Triggered Defensive Actions

[Surrealone]

I seem to recall that the verbiage of the Trigger advantage entails setting up a power that is activated later.  A conceptual key to this is the act of setting up the power (for later activation) ... an act that, by implication, takes time.  (Of course, I only have 5ER to look at and confirm this with -- since 6e is out of print and CC doesn't go into this kind of detail.)
 

Thus, to get a 'free action' via Trigger in the form of an attack of opportunity or defensive action, I'd expect an action to be spent for it (i.e. time to be taken setting it up) in advance (non-combat is fine) and allow only one, as it seems to get a bit bogus to spend numerous actions in advance of combat to get numerous free ones in combat.

[TheDarkness]

I have been playing with this a bit(not in game, playing with builds). I'm thinking, as others stated, that it should be done with maneuvers built through powers, as the maneuvers, as far as I can tell, are discounted, so it seems a bit cheesy to me to apply cost modifiers to alter them.

 

That way, the cost goes up pretty quickly, and so it becomes cost inefficient to abuse. That's my theory, anyway.

 

I'm actually thinking of messing around with just designing the maneuvers through like everything else, through powers, and not using the maneuvers table at all, aside from the freebies everyone has.

[Christopher]

I seem to recall that the verbiage of the Trigger advantage entails setting up a power that is activated later.  A conceptual key to this is the act of setting up the power (for later activation) ... an act that, by implication, takes time.  (Of course, I only have 5ER to look at and confirm this with -- since 6e is out of print and CC doesn't go into this kind of detail.)

 

Thus, to get a 'free action' via Trigger in the form of an attack of opportunity or defensive action, I'd expect an action to be spent for it (i.e. time to be taken setting it up) in advance (non-combat is fine) and allow only one, as it seems to get a bit bogus to spend numerous actions in advance of combat to get numerous free ones in combat.

Yes, you need to manually set it at least once (per timefrime in wich the character is awake).

After it is triggered once, re-triggering is limited by automatic reset or spending another action to set it up again. You just need to spend a attack action somewhere between waking up and brushing your teeth every morning

 

However there would be some weakpoints in the whole Cosntruct:

Since "On attack" is not a valid trigger condition, it must be a no time trigger and the character needs to be aware of the attack. Surprise would still work.

Naturally after being knocked out or going to sleep the Character also looses the preset action.

And of course the GM has to find a way to balance this odd defenses Power against the players OCV, DCV, SPD and Defenses.

[Surrealone]

I have been playing with this a bit(not in game, playing with builds). I'm thinking, as others stated, that it should be done with maneuvers built through powers, as the maneuvers, as far as I can tell, are discounted, so it seems a bit cheesy to me to apply cost modifiers to alter them.

I can't speak for others, but our GM does NOT allow power modifiers to be placed on maneuvers ... for precisely this reason.  As a fair comparison ... martial arts are nothing but collections of (martial) maneuvers ... and martial arts are classed as skills in Hero System.

 

Would you permit power advantages and limitations on skills?  I wouldn't.  My current GM doesn't.  I doubt most GM's do without VERY good reasons ... so why would you permit power advantages and limitations on standard and/or optional maneuvers?  (I wouldn't ... and I bet most GM's don't/won't unless there's a heck of an explanation.)

[Tholomyes]

Would you permit power advantages and limitations on skills?

 

Yes. Skeleton Key: Lockpick 17-, IAF (-1/2), for example.

 

As for advantages on Martial maneuvers, I use the rules set out in Hero System Martial arts (I've heard Ultimate Martial Artist has the same rules, in 5e). You don't get to apply advantages or based on the final cost of the maneuver, but based on the basis of that maneuver, and any additional elements. I would probably look askew at Trigger, if it could be done a better way (for example the aforementioned +DCV (-1/4; not while using Dodge, Block or Dive for cover)), but for most cases, adding advantages based on skills or martial maneuvers, the game has plenty of cases where this is laid out as an option

[massey]

Limitations on skills is fine.  KS: Stuff, OAF "smart phone" works fine.

 

If somebody was really determined to do a Triggered block, I might let them, but I think the Naked Advantage should be on your OCV, since that's really what is being used to block.  That wouldn't be too abusive.  I think that's a good cost mechanic, actually.  

