Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Ninja-Bear]

its not too obscure. Imagine the Champions Universe as a comic book universe. Champions Comics has been out for 70 years putting out stories. How would you build the rolep laying game version of this, how would you approach the product line and releases? What products would you put out? How would you brand it?

Perhaps like it was done. Series of supplements and adventures that you could use in YOUR world not in a Champions universe. It's funny, some people want an official version for a game which eapoused build your own.

[phoenix240]

its not too obscure.  Imagine the Champions Universe as a comic book universe.  Champions Comics has been out for 70 years putting out stories.  How would you build the rolep laying game version of this, how would you approach the product line and releases?  What products would you put out?  How would you brand it?

 

Well. I see the Champions Universe as it has been presented as fine for a rpg superhero universe. How would you see it done differently? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

 It's funny, some people want an official version for a game which eapoused build your own. 

 

 

The thing is, you can easily adapt something for someone else's superhero universe but people who are looking for a premade, established universe they can just run with have a harder time with generic materials.  This isn't about personal preference, its about sales and marketing.  Its easier to sell and market a brand rather than a generic nebulous "you fill in the blanks" to a much larger audience.

[Tasha]

Champions Universe is anything but generic. It's as detailed as The Inner Sea World Book (Paizo's Golarion master Gazetteer book). It has everything you could want out of a world book. I am REALLY not sure what you are envisioning that isn't in CU. IIRC even the Premade Champions characters (The team that is built at the level that PCs are). It MAY even have a sample campaign.

If you are looking for a RPG product that is selfcontained and is pick up off the shelf easy to play. Champions Universe and any superhero game just isn't the right vehicle. The Supers Genre needs the full toolkit or nearly all of the full toolkit to actually work. Supers is the hardest genre to use to teach people how to build characters and how to play. That's because of the Powers. Also Supers doesn't really lend itself to choose these off the shelf abilities and play. Perhaps that will be different once the Character Generation Deck is released.

Oh and CU IS being supported we will be getting a new Villains books full of Organizations by the end of the year. Also there are 2 or 3 other Champions supplements.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94419-news-from-high-rock-press/

[Christopher R Taylor]

Champions Universe is fine as a sourcebook.  But its not a game setting for people to jump into.

 

 

You can't pick up the Champions Universe book and start up a campaign, any more than you can start up a War of the Roses campaign by picking up Churchill's History of the English Speaking Peoples. It has all the info you need to build a campaign, but not the actual campaign.

 

If you are looking for a RPG product that is selfcontained and is pick up off the shelf easy to play. Champions Universe and any superhero game just isn't the right vehicle.

 

 

Exactly, and that's what would be good for Champions to have.  It woudl help with sales and help players get into the game.  An intro tutorial is helpful, but a campaign ready to go with all the GM needs to start running a game would be even better.  And that's what isn't out there.  Hero has been so focused on being generic its not a marketable product to most customers.  That generic stuff is terrific, I love it.  But it has to be more than just that to be a viable game company.

[phoenix240]

Champions Universe is anything but generic. It's as detailed as The Inner Sea World Book (Paizo's Golarion master Gazetteer book). It has everything you could want out of a world book. I am REALLY not sure what you are envisioning that isn't in CU. IIRC even the Premade Champions characters (The team that is built at the level that PCs are). It MAY even have a sample campaign.

 

If you are looking for a RPG product that is selfcontained and is pick up off the shelf easy to play. Champions Universe and any superhero game just isn't the right vehicle. The Supers Genre needs the full toolkit or nearly all of the full toolkit to actually work. Supers is the hardest genre to use to teach people how to build characters and how to play. That's because of the Powers. Also Supers doesn't really lend itself to choose these off the shelf abilities and play. Perhaps that will be different once the Character Generation Deck is released.

 

Oh and CU IS being supported we will be getting a new Villains books full of Organizations by the end of the year. Also there are 2 or 3 other Champions supplements.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94419-news-from-high-rock-press/

I have to agree. Champions Universe seemed the same as any other superhero setting books I've read. So I'm not sure what is being asked for in regard to improving its presentation as a setting. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Champions needs to be more than just a setting

 

"Its a great setting!"

