Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Vondy]

Right, so the gist of Markdoc's analysis is that Hero Games is simply not doing any of the things necessary to compete in the RPG space (what I referred to as "functioning as a legitimate publisher"). And trust me, HG is not competing. It is barely surviving, and only on the strength of the devotion of its hardcore following.

 

As I've said before, talking about what Hero Games should be doing with its products is missing the forest for the trees. The lack of compelling campaign settings and Ready To Play beginner products is a symptom, not the disease. Merely treating the symptom(s) is futile; it is the disease that needs to be eradicated.

 

Now, I don't know how to eradicate the disease since [a] I am not a business guru, nor do I have a pile of cash to throw at the problem. But let's not kid ourselves about what really needs to be done. Until the community can find both [a] and somewhere, any debate over what tune to whistle into the howling winds is pretty pointless.

 

What is your point?

 

You've already said this, so I'm not sure why your still harping on it.

 

You either 1) make a licensed product, 2) accept the status quo, or 3) move on.

 

A fourth option is to bang on Jason's metaphorical door with a load of avuncular advice.

 

I'm not sure, unless you have incredible skills, that is going to go down well.

 

Bitching about people kibitzing is the one thing that is less productive than kibitzing.

[zslane]

You are right. It is time for me to move on.

 

I guess that before I did so, I wanted to see some indication that everyone else understood the situation as it really was, and weren't wasting their time without at least realizing they were wasting their time (particularly if their goal is to lift the Hero System upon their proverbial shoulders and carry it into a bright, shiny future where some large untapped collection of new players will come flocking to the system).

 

I suspect that realization will never sink in for a lot of folks, so I'm the one wasting my time here. Moving on...

[Surrealone]

Our reason is keeping alive a system we are invested in, hopefully until such time it becomes vibrant again.

 

It is an activity based on love and hope, not economic sense or rationality.

Doc,

You really expect people here to give away their time/passion/energy/effort/skill to make things vibrant ... while forgoing economic benefit ... but do not expect the people who own the rights to Hero System to do the same?  Well that seems like a strange double-standard.  Why on earth would anyone give so much ... for nothing (no upside) ... if Hero System's owners won't?  

 

I'll tell you what -- once Hero System has been placed into the public domain like Linux was ... then I'll donate my time/effort/experience to it like I did in the days of v0.99 Slackware Linux (which is the -original- Linux distribution) where you had to cross-compile your kernel.  Until then, Hero System's owners have taken a for-profit angle ... and, thus, have led by example.  If donated effort and fan-based, Linux-like momentum and community-building is what the owners want, then they should follow the Linux model.  But if big-publishing, Microsoft-like licensing is the model they want to use, well, then it's clear they want a profit-driven, not community-driven endeavor ... and you should respect it. 

 

I see anything I might produce as a "break-even leader."

Vondy -- I appreciate your honesty on this.  I'll need this as a reference for Tasha and Christopher in a moment.

 

 

Who in the world said that?

​... snip ...

The more demand for product there is, the more likely there will be more produced. Also, if you have the talent for writing. Write some content, sell it and make some money and boost your favorite game. Talk Hero up on Social Media, ask Kickstarter creators that are creating multi system supplements for Hero Support (I do this and have seen more than one project add Hero System support after people on this board also asked for it). Basically we have to be evangelists of the system. Because, if we don't play and get others to play then what life hero has left will go away due to lack of support.

Tasha,

Who?  A number of people have suggested contribution without so much as an utterance regarding economic upside (or, almost as bad, simply breaking even financially-- see Vondy's quote, above).   We just did the math several pages back on how much it costs to produce material -- especially where art is involved -- and pretty clearly determined that the investment is heavy and the return amounts to a hope for 'breaking even at best' (to paraphrase Vondy).  And if you weren't 100% sure after that, well, Doc's quoted post, above, pretty much spells it out in 'let's all pitch in for the benefit of the commune'.  (Note:  No negative implication intended by 'commune';  perhaps I should use the term kibbutz, instead, since it doesn't tend to carry negative connotations?)

 

What you said about demand, talent, social media, and evangelism ... is something I'm now going to paraphrase back to you as -I- perceive what you wrote (when factoring in your words AND the reality of the situation).  Ready? Here goes:

 ​"Since there's inadequate demand for Hero System due to lack of solid marketing/effort by the current owners, we need more demand so that more things are produced which we can then consume. You can become an indentured servant beholden to the copyright licensors if you have talent you'd like to offer up in the form of content for profit, or you can simply give things away, but in either case you'll be lucky to break even (per Vondy reference). Use social media to perform free marketing work for Hero System since the current owners don't really bother (or bother enough), as they'd love to have you do free marketing work for them -- or anything free for them, really.  Basically, we have to do marketing/evangelism for Hero System since no one else is -- and despite that being actual 'work', no one's going to pay you for it.  The owners of the copyright(s) will see financial gain if your efforts yield community interest and an uptick in sales due to renewed vibrancy, but you shouldn't expect anything for your effort other than the 'reward' of being able to give them yet more of what's yours (in this case money) by purchasing more content they -might- deign to use an influx of cash to produce.  Maybe.  If Hell freezes. For a decade.  In your lifetime."