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Would you permit power advantages and limitations on skills?  I wouldn't.  My current GM doesn't.  I doubt most GM's do without VERY good reasons ... so why would you permit power advantages and limitations on standard and/or optional maneuvers?  (I wouldn't.)

I have seen very good reason for this. 

 

EX: Lockpick: Lockpicking 14- OAF. 

 

Additionally, I would allow people to buy things like AoE Nonselective for martial arts that are in a circle. Imagine someone spins on their head and holds out their legs to hit other people surrounding them. I would build that as a strike in a 1 Meter Radius that is Nonselective (Or Selective if they are extremely skilled).

[Surrealone]

 

Yes. Skeleton Key: Lockpick 17-, IAF (-1/2), for example.

 

As for advantages on Martial maneuvers, I use the rules set out in Hero System Martial arts (I've heard Ultimate Martial Artist has the same rules, in 5e). You don't get to apply advantages or based on the final cost of the maneuver, but based on the basis of that maneuver, and any additional elements. I would probably look askew at Trigger, if it could be done a better way (for example the aforementioned +DCV (-1/4; not while using Dodge, Block or Dive for cover)), but for most cases, adding advantages based on skills or martial maneuvers, the game has plenty of cases where this is laid out as an option

A well-made point RE: Skeleton Key, but then you've got a power and not a skill on your hands, don't you?  I'm unfamiliar with Hero System Martial Arts/The Ultimate Martial Artist so I'll have to take your word on those points...

 

 

 

Limitations on skills is fine.  KS: Stuff, OAF "smart phone" works fine.

 

If somebody was really determined to do a Triggered block, I might let them, but I think the Naked Advantage should be on your OCV, since that's really what is being used to block.  That wouldn't be too abusive.  I think that's a good cost mechanic, actually.  

 

That's not a KS, that's an Internet lookup by someone who actually lacks a KS ... hence the need to do the lookup via an Internet-enabled device.  And in such case, I'd argue that it should be some value of the Computer Link perk with the smartphone merely being SFX since, by and large, the phone by itself without ever having had a network link is ... a spendy paperweight.

[Lucius]

 

Would you permit power advantages and limitations on skills? 

 

Yes.

 

Weapon Practice Montage:  Cramming  (5 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Weapon Familiarities (-1) Real Cost: 2

 

At home anywhere:  Cramming  (5 Active Points); Limited Power Only for Languages or for Cultural, Area, or City Knowledges (-1) Real Cost: 2

 

Hunter's snares:  Security Systems 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only to set, recognize, or disarm, snares, pits, and similar hunter's traps (-1) Real Cost: 1

 

Not my first rodeo:  Breakfall 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only if thrown from / falling off of, a mount (Prerequisite: Riding; -1) Real Cost: 1

 

 

Sometimes more than one on the same character

 

"People WANT to believe everything they see fits into the world that's real to them.":  Disguise ("Seriously, if the thought crosses someone's mind 'that woman is a monster' then they see me acting all normal, they just dismiss that foolishness from their minds. In other words, people are idiots.") 13-, Persistent (+1/4) (6 Active Points); Limited Power Self only (-1), Limited Power Not vs Monsters, Hunters, or people  who know that Monsters Exist. (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Cannot use full STR; -1/2), Limited Power Only to pass for Human (-1/2) Real Cost: 1

 

"Yeah, right. What are ya sayin', I'm from outerspace?":  Persuasion (Can convince people what she's saying (or sarcastically implying) is true, but is so abrasive about it that they are alienated and repelled.) 12- (3 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Sarcasm; -1/2) Real Cost: 2

 

"How'd I get them to tell me? It's called social engineering. Also, people are idiots.":  Conversation 12- (3 Active Points); Conditional Power Only online; not face to face (-1 1/2) Real Cost: 1

 

 

BUT - I still don't think I like the idea of putting modifiers on a Martial Maneuver. Especially as it's possible to design powers that do what maneuvers do. And in any case the price will not be based on the normal cost of the Maneuver; I just checked Hero Designer and while it lets me put Trigger on Block, the cost jumps to 24.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Riding Skill with Limitation: only for palindromedaries

[massey]

That's not a KS, that's an Internet lookup by someone who actually lacks a KS ... hence the need to do the lookup via an Internet-enabled device. And in such case, I'd argue that it should be some value of the Computer Link perk with the smartphone merely being SFX since, by and large, the phone by itself without ever having had a network link is ... a spendy paperweight.