 

Yes, but it has to be more than that, a setting isn't a campaign

 

"I can't see how you could improve it as a setting!"

 

....

[Hyper-Man]

What HERO needs is a detailed set of rules for GM's on how to 'dial in' the campaign rules so they can achieve the type of game they want to run.  In other words, give GM's the same type of structure that Player's have always had.  Presenting a particular campaign setting like Champions with specific campaign rules spelled would be a good thing as a baseline that could then be referred to when GM's want to 'change the dials'.  However, Champions is not the only genre or setting used by HERO.  The GM rules I am talking about need to be truly generic to really be useful.

 

HM

[Durzan Malakim]

Supers is the hardest genre to use to teach people how to build characters and how to play. That's because of the Powers. Also Supers doesn't really lend itself to choose these off the shelf abilities and play. Perhaps that will be different once the Character Generation Deck is released.

 

Oh and CU IS being supported we will be getting a new Villains books full of Organizations by the end of the year. Also there are 2 or 3 other Champions supplements.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/94419-news-from-high-rock-press/

 

I suggest teaching Champions/HERO System the same way you teach a kid how to build things with LEGOs: you buy some specific kits and let them build some familiar things first. Thanks to the ubiquity of D&D, people understand the concept of classes and a superhero archetype is kind of like a class. Let new players choose a class/superhero archetype and build around it as a template so they can focus on the fun part of the game: actually playing it. The game's first impression shouldn't be a series of unfortunate decision paralysis events. Hopefully, the upcoming character creation cards will make the generation process even easier.

[Joe Walsh]

What HERO needs is a detailed set of rules for GM's on how to 'dial in' the campaign rules so they can achieve the type of game they want to run.  In other words, give GM's the same type of structure that Player's have always had.  Presenting a particular campaign setting like Champions with specific campaign rules spelled would be a good thing as a baseline that could then be referred to when GM's want to 'change the dials'.  However, Champions is not the only genre or setting used by HERO.  The GM rules I am talking about need to be truly generic to really be useful.

 

Good idea. GURPS has "How to be a GURPS GM," so why not a How to GM volume for HERO?

[bigdamnhero]

I think if there was an official Champions setting put out...

 

Champions needs to be more than just a setting...

a setting isn't a campaign...

Indeed it isn't. But you've just spent half a dozen posts complaining about the lack of a setting. Now you want to talk about campaign books. I don't think you're intentionally moving the goalposts here, but don't blame us for responding to your actual words rather than what you may have really meant.

 

I would agree Champions doesn't really have much in the way of ready-to-run campaign books, aside from Champions Battlegrounds, Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth, and arguably DEMON. (Plus Alien Wars for SH.) Not a product I have much interest in personally, but I agree it'd be a good way to attract new players.

[bigdamnhero]

It's funny, some people want an official version for a game which eapoused build your own.

I think this is the key point. I'm a roll-my-own kind of GM myself, so Hero is perfect for my needs. And we've clearly been Hero's target audience for the last decade+. The question is are there enough GMs like us to support a game system these days? It also means Hero has a higher bar for entry than other games, because you have to understand the system well enough to build your own campaign before you can start playing.

 

But the two aren't mutually exclusive: you could put out some ready-to-play campaign material, just like most other systems do. Us do-it-yourselfers can still tinker and monkey around until we get it just the way we want it, or just mine it for ideas like I do with most campaign/setting books from other systems. GMs who don't have the time to do all that can just run it as written. And new players can look at it and understand how to build a Champions/Hero campaign. Win-win-win (assuming it's well-done).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Indeed it isn't. But you've just spent half a dozen posts complaining about the lack of a setting. 

 

 

No I haven't.  I've said the setting is not enough, that it has to be a campaign so we can sell it.  That it has to be more than just a history and characters, that the background alone doesn't work, that you have to have an intro and a way for GMs to start running games.  I've used every analogy I can think of comparing building a campaign using a history book vs one that is built for you.

 

I think this would be a huge help for Hero, to instead of having Champions be a setting and generic rules to be a complete campaign people can get into.

[Hyper-Man]

Good idea. GURPS has "How to be a GURPS GM," so why not a How to GM volume for HERO?