 

​Ok, so I know that's a bit harsh, but it's what you've basically suggested when one factors in your desire to see improvement, your suggestion that the community carry the load, the lack of financial upside for the performers of the 'work' associated with carrying that load, the lack of demonstrated interest in marketing Hero System by the copyright owners, and the fact that the copyright owners gain from any increase in sales resulting from the labor of others (whether it be licensed content or guerilla marketing on social media).

 

​In a nutshell:

You, yourself, have said the very sort of thing you asked me 'who' was saying it.  Things that make me go, 'hmmm'...

 

 

Like I've said before: if you want the game to prosper, what are you doing about it?

 

Christopher,

I'm investigating how the game propsering ... translates to the copyright owners prospering ... without those doing the work necessarily prospering (or even breaking even in terms of invested time and money).  I'm also calling into question the for-revenue state of the copyrighted material ... and drawing attention to the fact that anyone who suggests donating time/effort/labor (be it testing, ideas/input, artwork, editing labor, guerilla marketing on social media, etc.) from the community ... should probably be demanding the copyrighted material be placed in the public domain in very same breath.

 

​If the game, the copyright owners, and the community are going to prosper ... they should do it together.  If they can't do it together but are willing to flourish instead of prosper, then the public domain approach is a clear path forward.

 

l'll donate my time/effort if the copyright owners will donate the representation of theirs (the copyrighted material) to the public domain ... so that it's all donated, not-for-profit, community-driven work and benefit.  But something tells me the copyright owners don't want a community-driven approach - because if they did, the material would already be in the public domain like Linux is -- wouldn't it?!

 

Say you can't create much, have no artistic talent, or writing ability.  You can back kickstarters, you can talk to gamer friends, you can run a game at a CON or at the local stores, you can put up fliers to get people to come learn how to play on your own.  You can find people with talent and help them get their product out.  You can post promoting rather than degrading stuff around the internet about Hero.

 

Or you can sit at a keyboard and complain on a forum.

Christopher,

​My paraphrased translation:

"Say you lack talent, you can still put up your money despite the copyright owners not bothering to do effectively free PoD capability work, here; you can do free marketing work for Hero System with your gamer friends or at CONs or local stores; you can spend your own money on paper and ink for fliers and then give up your free time to do marketing work for Hero System by posting those fliers on your own, and you can even recruit talented individuals to become indentured servants to the copyright holders while they wait for a return on their investment if it ever comes.  You can put a positive marketing spin on the situation (for which you won't be paid) instead of calling it out in brutally honest fashion (for which you also won't be paid).

 

Or you can sit at a keyboard and type things I don't agree with -- and I'll use verbs with negative connotations to describe such acts in a belittling fashion because I think your time/effort/skill/investment is something you can and should just give away (unless you produce licensed works) even though the copyright owners don't just give away the fruits of THEIR labor.  I hope you won't notice my double-standard regarding you giving things away while the copyright owners don't, by the way ...but if you do, I'll likely reuse that 'complain' verb to describe you and others like you."

 

​Now of course you didn't write all that ... and again, it's harsh.  But that is what your suggestion amounts to when you couple it to the reality of what you're saying.  Flyers cost money; marketing (in stores, social media, etc.) is labor;  monetary and labor investments on the parts of individuals should see upside if the copyright owners stand to benefit from it -- and they do.  After all, it's only fair that if they do, so should the people making such investments.

 

To All:

Personally, ​I'm tired of the double-standard being swept under the rug by idealists -- which is why I say that if we want to be idealistic about it, then lets all hold hands together (including the copyright owners) and jump into donated effort toward a public domain endeavor together.  That's actual idealism without double-standards between laborers and copyright owners -- because there'd be no more copyright, no more licensing, no more upside; it'd be pure effort with production being the 'reward' in which everyone shares.  The copyright owners contribute the 'core' while the community contributes the 'muscle' that causes the core to expand, flourish, and see vibrancy again.

