Summon and/or Multiform in a VPP

[Surrealone]

So, per RAW, Multiform and Summon are both Standard Powers ... and, thus, fair game for use in frameworks in 5ER and beyond. I'd like to know people's thoughts on each of these in a VPP (with a presumption that SFX make sense, of course).  Are there limitations you would want to see on one, the other, or both of them to keep it sane/manageable?  If so, what are they and why?

 

Context:

I'm asking this because I've got a character with a (cosmic) VPP that requires gestures (both hands) to activate.  The character can control energy at all levels (kinetic, potential, quantum, radiant, chemical, etc.) by vectoring it, transforming it (including into matter or from matter to energy), draining it, amplifying it, changing its state, etc.  I saw the video, below, and it made me envision a change in the actual character to a different physical form, entirely -- one with different properties (and potentially abilities) than his normal matter-state.  It also made me envision ripping a hole in space-time and summoning something through it that exists in a matter-state VERY different from our own.  Thus, I'm contemplating each power ... but I want to make sure it is non-abusive.

 

As an example of the thinking, I could see Hulk-like side effects (big STUN drain, loss of memory, etc.) always occurring after use of Multiform ... as one way to help balance it (and discourage casual use).  I'm looking for other such ways to balance things out as I consider the options ... because Multiform in a VPP would be stupidly powerful without something to counterbalance it.

 

[Hyper-Man]

I've usually reserved the combination of Multiform with VPP for adaptive characters like DC's Parasite and Amazo or Marvel's Rogue and Super Adaptoid since it is about the only way to model such characters at a point level anywhere near what they are actually draining/copying.

 

I think the key to keeping such characters manageable is to clearly define the other "Limits" to how the overall power works. 

 

HM

[Scott Anderson]

VPP itself is potentially abusive and unbalancing.  Go ahead and make the character; present it to your GM; explain why you think that's the best way to build the effect; if he agrees, you're good.  But he may not.

 

As with anything else in the HERO system, it's probably an interesting experiment to build it out and see what happens.  I would suggest several prepared character sheets for alternate forms if you intend to play him in a game.

 

Another way to simulate the same thing is to put such things as Growth, Shrinking, Stretching, Desolidification, and Density Increase into a Multipower or an Elemental Control.  Then create a VPP for ancillary powers like Flight or Invisibility.

[Grailknight]

I dealt with it by houseruling Multiform into a Special Power so it couldn't be used in a framework.

 

Summon is very powerful in a VPP but my houserule for VPP's(no limitations that are not on the Control Cost are allowed) keeps things under control for me. YMMV.

[Surrealone]

VPP itself is potentially abusive and unbalancing.  Go ahead and make the character; present it to your GM; explain why you think that's the best way to build the effect; if he agrees, you're good.  But he may not.

 

As with anything else in the HERO system, it's probably an interesting experiment to build it out and see what happens.  I would suggest several prepared character sheets for alternate forms if you intend to play him in a game.

 

Another way to simulate the same thing is to put such things as Growth, Shrinking, Stretching, Desolidification, and Density Increase into a Multipower or an Elemental Control.  Then create a VPP for ancillary powers like Flight or Invisibility.

Non-issue; the character has been approved and in play for a year, already.  The flexibility offered by the VPP is offset by the character being Joe Average in every other way except intellect (INT).  He's a support character first and foremost and is played as such.  (Optional rules in use also help a lot.  One example is SPD changes only being able to be performed on segments where both the current and new SPDs would have an action .... since this character can impact his and others' SPDs.)

 

 

I dealt with it by houseruling Multiform into a Special Power so it couldn't be used in a framework.

 

Summon is very powerful in a VPP but my houserule for VPP's(no limitations that are not on the Control Cost are allowed) keeps things under control for me. YMMV.

My GM has been clear that RAW outlines adequate limitations on my character's VPP -- and he sticks to this (and I'm fine with it).  As an example -- even though HRRP would make perfect sense for the character given his energy control/manipulation SFX, it's an enhanced sense and cannot be put into a framework without GM permission -- which I don't/won't seek (since RAW is supposed to be the guideline, here) .... and know he won't grant given his statement that RAW outlines the limits of what can/can't be done with the VPP.

