Damage class

[Pattern Ghost]

220lbs is about right for a healthy male in their prime, of average strength and build (6' 180lbs) to be capable of lifting. This is what a score of 10 represents, what a healthy (for physical characteristics) adult in their prime should reasonably possess.

 

Bolding added so I can be a little pedantic.

 

First, does the system assume a male average person?

 

Second, your average build numbers may be a little off at 6' height and 180 lbs. The U.S. male average height is only 69.7" or  5' 9.7".  The average male height is only 5'8" worldwide, with the average female height at 5'4" and an average human height of 5'6".

 

So, no reason to assume that an average "person" at 5'4" to 5'8" is over an 8 STR.

 

That doesn't mean that 10s don't work either. I'm fine with 10s because it's a freaking game and it has to make some assumptions about a baseline. I don't really care too much about where the baseline is set. And as I said above, where did the all 8s thing in Hero come from anyway?

[IndianaJoe3]

So, for the Hero Historians in the audience: When did the 8s is an average person creep in? And is it still assumed in current publications?

 

Fairly early on (IIRC), but it's explicitly stated that, "average human" includes children, the elderly, and others who bring that average down. The average adult has 10s.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I believe the "normal people have 8s" thing is a system assumption or at least a published notion. My question is, when did it creep in? I don't remember it stated in any 4th edition stuff I had, though it could have been. (I think there was a normals book, Normals Unbound or something? that I didn't have).

 

So, for the Hero Historians in the audience: When did the 8s is an average person creep in? And is it still assumed in current publications?

It absolutely was not in the 4th edition and I dont remember it in the early 5th edition. I could look it up, but i'm thinking it came around 5th revised.

[Pattern Ghost]

For me, it seems easier to just use 10s as a baseline and mark down the deficient areas for those few stats that are somewhat mappable to the real world than to start with 8s when writing up a normal person. Of course, most normal people in campaigns are minor NPCs, and those don't need full write ups anyway.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Bolding added so I can be a little pedantic.

 

First, does the system assume a male average person?

 

Second, your average build numbers may be a little off at 6' height and 180 lbs. The U.S. male average height is only 69.7" or 5' 9.7". The average male height is only 5'8" worldwide, with the average female height at 5'4" and an average human height of 5'6".

 

So, no reason to assume that an average "person" at 5'4" to 5'8" is over an 8 STR.

 

That doesn't mean that 10s don't work either. I'm fine with 10s because it's a freaking game and it has to make some assumptions about a baseline. I don't really care too much about where the baseline is set. And as I said above, where did the all 8s thing in Hero come from anyway?

I'm going to agree with you here. I consider STR 10 the average for a male. I consider STR 7 the average for a female. I was being sexist and not considering females into the equation. But thats only regarding strength. All other characteristics being pretty close. I still contend that the average range is 8-12 and that most healthy adults should fall between that range (slightly less in strength for females)

[NuSoardGraphite]

It was in the original 5th edition. The average person is rated at all 8s. If I remember right, back in the 4th edition that was considered the incompetent normal. I no longer have my old 4th edition books to check.

[Pattern Ghost]

That sounds about right. Seems like having two separate baselines is a little counterproductive, so I never liked that take on things. Even if Hero is a bit biased in favor of super heroic scale, I like nice round numbers and don't see the need to run two scales. I'm fine with people tweaking the scale around, but adding levels of complexity to the base system is something I dislike.

[Outsider]

I always figured 'average' from effect in game more than from things like the lifting tables.

 

An average person can use a short sword effectively (at least as far as muscle was concerned... Non-familiarity had its own rules)

A strong, but not excessively strong one can use a broadsword effectively,

and so on.

 

So my figuring was that your average man was a 10.  An average man in his prime, or an older one who had a physical job, probably a 13.   A man with a stereotypical "strong" background, like a blacksmith, would be 15 at least, and it wouldn't be questioned if he bought an 18 or 20.  And so on.