 

Oh yea, and Hero System would be free in terms of the cost to consume, too.  Guerilla market THAT effectively on social media, on gaming sites, at CONS, in stores, etc. and I bet you'd see an explosion of consumption and use of it to form campaign scenarios and the like.  Instead of mom&pop gaming offerings each doing their own thing, they might very well converge on using Hero System as the basis ... offering a level of familiarity as people move from one mom&pop game built on top of Hero ... to another.

 

That's the Linux model folks -- plain and simple.  If you want to suggest people contribute in some non-monetary fashion and actually be taken seriously... then the first people you need to convince to contribute ... are the copyright owners ... specifically to provide the material to which effort/labor can be married without concern for upside. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

For some, the chance to complain and sit hoping things come to them trumps ambition and making things happen.  Its a sort of societal divide that's getting bigger and bigger in the modern west.

[ghost-angel]

Not everything is done for money... Or just for money.

 

Though my block list has grown today... so there's that.

[Markdoc]

Side note:

 

I believe that Monte Cook Games may become more of a direct comparison to Hero Games, which will make it interesting to track (to whatever extent we can) how they perform. Post-The Strange, they broke out their core rules (the Cypher System) so that you could create your own worlds. In their latest Kickstarter, they are creating add-on books of additional settings. Sounds a lot like Hero System + setting.

 

Yeah, it's one reason I said Monte Cook games was a better comparison than FFG. I chose Green Ronin because of M&M obviously. Both make the point - which is that neither Superheroes nor generic rules are an apparent hindrance to sales.

 

cheers, Mark

[pinecone]

Yeah, it's one reason I said Monte Cook games was a better comparison than FFG. I chose Green Ronin because of M&M obviously. Both make the point - which is that neither Superheroes nor generic rules are an apparent hindrance to sales.

 

cheers, Mark

I agree, Hero could still be an active, growing concern, but tactics would need to change.

 

There are (IMO) some systemic "issues" that Might be roadblocks, but that does not matter unless product starts getting made.

[Vondy]

Any interest in:

 

Commando-hero level support for UNTIL or PRIMUS? Agent-level adventures, scenarios, etc? The (Silver) Avengers and a lot of CU supers are easy to "edit down" to be suitable for this kind of play. Its essentially a DC: TAS level of play, and overlaps with that genre pretty easily. It would also present lower-powered and simply built versions of supers. One easy set up would be: UNTIL: SPECIAL PROJECTS.

 

Mythos Hero. I've had an ongoing campaign, "big damned heroes," which is about a reality show crew that focuses on investigators pursuing conspiracy theories, folklore, tabloid headlines, urban myths, UFOs, and the like... on camera and for the ratings! The Dragon and Nagas from the Mystic World book were involved.

 

Its would be urban fantasy support (albeit a bit zanier), but with MHI out there I don't know if it wouldn't be too much thematic overlap. One thing I would do is present mystic rites, etc, as skills or talents with an appendix in the back with mechanical break-downs for those who wanted them.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think an overall reboot of Super Agents could be a good idea, its a very dated product and there's probably value in putting out a simple "here's how to get into super agents" as well as lots of references to variations (super cops, agents of S.H.E.E.S.H. Supernatural Monster fighters, etc) that could be examined.  Then adventure ideas, at least ten short ideas and one or two adventures.

[Vondy]

I think an overall reboot of Super Agents could be a good idea, its a very dated product and there's probably value in putting out a simple "here's how to get into super agents" as well as lots of references to variations (super cops, agents of S.H.E.E.S.H. Supernatural Monster fighters, etc) that could be examined.  Then adventure ideas, at least ten short ideas and one or two adventures.

 

What you are describing is a genre book as opposed to a setting / campaign book.

 

I would rather work on an "Agents of UNTIL" campaign detailing a special project, or an UD unit in a major world city.

 

Something that has a clear setting, context, and narrative thrust people can just run.

 

An appendix for the super-agent genre might fit, but I don't want to work on a genre book.

 

That is, from where I'm sitting, "more of the same."

[Christopher R Taylor]

I get what you're saying.  Maybe just a straight up Super Cops or Agents of U.N.T.I.L. campaign book then? Then notes on how you could use this for other similar concept campaigns.  I think there's a market out there for such a book, especially if its presented in an easy-to-load style and approach.

 

I'm moving more toward that with my Jolrhos Fantasy Hero project.  Once all the foundation sourcebooks are done, the "Player's Handbook" and "DM Guide" will be presented as a stand-alone fantasy game using the Hero system rather than a supplement for how to use Hero as fantasy in this setting.  Stripped down mechanics in the player book for combat and building stuff and then people can use the Hero books for the more detailed stuff.

[Hyper-Man]

I know that I would be first in line to buy a "HERO System Game Master Guide" if it ever got published. 

