Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Vondy]

I also thought it was weird that running for heroic level games are still powers not skills.

 

Steve loves showing away with fancy and fiddly power constructs. 

 

But, the Universal Skill is really just a variation on the Universal Translator Talent.

 

And, there are some good skill-hacking options in TUS that don't use powers at all.

[Ninja-Bear]

Steve loves showing away with fancy and fiddly power constructs.

 

But, the Universal Skill is really just a variation on the Universal Translator Talent.

 

And, there are some good skill-hacking options in TUS that don't use powers at all.

The more you talk about TUD, the more I need to check it out.

[Vondy]

The more you talk about TUD, the more I need to check it out.

 

Its one of my favorite books. But, I'm a skill money, so I'm biased.

 

My groups have always been big on "flavorful background skills" so we use the option where you pay one price for X skills at X roll.

 

So "Eclectic Interests 13-" would give you 6-8 knowledge skills at (INT Roll) for 12 points (there's a table to reference).

[L. Marcus]

... Homo sapiens, my butt! We should call ourselves Skill Monkeys!

[Ninja-Bear]

I swear I typed TUS!

[Ninja-Bear]

My biggest problem is figuring which skills belong in a profession. I wouldn't mind prebuilt packages for common comic book jobs.

[phoenix240]

I swear I typed TUS!

Weird thing: but until just now when I looked back. I would have sworn in court that I read "TUS" in your post. 

[phoenix240]

My biggest problem is figuring which skills belong in a profession. I wouldn't mind prebuilt packages for common comic book jobs.

Resurrecting some of the Package Deals from 4th might help? 

 

Thinking along those lines there is a great deal of prebuilt stuff for Hero. Its just scattered around and spread out. Would there be much interest in some compiled and updated "stuff" books maybe split up by broad categories like, just spit balling, Past, Present and Future? The books might have lists with just a basic summation of what the items does, any play pertinent notes and a point cost for Superheroic games, equipment pools and similar situation, perhaps a suggest monetary cost too with more details write ups later with Power(s) Ads and Lims, etc for tinkering and inspiration. If that's not enough to fill out a good sized books they could also include relevant information for constructing items for their specific era both in Hero System terms and general information like suggested "tech levels". 

[Vondy]

My biggest problem is figuring which skills belong in a profession. I wouldn't mind prebuilt packages for common comic book jobs.

 

Both Pulp Hero and Dark Champions are loaded with professional packages.

 

The Pulp Hero ones are more suited to four-color comics, IMO.

 

But, that may not cover what you have in mind, either. Name some!

[Christopher R Taylor]

My Fantasy Hero setting has both racial and professional packages, I find them a good idea, and I liked how 4th edition did it. Forcing players to sacrifice creativity and flexibility for a set block of abilities worth a small reduction in cost seems reasonable to me.

[Markdoc]

A couple of points.

 

One of the nice things about Hero is it's not either/or.

A character with "Archeology 15-" can exist in the same game as a character with  "Mediterranean History, 12-, Etruscan Archeology 12-, Bronze Age Cultures 11-". The first is a knowledgeable generalist, the second a specialist. What type you play depends on the game, your group, their playstyle, and your preferences. 

 

Secondly, while as GM, I would be happy with either presentation, I have long used "Professional Skill Modifiers" that function the same way as "Linguist" or "Jack of all trades". They give a -1 to the purchase cost for related skills (basically, it is kind of the "Unified power limitation for skills". That's there so that the skill monkeys who want lots of skills don't get spanked so hard by the cost.

 

Additionally, I have put together for quick games cheap packages with a list of skills and (occasionally) talents and just say "If you want to be an X, just pick 10 points from this list". None of these suggestions to changing skill use are restrictive: a player who wants can design more precisely, but a limited range of choices can be a very good starting point for a new player.

 

cheers, Mark

[bluesguy]

I'd say it's RPTools. Hero Combat Manager is not a virtual table top (VTT) system, so it does not present maps like this, etc.

HCM is not a VTT system. It helps a GM manage the combat. There isn't anything stopping you from using a VTT in combination with HCM.

 

EDIT: I should say that HCM does not do this now. I can't speak for the future.

The product road-map does not include VTT.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's there so that the skill monkeys who want lots of skills don't get spanked so hard by the cost.