 

On the other hand, I also am in the "Exceeding the NCM cap means you're exceptional, not that you have to be a demigod" camp for what NCM is, and I never liked the standard geometric lift tables for heroic level games (I used "you can lift and stagger a few steps with 10xSTR kg, but growth STR is still geometric")

[Hugh Neilson]

Sure, they spend points to rise above the average... hero.  The stats are a base level, this is what heroes start at and buy up from to show their distinction from others.  Bob has 17 Dex, he's much faster than the average heroic type.  Consider straight 10's to be an athletic type with no specialization who has a quick mind and charisma.  That's your baseline for building up from.

Except that few Heroic characters keep a 10 DEX or CON. Heroic types tend to exceed the norms anyway.

 

 

Indeed, the strength chart is what gives us our baseline. Most healthy adult males should be able to deadlift 200lbs. In my prime I could probably deadlift 300lbs and I didnt lift weights at all. At the age of 40, I was able to fireman carry the biggest guy in my class at the border patrol academy and he was 285lbs. I am 5'10 and was 200lbs at the time. I am a couch potato. I should be one of those guys with a strength of 8, yet here I am running around with closer to 12. I dont buy the average person is all 8 argument. It doesnt stand up to close examination.

As I read the "8 is average", it does not mean the average healthy adult male in his prime. It means average across the entire population. You note you could carry the big guy - was that viewed as "meh-no big deal" by your class? That would be the viewpoint on something the average person could do, as someone below average would probably not do well in the border patrol.

 

Also, beyond the baseline of Strength, I consider INT to be a solid baseline as well. I equate INT to real world IQ. Multiply INT by 10 to get IQ. This matches up with a 10 being equivalent to an IQ of 100 and an 18 being equivalent to an IQ of 180 which is Hawking and Einstein territory.

Your equating of INT to real world IQ does not make it a game rule. I would suggest Hawking and Einstein fall at the top end of the human range, not simply an above average score, and superhuman starts around 30, so you're missing a big chunk of the range. The IQ bell curve falls off differently than "every five points reflects a doubling". As well, nothing stops 8 being an IQ of 100.

 

This leaves aside any question of IQ, as well. IQ of 100 is set as a baseline. It can vary between countries (some years back, when our son was IQ tested, we were told he would be a few points higher in the US, where the baseline was set lower so the median would still be 100 - that gap does not seem to exist in the link below). The average varies considerably worldwide (and you have classified several nations as averaging to just above mental retardation in your own analysis - see https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Except that few Heroic characters keep a 10 DEX or CON. Heroic types tend to exceed the norms anyway.

Sure,but most keep near or at 10 INT and EGO, and many 10 STR if they are not using strength for attack.  So it varies.  I've built a lot of characters with lower than 10 in some stats, to represent being handicapped or weak or just a bit slow thinking.

[rravenwood]

To answer the question asked:

 

The concept of 8s in primary stats for average people is found all the way back in Espionage!, and carries through the heroic-level games of the time period (pre-4th edition; well, at least the ones I have handy: Justice Inc., Fantasy Hero, Danger International).  Champions 1st and 2nd editions just say that 10 is the "base value" (although Champions II presents a sample "normal" with all 10s, which tells us that 10 was seen as average), but 3rd edition Champions includes the reference to all 8s for average humans.  Hero System 4th edition mentions that "the average human has basic Characteristics of around 8-10", but the Sample Characters section presents someone with pretty much all 8s as "Incompetent" versus the "Normal" who has all 10s.

 

So, the idea goes back quite a ways in the history of the game, although it seemed to be intended for use with the non-superheroic side of things (its inclusion in the 3rd edition of Champions may have been an oversight, as the format of that edition of Champions was clearly modeled off the format used for Justice Inc., and portions of the text from JI seem to have been used as a starting point for the revised 3rd edition Champs text).

 

Of course, things having been done one way back in the day doesn't prevent anyone from doing things differently for their own game now!

[Tholomyes]

Except that few Heroic characters keep a 10 DEX or CON. Heroic types tend to exceed the norms anyway.