 

I'm not familiar with that book so I don't know if it deals with the areas I am referring to. I am thinking more in terms of how to predict the results of particular groups of choices on the old 'campaign ground rules' worksheets that used to be included with previous HERO editions.  More specifically, how to determine the maximum allowable levels of certain powers and advantages.  One example would be no more than 1 level of Penetrating for non-special things - exceptions being things like adamantium.  Get enough example of variations of limits like that defined for all powers and advantages and a HeroDesigner-like application would be useful.

 

HM

[Durzan Malakim]

No I haven't.  I've said the setting is not enough, that it has to be a campaign so we can sell it.  That it has to be more than just a history and characters, that the background alone doesn't work, that you have to have an intro and a way for GMs to start running games.  I've used every analogy I can think of comparing building a campaign using a history book vs one that is built for you.

 

I think this would be a huge help for Hero, to instead of having Champions be a setting and generic rules to be a complete campaign people can get into.

 

By Intro do you mean a sample adventure such as HEROES HAMPER HEIST! or something a bit more involved such as a White Wolf-like narrative? Given the LEGO-like nature of Champions/HERO System we might want to leave GMs some room to customize. 

 

This naturally and inevitably leads to mad-lib adventures.

 

"Agents of [villain-group] have attacked the [location] to steal the [mcguffin]. You have 30 minutes before the [threat] kills everyone!"

[Tasha]

I think this is the key point. I'm a roll-my-own kind of GM myself, so Hero is perfect for my needs. And we've clearly been Hero's target audience for the last decade+. The question is are there enough GMs like us to support a game system these days? It also means Hero has a higher bar for entry than other games, because you have to understand the system well enough to build your own campaign before you can start playing.

 

But the two aren't mutually exclusive: you could put out some ready-to-play campaign material, just like most other systems do. Us do-it-yourselfers can still tinker and monkey around until we get it just the way we want it, or just mine it for ideas like I do with most campaign/setting books from other systems. GMs who don't have the time to do all that can just run it as written. And new players can look at it and understand how to build a Champions/Hero campaign. Win-win-win (assuming it's well-done).

I am finding that I am not alone as a Hero GM, that the time and work required to build a campaign is a bit daunting. It leads to playing other systems that don't need that amount of preparation.

[Tasha]

I'm not familiar with that book so I don't know if it deals with the areas I am referring to. I am thinking more in terms of how to predict the results of particular groups of choices on the old 'campaign ground rules' worksheets that used to be included with previous HERO editions.  More specifically, how to determine the maximum allowable levels of certain powers and advantages.  One example would be no more than 1 level of Penetrating for non-special things - exceptions being things like adamantium.  Get enough example of variations of limits like that defined for all powers and advantages and a HeroDesigner-like application would be useful.

 

HM

I think that it would be more useful and would be a bigger draw to new GMs to have settings that defined those things up front. Then all of the supplements can use those Power levels, and other things like that as a baseline.

[Joe Walsh]

I'm not familiar with that book so I don't know if it deals with the areas I am referring to. I am thinking more in terms of how to predict the results of particular groups of choices on the old 'campaign ground rules' worksheets that used to be included with previous HERO editions.  More specifically, how to determine the maximum allowable levels of certain powers and advantages.  One example would be no more than 1 level of Penetrating for non-special things - exceptions being things like adamantium.  Get enough example of variations of limits like that defined for all powers and advantages and a HeroDesigner-like application would be useful.

 

I think that would be great for HERO.

 

How to be a GURPS GM's main thrust is taking the reader from "I have the core rules" to "I know how to design a GURPS campaign."  So, it covers things like you're talking about: setting campaign parameters, which bits to twiddle to give a more cinematic feel, how to handle high-powered campaigns, how to run combat with this feel or that, and so on. And it walks the reader through the process using extensive examples. Sprinkled throughout is insight and advice from the GURPS line editor about things that aren't always obvious to those new to the system. It's come to be considered essential reading for new GURPS GMs.

 

(Incidentally, a fan came up with the idea, proposed it, got it accepted, and wrote the main text, so... )

[phoenix240]

Champions needs to be more than just a setting

 

"Its a great setting!"

 

Yes, but it has to be more than that, a setting isn't a campaign

 

"I can't see how you could improve it as a setting!"

