispel vs. Charges Only is cool in that it could be setup to work only vs. 'clip' currently in the weapon. If the target has other spare clips they could potentially reload working rounds... (unless the Dispel was built with AOE).

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

A completely different and non-permanent way to accomplish a similar effect would be to build a Change Environment based ability that affects the local Physical Laws in such a way that gunpowder no longer burns*. 

 

*Anyone familiar with Zelazney's Amber, the Jewel of Judgement and Jeweler's Rouge will understand what I'm talking about.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd probably requires a transform for something that significant a change.

[IndianaJoe3]

Thinking about it, Drain seems to fit the mechanics best. You're weakening/removing one of the target's Powers. If the Drain is easily undone (by the target spending a Phase to swap in a fresh magazine), that's probably a Limitation. However, if Extra Clips are rare, it's probably not worth anything (-0),

[Lucius]

I will SWEAR that I have seen something about rules to apply Adjustment Powers to Charges, but I can't seem to track it down now. I know it used to be in the Rules FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)but where the heck are they hiding the Rules FAQ now?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did the palindromedary eat it?

[Christopher]

If you think about it, charges are nothing more than END with either a limitation or advatage attached to it. So I would allow the dispel versus END to work on charges.

 

Clever use of special effect! (I tip my hat to you)

I like to think of it as plain 0 End, with some limitations put on top of it to change it#s value.

Frankly they could have just written "can't turn into an advantage bigger then what 0 End is in the same case", rather then all these special rules about maximum values and Autofire.

 

Dispel vs Charges would work. As was said, you can dispel a Focus (the clip by definition is a collection of Foci). This is especialyl true if the real weapon limitation is aplied to the gun.

 

Transform can also work. After all you do take a power (the gun) away, until action is taken (switching the magazine).

 

One tricky part is that "charges" can mean a lot of things.

You gave the example of clips in a gun.

But what if I make a magic scroll? (specific power writeup, one charge) Could that hero disable it?

What if charges are used to define stuff like medicine (there are some Aid examples). Would there be less pills? Each pill less effective?

 

I think you might focus to much on special effect, not nearly enough on game effect.

That you disable the gun this way, is the special effect.

That you disable the gun, is the game effect.

Always model the game effect, ignore the special effect for that phase. If you are new to hero, you can quickly fall in the trap of looking at special effect like something that significantly maters (like in D&D).

 

If you can't find a single game effect, you might just not have a single power before you at all. You may have to use a collection of Powers (Multipower, VPP). Or maybe use a different power that can do it all, then limit it down to the desired effect.

It can even happen that the power should be logically able to do something that no balanced hero power should be able to do. This is usually a big hickup with writing up gravity powers (a prime example).

[Hyper-Man]

I found this in the 5e FAQ:

 

 

Is it possible to use an Adjustment Power to affect a power’s Charges, and if so, how?

Assuming appropriate special effects and the GM’s permission, yes, it’s possible to do that. Divide the Active Points in the power by the number of Charges it has. That gives a “point total” for each Charge, then apply the Adjustment Power as per normal.

 

 

 

HERO Games FAQ 5e.htm

 

Lord Liaden has PDF copies that he posted to another thread in the past month or so as well.

[Surrealone]

Does it help to ask where the (chemical) potential energy of the propellant goes? I know the details are generally well below the abstraction layer, but it might inspire... Similarly, does it help put bounds (upper and lower) on the cost/effectiveness of the ability to consider how the energy manipulator perceives the chemical bonds in the propellant and can discriminate between those and the bonds in the gun/magazine/cartridge's construction materials? If "seeing" (feeling, whatever) through the obscuring layers of flesh, wood/plastic, steel and brass is difficult, you don't have to worry too much if the costs make it a "weak" power: it might even be easier just to dispel the bonds in the gun's chassis... Does the ability to control energy automatically confer the ability to know how to manipulate it? Does the power need a "KS: chemistry" roll? If it's just a "suck energy out of the system" thing, then a Drain on the RKA might be the straightforward way of doing it. Since the character isn't trying to just drain a few of the charges, it doesn't really matter, in terms of mechanical effect, that the RKA has charges; he's just trying to get rid of them. Maybe let the Drain work at full effect/cost against the cost of the RKA, modified by the Charges Limitation only? 

 

It doesn't help to ask a lot of the above because the character need not understand the science behind the power for it to manifest.  It's a lot like mind over matter (and sometimes is, since matter is just a collection of energy/forces in relatively static forms) ... except it's mind over forces/energy.  There's no roll required for use of the pool in this way, and no special perception is required aside from perceiving the target.

 

 

Anyone familiar with Zelazney's Amber, the Jewel of Judgement and Jeweler's Rouge will understand what I'm talking about.

 

 

Loved that series; it's been a LONG time since I read it, though...

 

 

One tricky part is that "charges" can mean a lot of things.

You gave the example of clips in a gun.

But what if I make a magic scroll? (specific power writeup, one charge) Could that hero disable it?

What if charges are used to define stuff like medicine (there are some Aid examples). Would there be less pills? Each pill less effective?

 

I think you might focus to much on special effect, not nearly enough on game effect.

That you disable the gun this way, is the special effect.

That you disable the gun, is the game effect.

Always model the game effect, ignore the special effect for that phase. If you are new to hero, you can quickly fall in the trap of looking at special effect like something that significantly maters (like in D&D).

 

In this case the example I gave was a gun with charges/clips, but because a no roll, nearly cosmic VPP is at play and it's a mind-over-forces/energy application, the character could probably do the same thing to a scroll or other foci.

 

I found this in the 5e FAQ:

 

HERO Games FAQ 5e.htm

 

Lord Liaden has PDF copies that he posted to another thread in the past month or so as well.

Thanks, I'm going to dig to try to find that PDF!  Hopefully the search function will turn it up fairly readily.

[Hyper-Man]

As I suspected but could not confirm until now, the rule is listed in 5er (Steve Long has stated that 5er is essentially 5e plus all the FAQ rulings that he had made up till the point of writing that 2nd book).

From 5er page 112:

LIMITATIONS
Charges: With the GM’s permission, a character can use an Adjustment Power just to aff ect a target power’s Charges. Divide the Active Points in the power by the number of Charges it has. Using the resulting “point total” for each Charge, apply the Adjustment Power as per normal.

 

 

A version of this doesn't make an appearance in the 6e rules until APG1 page 55:

Limitations
Charges: With the GM’s permission, a character can use an Adjustment Power just to affect a target power’s Charges. Divide the Active Points in the power by the number of Charges it has. Using the resulting “point total” for each Charge, apply the Adjustment Power as per normal. Of course, the GM should forbid any use of this rule that seems abusive or unbalancing, such as Adjusting Charges which Never Recover.

 

 

 

 

HM

[Scott Baker]

As I suspected but could not confirm until now, the rule is listed in 5er (Steve Long has stated that 5er is essentially 5e plus all the FAQ rulings that he had made up till the point of writing that 2nd book).

 

From 5er page 112:

 

A version of this doesn't make an appearance in the 6e rules until APG1 page 55:

 

HM

Thanks! You just saved me a bunch of time looking for this.

[Surrealone]

Thanks!  No luck with the search function finding a link to the 5e FAQ, but I sent a private message to Lord Liaden; hopefully he has it handy. 

[Hyper-Man]

Thanks!  No luck with the search function finding a link to the 5e FAQ, but I sent a private message to Lord Liaden; hopefully he has it handy. 

 

This is the thread you are looking for:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92454-archives/

 

HM