No, it's whatever I build it as. There are many ways to skin a cat in the Hero System.

[Alcibiades]

I think it would be much better to by Advantages for STR and/or an HTH Attack than for martial maneuvers themselves.

 

You can simulate a lot with martial arts + a Naked Advantage, Variable Advantage (+1) on STR.

[Surrealone]

No, it's whatever I build it as. There are many ways to skin a cat in the Hero System.

Right but my point was the smartphone, itself, as a focus ... can do very little without a ceullar voice/data link ... and there's something in the game that actually represents that data link on which the lookup for info relies ... far more closely than a KS with a limitation -- something that is, in fact, built to represent links to computing systems that are used to obtain data.  You might build as a KS, but anyone/everyone would be standing on solid footing to challenge that build given a better/closer representation using existing mechanics -- which is why I did so.

 

A KS is a skill that, in its most basic form, represents what someone knows.  If you slap a focus on it, you have essentially required use of the focus to exercise the knowledge that someone knows.  That's NOT what takes place when someone does a lookup on a smartphone; someone doing a lookup on one is searching for something s/he tends NOT to know.  Hence, a KS with a focus limitation is a very poor rendition of a smartphone compared to a Computer Link with a focus limitation ... to represent a device that has a computer link through which lookups are performed.  (After all, the character really doesn't -know- the information -- hence the need to do a lookup on a device with a link to a network of systems where the data may be contained.)

 

But hey, model things however accurately or inaccurately you like.  If you and your fellow players/GMs like handwaving SFX instead of tighter modeling when mechanics allow, it's about what makes you happy and you having fun.  I prefer tighter modeling where possible ... and I thought the example was a poor use case for slapping advantages/limitations on a skill given that better options exist at roughly the same point cost.

[massey]

My smart phone is better. KS: Stuff, OAF

[Alcibiades]

Wouldn't a smartphone be basically a library, that is, a lab, as you would have in a base to get a supplementary skill roll for KSs? That's what it is, more or less -- it's not a library itself, it's allowing you to access libraries. Though I don't know how you would write that up

[TheDarkness]

Another example from my game is a helmet that contains the spirit of a crazy Spartan. The person donning it gains The Spartan's skills.

 

Dr. Fate's helmet conveys knowledge of many things.

 

I have a character who wears the manacles of Houdini, which allows escape artist skills.

 

There's a slew of skills as powers in the game.

 

I sometimes think the martial arts system simplifies things, but almost requires use of powers to customize your martial artist, give them a flavor in the game.

[bigbywolfe]

I can't speak for others, but our GM does NOT allow power modifiers to be placed on maneuvers ... for precisely this reason. As a fair comparison ... martial arts are nothing but collections of (martial) maneuvers ... and martial arts are classed as skills in Hero System.

 

Would you permit power advantages and limitations on skills? I wouldn't. My current GM doesn't. I doubt most GM's do without VERY good reasons ... so why would you permit power advantages and limitations on standard and/or optional maneuvers? (I wouldn't ... and I bet most GM's don't/won't unless there's a heck of an explanation.)

There are tons of skills with Modifiers in dozens of official books. The rules even address buying Skills as Powers, do they not?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the problem with marital arts is that they're a kludge.  They work pretty well but they're just pulled out of thin air.  We don't have a structure or design to build martial arts like a power framework or system.  There's a structure to build martial arts, but its not based on any other part of the hero system, so there's no clear method or way of understanding how to modify or create these maneuvers.  Want to put armor piercing on a fast strike?  There's a sort of workaround to do it but it was added on rather than an organic part of the rules.  

 

Which is why I've been calling for a power framework that is how martial arts are created - which would allow other, similar structures to be created as well such as spell systems and talent trees like some online games use.  This would make building alternate maneuvers and specific ideas into martial arts part of the hero rules rather than a tack-on, which is the way it feels now.

[TheDarkness]

I think the problem with marital arts is that they're a kludge.  They work pretty well but they're just pulled out of thin air.  We don't have a structure or design to build martial arts like a power framework or system.  There's a structure to build martial arts, but its not based on any other part of the hero system, so there's no clear method or way of understanding how to modify or create these maneuvers.  Want to put armor piercing on a fast strike?  There's a sort of workaround to do it but it was added on rather than an organic part of the rules.  