 

....

 

All right, let me try it this way. I don't understand the distinction you are drawing between the terms "setting" and "campaign". At least for me, its not as self evident as you seem to feel it is as the terms have been used as more or less synonymous in my experience. Could explain the difference you're drawing between them, please?

[phoenix240]

Indeed it isn't. But you've just spent half a dozen posts complaining about the lack of a setting. Now you want to talk about campaign books. I don't think you're intentionally moving the goalposts here, but don't blame us for responding to your actual words rather than what you may have really meant.

 

I would agree Champions doesn't really have much in the way of ready-to-run campaign books, aside from Champions Battlegrounds, Sharper Than A Serpent's Tooth, and arguably DEMON. (Plus Alien Wars for SH.) Not a product I have much interest in personally, but I agree it'd be a good way to attract new players.

 

So "campaign" basically means "modules" and "books of linked pre written adventures" possibly that advance some kind of over arching plot line? If that is the case, I'm fairly ambivalent about the issue. I got into Hero in part to get away from the metaplot style supplement treadmill found in game like the various Storyteller franchises. It doesn't really interest me but I can simply not buy them unless its becomes the total line focus. 

 

If that's not the case, then I'll see what people are talking about. 

[Cantriped]

Part of the miscommunication above stems from the fact that the terms 'campaign' and 'setting' are often spoken in the same breath. For example "Pathfinder Campaign Setting". In RPG parlance a 'campaign' is simply a series of related 'scenarios', and the 'setting' is wherever a scenario or campaign takes place.

In Fantasy Hero, ​The Turakian Age​ (aka Ambrethel) is the setting for Swords Against The Ravager (The Turakian Age 276), which is more or less the iconic/default Turakian Age campaign.

 

In this regard. Hero System 5th and 6th edition have a whole lot of Setting supplements, some of which provide quite a lot of depth to the settings they describe and provide plenty of fodder for creating your own campaign... However, there aren't very many Campaign supplements. We have a few first-party campaign supplements from 5th edition; like ​Villainy Amok and Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds​, but none for 6th edition that I am aware of.

[Spence]

All right, let me try it this way. I don't understand the distinction you are drawing between the terms "setting" and "campaign". At least for me, its not as self evident as you seem to feel it is as the terms have been used as more or less synonymous in my experience. Could explain the difference you're drawing between them, please?

 

So "campaign" basically means "modules" and "books of linked pre written adventures" possibly that advance some kind of over arching plot line? If that is the case, I'm fairly ambivalent about the issue. I got into Hero in part to get away from the metaplot style supplement treadmill found in game like the various Storyteller franchises. It doesn't really interest me but I can simply not buy them unless its becomes the total line focus. 

 

If that's not the case, then I'll see what people are talking about. 

 

Close, but not really.  A module or books of modules are exactly that.  Not a campaign. 

A full campaign is more than just a series of interlocking adventures, it is a grand adventure arc that for leveled games generally take the PC's from creation to retirement, 1st level to 18th and above.  Though there are some that end earlier. 

 

D&D 5th already has several:

Hoard of the Dragon Queen

The Rise of Tiamat     

Princes of the Apocalypse     

Out of the Abyss     

Curse of Strahd     

Storm King's Thunder

 

Pathfinder has more, 20ish, and even Call of Cthulhu has several to include Murder on the Horror Express and Trail of Cthulhu has Eternal Lies. 

 

 

Part of the miscommunication above stems from the fact that the terms 'campaign' and 'setting' are often spoken in the same breath. For example "Pathfinder Campaign Setting". In RPG parlance a 'campaign' is simply a series of related 'scenarios', and the 'setting' is wherever a scenario or campaign takes place.

In Fantasy Hero, ​The Turakian Age​ (aka Ambrethel) is the setting for Swords Against The Ravager (The Turakian Age 276), which is more or less the iconic/default Turakian Age campaign.

 

In this regard. Hero System 5th and 6th edition have a whole lot of Setting supplements, some of which provide quite a lot of depth to the settings they describe and provide plenty of fodder for creating your own campaign... However, there aren't very many Campaign supplements. We have a few first-party campaign supplements from 5th edition; like ​Villainy Amok and Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds​, but none for 6th edition that I am aware of.