 

I think such a book could be a great seller.  It could even contain references to the existing 6e 1&2 tombs as well as Champions and Fantasy Hero Complete.

 

HM

[sureshot73]

I still think it's the complexity of the system. Not simply presentation that is the cause of where Hero Games is at. I might be wrong and want to be proven wrong I'm not holding my breath. 

 

You want to get Hero Games back on track.

 

Release a book like Savage worlds explorers edition for a cost of between 10-20$. Not a Sidekick version offer all the rules in a smaller easier to use format. No tomes the size of textbooks. 

 

Second admit that maybe it might be time to redo or streamline the system. I get that some don't like rules lite. But enough of gamers have voted with their wallets and said no to system. My proof the company is in trouble. You can deny all you want the evidence is right in front of you. If you can offer the system as is. So much the better. If not it might be time time to try something new.

 

 

Making the current or next edition a profitable one. Is a must. Goodwill of gamers is nice and all. That don't pay the bills.

 

Fourth don't expect or assume fans to take up the slack. I like the system. I'm not going to bend over backwards to save it. At least for free or without any guarantee of making a profit. My times is precious and I'm not going to waste it on what seems like a lost cause.

[phoenix240]

Is the idea to drop Genre books entirely?

[Tholomyes]

The main issues I see are two-fold. The first is that HERO is a toolkit system. Beyond books that have already been printed, such as Champions Powers or the Fantasy Hero Grimoire, there's not a whole lot that can be added on the rules-side to compare with the type of supplemental material that systems like D&D or Pathfinder can put out to add more content, and even with those books, it's not new content, just an easily accessible set of pre-built powers. Thus Setting and Premade adventure books are really the easiest way to keep producing content, and those types of books require a greater level of art direction and cohesion to do well, which can be more prohibitively expensive.

 

The second issue is that HERO is a difficult system to get into without someone (usually the GM) who knows the system incredibly well, and even then it asks a lot of the players. This doesn't do well for groups that are completely new to the hobby. However, I think there are ways to make HERO, in it's current iteration more approachable. Flipping through my Champions book, I noticed the "Superhero Gallery" section. I had completely forgotten that it existed, but it would be a perfect way to introduce the system in an approachable way, while highlighting the strengths of customization, without asking players to struggle spending hours making a character from scratch. And it's stuck in the back of a sourcebook. I don't know the costs of such a thing, but I think a "Beginner's Box" would be great as an introductory product, which would have a simplified rulebook, a character archetypes booklet, which would have similar "Some assembly Required" archetypes with some suggestions on ways to tweak the special effects as desired, as well as an introductory adventure (and possibly a GM screen, though for the sake of price-point I could see not having one). While I don't necessarily agree that a Rules-Light(er) direction is what HERO needs (HERO has it's niche; giving that up to fight for ground with Mutants and Masterminds or FATE or whichever other systems I don't think will help), I think such a beginner's entry product would accomplish a lot of the benefits of such a HERO-Lite direction. The main issue would be getting it at a price point that's competitive enough, without squeezing Hero Games' budget. 

[Vondy]

Is the idea to drop Genre books entirely?

 

I don't think so. But, there are a ton of available genre books out there already. Those are great (and available but PDF and could be POD with very little effort), but like the system books, they try to cover an entire genre and its sub-genres. You still have to distill them down to a setting, campaign, or adventure.

 

We do have setting books from Hero, but those don't have much in the way of adventures and campaigns to use with them. The reasons for that have been discussed. A big piece of that is that Hero supports numerous genres, several of which have several settings. Champions, alone, has three sub-genre books, a sub-sub genre book, three cities, two agency / organization books, and villain books. Then you have at least two fantasy settings, a space setting, etc.

 

But, if you look at UNTIL (or VIPER), they present source materials and a swath of "stubs" about different campaign styles you could theoretically run. They are trying to salable to a broad swath of do-it-yourself-ers who will use the books in numerous ways. They seek to be all things to all men (and the lady folk). Sometimes people just want to be told what to do, or given a clear, tested recipe.

 

Genre books are great for experienced Hero GM, or even an experienced old-school GM, who is used to building their own games and worlds. Its not so great for newbies. For me, I'd like to produce a ready-to-run campaign book that says "use the following default settings, use the following design perimeters for characters (or the example pre-gens), these are the assumed mood and tone and tropes, now run the following 3-4 plots."

 

A lot of the old D&D adventures, etc, sucked, but they gave fledgling GMs a floatation device until they learned to swim. I think Hero could benefit from that, too. Heck, want people to use the Tukarian Age? Write an awesome, high production Tukarian campaign!