 

Which is why I've been calling for a power framework that is how martial arts are created - which would allow other, similar structures to be created as well such as spell systems and talent trees like some online games use.  This would make building alternate maneuvers and specific ideas into martial arts part of the hero rules rather than a tack-on, which is the way it feels now.

I totally agree with this. I might start a thread just to pick people's brains on how they would build martial arts if there was no preexisting patch. It just seems like martial arts is an area where all the flexibility of Hero goes out the window, and so discussions of it fall back on RAW in a way that often results in "you're trying to do things that the system does not work for" when, in almost every other aspect of the game, this is not as much a problem, as so much is possible.

 

Frankly, if things were reduced to skills as powers, so much more flexibility would be possible. Certain rules would remain, and the free maneuvers should likely remain free, but it would allow so much more. As it stands, certain things become almost nonsensical(counterstrikes come to mind, the way counterstrikes play out are so out of tune with what counterstrikes are, it's almost painful to me). And so discussion sometimes turns to "well, you're trying to use the system for something that it isn't designed for" when, in fact, the patch is not designed for it, but the system is perfectly capable of producing it, were the patch not in the way.

 

Cost, I suspect, would be the determining factor. However, and this is mere speculation, using counterstrike as an example, the cost of making a trigger that would make it useful might mitigate the  purchase of this ability to counter attacks, as a substantial cost means that it is more likely to be a build that someone wishing their character to be a hth expert over other character types might be the only one willing to buy it, and the higher damage it is, the higher the cost, so for many, it might be a fairly weak attack if it isn't their specialty.

 

The topic of triggered damage shields came up, and it's an interesting problem, as it does pose a substantial problem, though, if the shield itself is strong, that's going to be a huge cost. If your opponent's know your biggest power requires them to physically attack you, they are definitely going to find other ways to attack you so that they can make that big purchase useless. A lot of problem or munchkiny builds can be solved by making long-term opponents have brains, imo.

 

Triggered teleport is a whole different issue. Interesting conundrum. On the flip side, someone with a triggered teleport could be repeatedly made to be anywhere but where they wanted to be. I'll have to think about that issue, but that seems like a really expensive build that might make a character who is not able to do much else.

[Lucius]

I totally agree with this. I might start a thread just to pick people's brains on how they would build martial arts if there was no preexisting patch.

If you don't, I might.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or let the palindromedary do it....no wait, that's probably not a good idea

[Surrealone]

There are tons of skills with Modifiers in dozens of official books. The rules even address buying Skills as Powers, do they not?

I suppose I should have been more specific and asked if people would permit "advantages and limitations on Skills and still have them be Skills (not Powers)?"  The act of adding modifiers to Skills makes them Powers -- i.e. they conceptually cease to be something a character knows hot to ply.  Using the Skeleton Key (Lockpicking,  17-, IAF [-1/2]) example from earlier in the thread, the focus has a Power that a character who possesses it can use to open many/most locks ... as opposed to the character having an actual Skill that he/she knows ... which s/he can ply to open locks.

 

Likewise, slapping Trigger on maneuvers would render them Powers ... i.e. changing them from a (standard, martial, and/or optional) maneuver the characters knows how to do ... into a Power the character can use.  To some this may seem like splitting hairs, but as an example ... we're talking about the subtle/distinct difference between Mr. Miyagi (the old man who taught marital arts to the Karate Kid) being able to use skill-based blocks/throws effectively (regardless of whether he's stripped naked)... and someone wearing/using a gadget that lets him/her block/throw effectively ... who can do nothing of the sort without it.

 

I think the problem with marital arts is that they're a kludge.  They work pretty well but they're just pulled out of thin air.

I tend to agree.  That said, I also tend to concur with my GM that things that things players know how to do (Skills) should remains Skills ... and not become Powers with modifiers tacked onto them, if possible.  This suggests that while making a framework for martial arts ... one would also have to reconsider the RAW statement that adding modifiers to Skills makes them Powers, since there's definitely a subtle but important distinction between Skills and Powers.  (If one is willing to do away with that distinction, then Skills, Martial Arts, etc. should just become a subset of Powers (akin to subsets like Standard Powers, Mental Powers, etc.) -- something that seems foreign to me, conceptually -- but it might make sense if SFX is the only differentiator.)