 

Villainy Amok, Champions Battlegrounds and Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds are not campaign supplements. They are individual unrelated adventures that may be dropped into an existing campaign.   Just like D&D 5th's latest book Tales from the Yawning Portal. 

 

What Hero has never had was an actual Campaign. 

 

Now Hero will continue the same pattern on doing the same thing and expecting a different result. But other systems have understood that while everyone agrees that a custom campaign is fantastic, 99% spend their time running pre-built campaigns.

 

Savage Worlds is a generic rule-set that covers sword swinging fantasy to scifi to superheros and they have campaigns are called Plot Points where the PP contains not only setting information and custom char-gen information, but also a complete campaign.  Not only are there over a dozen different PP's from Pinnacle out there, but there are a dozen other companies producing unique settings with complete campaigns.  Acthung! Cthulhu is a detailed Setting for WW2 Cthulhu Horror.  It has multiple books covering the setting for both Savage Worlds and Call of Cthulhu 5th.  But it also has two detailed campaigns set in A!C.  Shadows of Atlantis and Assault on the Mountains of Madness.

 

Every GM I know pontificates on how pre-made campaigns suck and the custom campaign is the only way to go.  And then they sit down and run the latest D&D/Pathfinder/13th Age published campaign because they do not have time to build one.

 

In the end a campaign is a complete long term series of adventures leading to a major climatic end. 

Playing out Tolkien's War of the Ring was a campaign. 

 

Mutants and Masterminds pulled ahead as a Supers game through its campaigns. 

 

A campaign can be run as written or adjusted to personal taste.  But nothing can be done if it never exists.   Champions has an awesome detailed universe that 99% of gamers never experience because they simply don't have time to take 30+ years of stuff and create a coherent campaign.  

 

I fear Hero is on its last legs.    we are not in the position of Preaching to the Choir.  We are in the position where the Choir has convinced the Preacher they only need a Choir and others need not attend.  

[phoenix240]

Part of the miscommunication above stems from the fact that the terms 'campaign' and 'setting' are often spoken in the same breath. For example "Pathfinder Campaign Setting". In RPG parlance a 'campaign' is simply a series of related 'scenarios', and the 'setting' is wherever a scenario or campaign takes place.

In Fantasy Hero, ​The Turakian Age​ (aka Ambrethel) is the setting for Swords Against The Ravager (The Turakian Age 276), which is more or less the iconic/default Turakian Age campaign.

 

In this regard. Hero System 5th and 6th edition have a whole lot of Setting supplements, some of which provide quite a lot of depth to the settings they describe and provide plenty of fodder for creating your own campaign... However, there aren't very many Campaign supplements. We have a few first-party campaign supplements from 5th edition; like ​Villainy Amok and Fantasy Hero Battlegrounds​, but none for 6th edition that I am aware of.

 

Thanks, that clears things up. And I'll stick with my previous opinion then. 

[Tasha]

This is why I have been advocating the Adventure Path/ Plot Point campaign concept as a way to move forward. I lean toward Plot Point campaigns because of their flexability and ease of customization.

Setting is Champions Universe. With Millenium City, Vibora Bay, and others being specific places within the setting. Calling Golarion a "Campaign Setting" is saying that it's a Setting that you can use to place your Campaign within.

A Campaign is a series of interlocked Adventures. A Paizo Adventure Path is a Campaign, Pinnacle's Plot Point Campaigns are a Campaign. I would argue that there were a ton of Mini Campaigns written for 4e Champions. When DOJ took over, Steve decided that Adventures weren't worth the time they took to write as they didn't sell well. Though it appears that Paizo and Pinnacle turned that assumption on their heads with innovative versions of a campaign. 

[dsatow]

Personally, I think Champions needs more modules at this point.  There has to be a fine balancing act between providing new rules, new campaigns, and updating the current campaign source.  And when I mean updating the campaign source, I don't just mean making the characters valid with the current rules.  Modules should be created which are in the campaign universe which will spur new games with dangling plot threads and introduce new NPCs.  I think Pathfinder does this really well with the adventure paths and the Pathfinder Society.