 

Even that isn't a universal, though. I tend to run games where the average damage from a normal attack (in Superheroic games) is about 12 STUN, after defenses. While 12, the number required to not be stunned by an average attack, is higher than 10, it's not by enough that a character with 10 CON would be useless (though I'll admit, in a perfect world, I'd tie stunning to Con rolls, rather than Con Score, but I haven't found a good way of House Ruling that). And Dex, with the removal of Figured characterisitics in 6e, doesn't need to have a baseline any higher than 10 to provide the same function. If every hero averages 23 DEX, while the lower end ones might have as low as 18, and the higher end ones might have as high as 28, there's no mechanical difference, in terms of initiative, of subtracting from that to get a baseline of 10, with many heroes choosing to go above that if they want better skills, but it not being as important to be above 10, just for initiative reasons. (Which is one of my greatest frustrations with the pregen characters in 6e: Sticking to that old paradigm makes characters who should have high Dex not as relevant, because Everyone has high Dex, and going against that paradigm means basically saying "These pregens are not representative of what PCs should be" which is kind of the point of pregens, for the most part)

[NuSoardGraphite]

To answer the question asked:

 

The concept of 8s in primary stats for average people is found all the way back in Espionage!, and carries through the heroic-level games of the time period (pre-4th edition; well, at least the ones I have handy: Justice Inc., Fantasy Hero, Danger International). Champions 1st and 2nd editions just say that 10 is the "base value" (although Champions II presents a sample "normal" with all 10s, which tells us that 10 was seen as average), but 3rd edition Champions includes the reference to all 8s for average humans. Hero System 4th edition mentions that "the average human has basic Characteristics of around 8-10", but the Sample Characters section presents someone with pretty much all 8s as "Incompetent" versus the "Normal" who has all 10s.

 

So, the idea goes back quite a ways in the history of the game, although it seemed to be intended for use with the non-superheroic side of things (its inclusion in the 3rd edition of Champions may have been an oversight, as the format of that edition of Champions was clearly modeled off the format used for Justice Inc., and portions of the text from JI seem to have been used as a starting point for the revised 3rd edition Champs text).

 

Of course, things having been done one way back in the day doesn't prevent anyone from doing things differently for their own game now!

My perception of a "normal" having a baseline of 10 probably comes from the fact that I started with the 4th edition.

[Hugh Neilson]

And Dex, with the removal of Figured characterisitics in 6e, doesn't need to have a baseline any higher than 10 to provide the same function. If every hero averages 23 DEX, while the lower end ones might have as low as 18, and the higher end ones might have as high as 28, there's no mechanical difference, in terms of initiative, of subtracting from that to get a baseline of 10, with many heroes choosing to go above that if they want better skills, but it not being as important to be above 10, just for initiative reasons. (Which is one of my greatest frustrations with the pregen characters in 6e: Sticking to that old paradigm makes characters who should have high Dex not as relevant, because Everyone has high Dex, and going against that paradigm means basically saying "These pregens are not representative of what PCs should be" which is kind of the point of pregens, for the most part)

I also found the maintenance of the old DEX levels, made mandatory by the link to CV (no combat-effective character could get by with an 8-10 DEX - maybe a mentalist) in 6e off-putting. It's clearly directed at reverse compatibility (ie make the new characters fit the EX model of the previously published characters). When the average character has 23 DEX, accepting you will act later and dropping DEX to 8 frees up quite a few points to make sure your later action is effective. Let's see...+1 OCV, +1 DCV, +2 DC's and +5 PD and ED to an otherwise identical 23 DEX character - I wonder who will win...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Yeah. I see you guys are still talking in terms of superheroes, even on the Fantasy Hero forums (23 Dex average, or average CV 8). Supers are not my baseline. Thats why a lot of my opinions on characteristics are very different from the majority.

[Alcamtar]

Do you consider DEX 23 and CV 8 outside the heroic range? You don't hit superhuman until DEX 30 according to 6e so that's still well within heroic range. In my games the average is a bit lower, probably 15-20. But it is really easy to hit CV 8. I'd peg average CV around 6-7, but once you add skill levels it's in the 8-10 range, so 8 seems like a pretty good approximation.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Do you consider DEX 23 and CV 8 outside the heroic range? You don't hit superhuman until DEX 30 according to 6e so that's still well within heroic range. In my games the average is a bit lower, probably 15-20. But it is really easy to hit CV 8. I'd peg average CV around 6-7, but once you add skill levels it's in the 8-10 range, so 8 seems like a pretty good approximation.