[Lucius]

I suppose I should have been more specific and asked if people would permit "advantages and limitations on Skills and still have them be Skills (not Powers)?"  The act of adding modifiers to Skills makes them Powers -- i.e. they conceptually cease to be something a character knows hot to ply.

 

So, from these examples:

 

Woodcraft: Stealth 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only in wilderness / outdoor settings (-1/2)Real Cost: 1

 

Hunter's snares:  Security Systems 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only to set, recognize, or disarm, snares, pits, and similar hunter's traps (-1) Real Cost: 1

 

Call of the Wild: Mimicry 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Bird and animal calls (-1) Real Cost: 1

 

Not my first rodeo:  Breakfall 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only if thrown from / falling off of, a mount (Prerequisite: Riding; -1) Real Cost: 1

 

 

- what to you implies that these are not "conceptually....something a character knows how to ply?"

 

They look to me like something a character might learn from training and/or experience, perhaps with some native aptitudes involved. Same as the unmodified versions of the same skills, just more limited (pardon the expression) in application.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius Alexander is nonetheless resistant to the idea of modifying Martial Maneuvers, despite being generally in favor of the idea of modifying Skills.

[massey]

Martial arts work just fine if they're just used as martial arts.  It's when you start trying to get into odd constructions, with triggered attacks or blocks or something, that they start to break down.

 

Advantages and Limitations on skills should come with a Stop Sign.  Most of the time, they'll be fine, but occasionally you get weird combinations of things that can make stuff too powerful.  It's like the old 4th edition Simulate Death, Usable Against Others.

[Lucius]

I totally agree with this. I might start a thread just to pick people's brains on how they would build martial arts if there was no preexisting patch.

 

 

If you don't, I might.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or let the palindromedary do it....no wait, that's probably not a good idea

I did it. I expect we'll find that it's possible to do everything Martial Arts can do building with Skills and Powers, but it will be more expensive.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

You can also expect palindromedary taglines

[Surrealone]

 

So, from these examples:

 

Woodcraft: Stealth 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only in wilderness / outdoor settings (-1/2)Real Cost: 1

 

Hunter's snares:  Security Systems 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only to set, recognize, or disarm, snares, pits, and similar hunter's traps (-1) Real Cost: 1

 

Call of the Wild: Mimicry 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Bird and animal calls (-1) Real Cost: 1

 

Not my first rodeo:  Breakfall 10- (2 Active Points); Limited Power Only if thrown from / falling off of, a mount (Prerequisite: Riding; -1) Real Cost: 1

 

 

- what to you implies that these are not "conceptually....something a character knows how to ply?"

 

They look to me like something a character might learn from training and/or experience, perhaps with some native aptitudes involved. Same as the unmodified versions of the same skills, just more limited (pardon the expression) in application.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius Alexander is nonetheless resistant to the idea of modifying Martial Maneuvers, despite being generally in favor of the idea of modifying Skills.

I like these examples.  That said, and being nitpickingly technical, they ceased to be Skills someone knew ... and became Powers that only work in certain circumstances ... the moment modifiers were applied.

[TheDarkness]

 

 

 

I did it. I expect we'll find that it's possible to do everything Martial Arts can do building with Skills and Powers, but it will be more expensive.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

You can also expect palindromedary taglines

I also expect that it will have the granularity of Hero, which the maneuver system is meant to be a simplification and end-run around so that people who do not want to have to build a martial artist can do so with ease. There is use in both, imo.

 

I also would say that the martial arts system has some things that drive me to develop a way to, for those who choose to, not default to is. In game effect, the counterstrike is literally not a counterstrike, but a 'slip a strike and drive in'. I see no reason not to have both.

 

Commenting in general now. A character with a stat as a power, +10 INT for engineering only, is a savant, not a super, even though the stat is bought as a power and has a limitation.

 

I will say that triggers should have limits in many cases. In the other thread, I proposed a simple limit on counterstrike, in which it adds to DCV(slipping the strike), but in which the counterstrike can only occur if the opponent's attack fails, which is both realistic and limiting to the trigger.