 

I used to use Elemental Control for that, but its the same basic effect; I like your solution.  You build a character like Batman and he ends up costing the same as Superman just to know a buncha stuff.

[Vondy]

That's there so that the skill monkeys who want lots of skills don't get spanked so hard by the cost.

 

I used to use Elemental Control for that, but its the same basic effect; I like your solution.  You build a character like Batman and he ends up costing the same as Superman just to know a buncha stuff.

 

I've found the combo skill option for backgrounds in the TUS is fair and workable.

 

Being liberal about the expert skill enhancer (I allow any skill that fits the concept, not just background skills) also works pretty well.

 

And, when you hit 20+ points in related skills, Universals start to make sense.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok Vondy here is a list I found years ago.

 

Doctor

Programmer

Reporter

Security

Detective

Jack-of-all-trades

Lawyer

Engineer

Diplomat

Locksmith

Cop

Martial Artist

Tycoon

Scientist

Linguist

Thief

Soldier

Athlete

Salesman

Teacher

Actor

Spy

Mercenary

Gymnast

Politician

Inventor

Musician

Con Man

Pilot

Explorer

Celebrity

Mechanic

Artist

Gambler

Driver

 

(list from Random Character Generator by Dave Mattingly)

 

Now some are easier to write up. Lawyer is suggested as PS and KS Lawyer and perk.  Doctor not too bad either except you must by Paramedics because AFAIK in RAW, PS cannot duplicate an existing skill.

[L. Marcus]

A physician would ideally have Paramedics, but also PS: Physician (or whatever the individual's specialty is) to make correct diagnoses and treat ailments, and SS: Medicine (or another specialty) to understand the science behind it all.

[Simon]

A physician would ideally have Paramedics, but also PS: Physician (or whatever the individual's specialty is) to make correct diagnoses and treat ailments, and SS: Medicine (or another specialty) to understand the science behind it all.

That's actually part of the problem that I (personally) have with the whole Skill system -- it's WAY too complex and granular.  You explain exactly that to a new player and their eyes glass over before you've finished the reasoning behind "PS: Physician" -- and they've likely moved on to a different system.

 

"My character is a physician" -- great, take a generic skill called "Physician" with the roll representing how good of a physician your character is.  That's it.  When a situation comes up in-game that may test your character's skill (someone in need of immediate care, medical knowledge, etc.), you make your roll.

 

"My character is an EMT" -- great, take a generic skill called "EMT"  with the roll representing how good of an EMT your character is.  That's it.  If there's a situation where either the EMT or the Physician could apply their knowledge, the GM can decide on any bonuses or negatives as appropriate (e.g. the EMT is likely better at shock trauma treatment and stabilizing a patient than the physician is...whereas the physician is better at more specific or longer term treatments)

 

For the amount of impact that Skills have on a campaign and general in-game playtime vs. combat, they're vastly over-complicated (again, IMO).  If you happen to be involved in one of the rare campaigns which are more skill-focused (I prefer these, personally), the focus on skills means that the campaign is much more story-oriented...making the mechanics of less importance than the story itself, which again should move you away from a complicated, granular skill system and towards one that allows for easier, more seamless storytelling.

[phoenix240]

I think it really comes down to playstyle. I've played and run Hero games that were very skill focused and if someone Physician character was a oncologist or a cardiac specialist (for example) made a difference. This can be particularly important in a game where the PCs all share a general profession like doctors or scientists. But there are plenty of games where PS Physcian and maybe a license to practice Perk would be enough to represent doctor. So I think ability to turn the granularity up and down is a benefit not a bug but perhaps one that can be emphasized

 

Personally, I haven't had a great deal of trouble with players tuning out about the Skills and how they function and the enjoyed the ability to create varied characters like a doctor that mostly did research or even a quack that knows the basics but little more without handwaving a broad skill. But that's anecdotal and I tend to play with people that like granular skill system instead of broad sweeping skills. 

 

Did anyone have any thoughts on my suggestion for compilations of packages and equipment? Did it get lost the shuffle or just go over like a lead blimp?

[Simon]

Even in those campaigns that are highly skill-focused, I think you're better off having one character take a skill that they call "Oncologist" and another take a skill that they call "Cardiac Specialist".  The GM decides in a given situation if a skill roll is needed and, likewise, if the oncologist or the cardiac specialist would be particularly suited to it (or inept at it).  MUCH better (IMO) than saying "I know that it makes sense for the cardiac specialist to be able to tell a lot about a patient's health from their pulse, but you didn't buy SS: Pulse Reading").  