Outside, no. Near the top end, yes.

 

I am firmly stuck between the 4th and 5th editions of the game so my assumptions and prejudices stem from there. I adhere closely to NCM for genres where the characters are supposed to be human, even if they can be augmented via magic or technology or superscience. You dont see a lot of human characters in my Fantasy games with characteristics above 20. Certain characters might have one defining characteristic that sits between 21 and 25, but that will be about it. I have no issue with characteristics getting a boost from magic....its part of the genre after all...but that wont be their natural characteristic. I tend to encourage the development od skills over the inflation of characteristics. This is because I have always approached Hero from the perspective of mostly down to earth heroic level gameplay as opposed to the default assumption of very powerful superheroes.

[NuSoardGraphite]

My perspective on CV is probably a little different from some. I still play 5th edition, so I used derived CV. This means the characters in my games will have a natural CV, then they will have a total CV from Skill levels and Martial arts etc. I encourage my players to purchase both where it makes sense for the character. So in general "natural" CV will hover between 5 and 7, CSLs can apply....at least +2 was common in many of my games...then maneuver bonuses (and penalties) will apply situationally, so CV tended to end up around the 7-10 range.

 

I like the characters in my games to be human, but highly skilled combatants. It makes for fast and deadly battles at times because the characters have the CV to take on many foes, but characters dont have the raw characteristics to stand up to more than a few blows before being taken out. It creates a dynamic where DCV is of the utmost consideration and defensive maneuvers are invoked often.

[Manic Typist]

My HERO introduction was 5th (revised) in a fantasy game. I don't think I ever saw stats above 21, and that was a defining characteristic of whomever had that super high stat. 

 

I think the less people mistakenly equate HERO = Champions, the better.

[NuSoardGraphite]

My HERO introduction was 5th (revised) in a fantasy game. I don't think I ever saw stats above 21, and that was a defining characteristic of whomever had that super high stat.

 

I think the less people mistakenly equate HERO = Champions, the better.

I agree, but it aint gonna happen. Too many people are introduced to Hero via Champions. Hero has been a generic game for over 20 years at this point, yet people still assume Hero = Champions unless you specifically say otherwise.

[Kesedrith]

My HERO introduction was 5th (revised) in a fantasy game. I don't think I ever saw stats above 21, and that was a defining characteristic of whomever had that super high stat. 

 

I think the less people mistakenly equate HERO = Champions, the better.

I'm coming from this same place, except that I got my start with 2nd ed., "way back in the day."  In my heroic level games, I rarely have anyone take a characteristic above 18 to be perfectly honest.  Even in my "street level" super hero games for which I'm noted by players don't have characteristics going above about 25 terribly often.  Then again, it may be an issue of the maturity level of the players.  I say this because as I typed the first part, I remember that we regularly had "blast canon" characters who were nothing but defenses and their one super blast in the beginning.  Speeds ranged in the 7 - 8 range (even worked up rules for SPD of 12+ for someone who wanted to be a SPEEDSTER!! with a SPD of 14) and so forth.  Ten years later and we're all making much more generalized characters capable of lending a hand in situations other than combat, with speeds in the 3 - 5 range, and characteristics closer to normal human except for that "one defining characteristic."  To cut this short, sometimes I have to wonder if some of the "disagreements" in these discussions don't come from simple changes in play styles due to factors like how long you've been playing, age, and bare bones philosophy of what these games are about.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah. I see you guys are still talking in terms of superheroes, even on the Fantasy Hero forums (23 Dex average, or average CV 8). Supers are not my baseline. Thats why a lot of my opinions on characteristics are very different from the majority.

There are how many non-Super (much less Fantasy) sample 6e characters in the core books, again?

 

In Fantasy terms, pre-6e was worse. The warrior wants a 15 - 18 DEX for the OCV and DCV, while the Rogue wants an 18 DEX for the bonuses to his agility-based skills, so he ends up with a 6 OCV and DCV, right up there with the warrior. Meanwhile, the Wizard wants his spells to hit, so he`s building with a 15+ DEX.