[Tasha]

I still think it's the complexity of the system. Not simply presentation that is the cause of where Hero Games is at. I might be wrong and want to be proven wrong I'm not holding my breath. 

 

You want to get Hero Games back on track.

 

Release a book like Savage worlds explorers edition for a cost of between 10-20$. Not a Sidekick version offer all the rules in a smaller easier to use format. No tomes the size of textbooks. 

 

Second admit that maybe it might be time to redo or streamline the system. I get that some don't like rules lite. But enough of gamers have voted with their wallets and said no to system. My proof the company is in trouble. You can deny all you want the evidence is right in front of you. If you can offer the system as is. So much the better. If not it might be time time to try something new.

 

 

Making the current or next edition a profitable one. Is a must. Goodwill of gamers is nice and all. That don't pay the bills.

 

Fourth don't expect or assume fans to take up the slack. I like the system. I'm not going to bend over backwards to save it. At least for free or without any guarantee of making a profit. My times is precious and I'm not going to waste it on what seems like a lost cause.

 

Have you seen Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete?

[sureshot73]

I have. It's a start but not enough imo. If some dislike the complexity and crunchiness as long as it's a factor. Even if presented in a easier format. Will still be a turn off. Right now they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

[Vondy]

Let's be frank, for all of our bitching, Hero is still here and we do have a slow stream of new products coming out. Printing and storing books is expensive. POD may be a solution. That is for Jason to decide. Think he should go that route? Politely and respectfully mail him about it instead of castigating him in what amounts to public.

 

And let me remind you, when Hero really was dead before (and its not now), Jason was one of the people who resurrected it. Give the man his due. If you aren't contacting him with and idea and taking a risk, and even if you are, remember, what we do still have is here because he's carrying it.

 

I have a different way of using Hero than Steve does (I'm less fiddly), but those differences are mostly nuance. The man put a ton of life and development into the game, and did the work of three men. And I like 80% of what he introduced, which is pretty fricken fantastic. He deserves respect for what he accomplished.

 

Remember, Steve wrote most every damned thing we got (which other books from Darren and crew), and my favorite books have his (or Darren's) name on it. His 5e and 6e efforts were goddamned Homeric. Yes, I point out we didn't get adventures and campaign books, but that's because we got tons of "higher level" books. Steve wrote two rules-sets, a load of rules expansions and pregen books, a half dozen genre books, and how many settings books?

 

What do people expect? Miracles? The economy in general (and market in specific) collapsed before any substantial campaign and adventure support came out. Steve has to eat. If he's not getting a paycheck here, he's got to go find one somewhere else. But, in the end, campaign and modules books are narrower in scope and can be more discreet in size. There is no reason, with a little direction from Hero, those can't be produced third party.

 

But, for all the crap I've given Steve over the years over what are really stylistic and character design differences, the man is a writing machine and a Hero savant. He, Darren, Jason, and co. don't deserve to be castigated for the fans' personal frustrations - especially if some fans can help in at least one department!

[Christopher R Taylor]

Have you seen Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete?

I don't think he even really cares.

[ghost-angel]

Vondy is right, for the lack of direct DOJ products, Hero isn't nearly as dead as it was in the mid 1990s....

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's something people without some age and perspective don't get.  Hero was putting NOTHING out in the mid 90s and then started work on another entirely different game so, yeah.  This is not what I'd prefer (lots of new official product attracting customers) but its not as bad as its been.

[Surrealone]

Not everything is done for money... Or just for money.

 

Though my block list has grown today... so there's that.

 

True.  However, the fact that Hero System is copyrighted instead of in the public domain ... tells you what it's about.

 

Heaven forbid someone point out the double-standard of expecting the community to donate time/materials/effort without upside (and, at best, a faint hope of breaking even) ... while failing to levy the exact same expectation on the copyright owners.  Gotta block that!  (Frankly, I'm unsurprised.)

[Vondy]

True.  However, the fact that Hero System is copyrighted instead of in the public domain ... tells you what it's about.

 

Heaven forbid someone point out the double-standard of expecting the community to donate time/materials/effort without upside (and, at best, a faint hope of breaking even) ... while failing to levy the exact same expectation on the copyright owners.  Gotta block that!  (Frankly, I'm unsurprised.)

 

I'm not sure how a third-party product with profit sharing amounts to "donate."

 

Jason hasn't asked anyone for donations of any kind. 

 

Some fans may choose to do that on their own, but Hero hasn't asked them to.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm not sure how a third-party product with profit sharing amounts to "donate."

 

Yeah its a business option, you earn money.  I don't donate my work, I sell my work and Hero gets a bit for the licensing.