 

The level of granularity present in the skill system is one of the biggest detractors from the system (and storytelling) in my experience.

[Ninja-Bear]

Robotics also threw me off until science skills came out. I like hiw science skills is a blend of PS and KS skills.

[ghost-angel]

The problem I've always had with the Skill System is not the granularity so much as the lack of direction...

 

PS: Whatever should be default include all the SS/KS/etc Skills inside it's tree of knowledge. If you get to the point where you actually practice something, you should know all this stuff, forcing more points to be spent on essentially the same thing feels like forced redundancy. The only reason you buy a SS: Medicine is because you're aren't a Doctor, you're reflecting the same underlying knowledge without any of the professional level practice that comes with knowing how to do the actual job for a living.

 

I've never liked that to be a Doctor you'd have to buy 2-3 skills. Like Vondy, I like the idea that PS covers it all. That's what it's for.

 

The base system is also not particularly clear on how to make new skills, for one game it focused around various kinds of hackers so "Computer Programming" as the catch all failed; we broke it down to; Programming, Networking, Phreaking, Administration, but for a game that doesn't care, all that should easily fold up into one Skill, without invoking the "penalty for lack of specificity" BS.

 

Which brings us to the other problem with Skill Modifiers; modifiers for having a broad skill should only apply if a narrow skill is useful to the game, but the system does a poor job of explaining that, seemingly forcing characters into long, nearly useless, skill lists to feel like they know everything they want. I like the ability to zoom in and out with the Skill System, but there could be a few more paragraphs dedicated to how to use that to best effect.

[Simon]

I still fail to see how that adds to either gameplay or storytelling.

 

If you have a remarkably granular system with a brilliantly designed "fold up" structure so that you can pick just how fine-grained you want to go on any given skill...I don't see that helping you at all.  Quite the contrary, as it comes across as an attempt at a deterministic system for skills, which leads to things like "I know that it makes sense for your character with PS: Blacksmithing to be able to forge a sword, but you didn't purchase Weaponsmith, so you just can't seem to do it. If the system had intended for PS: Blacksmithing to cover making swords, they wouldn't have put in that other skill, now would they?"

In gameplay, you're looking at making the characters believable and playable...and overall to tell a good story that entertains the players (and GM).  Define what a given character does conceptually (i.e. "he's a doctor" or, for more specific campaigns, "he's a maxillofacial surgeon") and leave it at that. If you're worried about balance (and I have RARELY seen skills be unbalancing in the slightest), then have the GM place a premium on skills that are likely to be of significant use in the campaign and a discount on skills that are unlikely to come up (e.g. "There's not going to be too much call or opportunity for a potter in this campaign....but the forensic examiner is going to be called upon quite a bit.").

[phoenix240]

Even in those campaigns that are highly skill-focused, I think you're better off having one character take a skill that they call "Oncologist" and another take a skill that they call "Cardiac Specialist".  The GM decides in a given situation if a skill roll is needed and, likewise, if the oncologist or the cardiac specialist would be particularly suited to it (or inept at it).  MUCH better (IMO) than saying "I know that it makes sense for the cardiac specialist to be able to tell a lot about a patient's health from their pulse, but you didn't buy SS: Pulse Reading").  

 

The level of granularity present in the skill system is one of the biggest detractors from the system (and storytelling) in my experience.

I like having both characters have PS: Physcian and Paramedic (I'd say things that like taking pulses would fall under that and both could take a pulse and get basic information from it) and they'd be better at their specialties due to complimentary skill usage and gm discretion. "The cardiac specialist could probably tell more." 

 

But really my point is, preferences aside, is that Hero can handle both ( and other) approaches right now. That's what it makes it different from most system and, IMO, a great system toolkit. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Just a thought what if skill levels coukd be bought similar to combat skill levels? Something like occupation skills cost 5pts. but it covers more than traditional 3 pt skills?

[Vondy]

Just a thought what if skill levels coukd be bought similar to combat skill levels? Something like occupation skills cost 5pts. but it covers more than traditional 3 pt skills?

They can. 5e had a breakdown comparing combat to non-combat skills. I think the basic underlying principle and comparisons translate to 6e easily enough.