 

I toyed with the idea of investing 90 points in DEX in a Fantasy Hero game - OCV 10, DCV 10 and 4 SPD, with 60 points left over to spend on other abilities, would be a pretty decent character. He won`t do huge damage, but he`s pretty tough to connect with - especially if he grabs a Shield for added DCV - and generally hits with his own attacks.

[Pattern Ghost]

There are how many non-Super (much less Fantasy) sample 6e characters in the core books, again?

 

9, including Randall Irons in the first book. Two are Fantasy.

[massey]

This thread has kind of gone all over the place.

 

As I see it, the term "average human" takes into account a pretty broad range of people.  You've got old people, sick people, teenagers, healthy adults, children, etc.  And so saying the "average person" would have 8s across the board really doesn't mean that much, because there is no perfectly average person.  Thus, PCs start at 10s because that's as good a starting point as any.

 

I'm an adult male, 6'1" and between 210 and 220 lbs, who has a desk job.  I can lift my own weight off the ground no problem.  I've got a strong back and strong legs, but my arms have never been all that strong.  There's no way I could bench press 75% of the weight I can lift off the ground.  My arms are long and skinny, and that makes the bench press difficult.  So while I've got more than a 10 Str as far as "pick something up and stagger with it a few steps", I have under a 10 Str for other types of lifts.  Personally, I'd just give myself a 10 and call it a day.  Adult male, somewhat larger than average, with a sedentary job.  Honestly it's not really that important to get background characters like that perfectly represented.  We don't need to know exactly what strength value Aunt May has.

 

I've always figured that an average, healthy adult is somewhere in the 8-12 range.  8-12 is not remarkable in any way.  A guy with a 12 Dex is one of the better players in the over-40 office basketball league.  He probably used to be a pretty good athlete.  The guy with the 8 Dex politely declines joining the basketball league, "I was never really very good at that".  And it's not that the first guy is great, or the second guy is terrible (their Dex roll is the same, after all).  The first guy is just a little bit better.  Somebody can have between an 8-12 and while the difference is noticeable, it's not really important.  A guy with an 8 Int is dumber than a person with a 12, but you're really just talking about the difference between a bumbling TV dad and his smarter, more attractive wife.

[NuSoardGraphite]

There are how many non-Super (much less Fantasy) sample 6e characters in the core books, again?

 

In Fantasy terms, pre-6e was worse. The warrior wants a 15 - 18 DEX for the OCV and DCV, while the Rogue wants an 18 DEX for the bonuses to his agility-based skills, so he ends up with a 6 OCV and DCV, right up there with the warrior. Meanwhile, the Wizard wants his spells to hit, so he`s building with a 15+ DEX.

 

I toyed with the idea of investing 90 points in DEX in a Fantasy Hero game - OCV 10, DCV 10 and 4 SPD, with 60 points left over to spend on other abilities, would be a pretty decent character. He won`t do huge damage, but he`s pretty tough to connect with - especially if he grabs a Shield for added DCV - and generally hits with his own attacks.

In a skill-centric game, you dont need to boost your characteristics. There are other ways of getting there. In my last Fantasy Hero game, there was one character with a Dex of 18 and she was an agile, acrobatic type fighter. The party theif had a Dex of 15 and opted for Skill Levels instead of more Dex. The party mage had a Dex of 12 and also opted for Combat Skill levels to make up the difference.

 

The players put points into skills instead of raw characteristics. They still performed very competently. Exceedingly so in some cases. (The theif character eventually turned his Skill Levels into Overall Skill Levels and became good at EVERYTHING)

 

If the players are confident that the NPCs they encounter wont routinely surpass them, they wont feel a need to inflate their characteristics. They'll place them where they think it will help them perform. And if you focus the game on skill use, players will put points into skill levels and directly into thos skills that prove most useful during play. Thats why the theif player in my campaign bought overall skill levels. He found that he was using nearly all the skills on his sheet on a regular basis and he found it easier just to put in the 10 points for the overall than increasing Dex and INT and PRE to cover them all.