 

For clarification:

I'm not looking for how one would keep a player from placing Multiform or Summon in a framework; it's already been clearly laid out that Standard Powers are fine within the VPP.  Instead, I'm asking for your (plural) thoughts on how to do so in a balanced and reasonable fashion.  i.e. What limitations are suggested on the powers themselves to keep them in check ... or their usage low ... or reserve them for 'hail mary' type uses?

 

It never really occurred to me, the player, that this character might use his powers to fundamentally alter himself ... until I saw the Variation 2 in the video above and thought, 'Wow, he can actually do the 'Velocity transforms into Matter' thing for which that variation was named/titled."  The effect was gorgeous and the naming apropos.  I want to model it ... but I understand the potential for abuse implied if it's not done with an eye toward game balance.

[Christopher]

The big issue for me is combining a Multiform with any Power Framework.

Multiform allows you to get another sheet, that can not act at the same time, at 1/5 the cost. It is a cost saving rules construct.

Powerframeworks also save Points.

Pointsaving+Pointsaving = way more saving then you should have had in the first place.

 

Moreover Powerframeworks and Multiform limtiations overlap, wich means each is less limited when combining them. It is like having a variable limtiation or complication.

Poweframewroks save you pointcost at the  opportunity cost of not being able to use all powers together. However when you are using Multiform the Powerframeworks on your Baseform are not useable anyway.

Multiform allows you a second sheet at the cost of having "dead points" on the sheet while not using it. Putting it in a powerframework negagtes that.

 

Both of them perfectly negate each others weakness.

 

 

I've usually reserved the combination of Multiform with VPP for adaptive characters like DC's Parasite and Amazo or Marvel's Rogue and Super Adaptoid since it is about the only way to model such characters at a point level anywhere near what they are actually draining/copying.

 

I think the key to keeping such characters manageable is to clearly define the other "Limits" to how the overall power works. 

 

HM

I think you do that a bit too often:
Not realising how broken/untranslatable a specific Character interpretation is.

 

Parasite and Amazo effectively have every powerset in the setting and for Parasite not even on mutual exclusion*. Think about how expensive a character would be that could do that in the first place. Multiform/limit it down from there.

A adapting Character must have some serious tradeoff for that adaptibility. Either that he can not use the powers on the same level as the original (the Ditto effect). Or he is build on a much bigger pointbase then all other heroes/villains.

 

*Some interpretations of Amazo could only use one powerset at a time. However not all. the JL Cartoon one could combine WW, Harkgirl, GL and Superman at the same time. And later just ignore the Cryptonite weakness and adds telephathy.
Not to mention his Golden Amazo Form, wich was a plain broken build capable of defeating the entire Jutstice League on his own, without breaking a sweat.

[Lucius]

The big issue for me is combining a Multiform with any Power Framework.

Multiform allows you to get another sheet, that can not act at the same time, at 1/5 the cost. It is a cost saving rules construct.

Powerframeworks also save Points.

Pointsaving+Pointsaving = way more saving then you should have had in the first place.

 

Moreover Powerframeworks and Multiform limtiations overlap, wich means each is less limited when combining them. It is like having a variable limtiation or complication.

Poweframewroks save you pointcost at the  opportunity cost of not being able to use all powers together. However when you are using Multiform the Powerframeworks on your Baseform are not useable anyway.

Multiform allows you a second sheet at the cost of having "dead points" on the sheet while not using it. Putting it in a powerframework negagtes that.

 

Both of them perfectly negate each others weakness.

 

 

That is extremely well reasoned.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Now if I could just get a palindromedary to perfectly negate my weakness

[Alcibiades]

I used Multiform in a Multipower to represent a character who could turn into various animals, with intermediate human-animal forms. It just seemed that only one to do it so the character would have to turn into a wolfman before he could turn into a wolf, for instance.

 

It is something like

 

Multipower with a really big AP limit (190 points or so)

Slot 1: Avatar of the Wolf: +5 STR plus +5 DEX plus 1d6 HKA plus a bunch of other stuff (wolf abilities) plus Multiform to Wolf

Slot 2: Avatar of the Killer Whale: +10 STR + 20m Swimming + 2d6 HKA plus a bunch of other stuff (killer whale abilities) plus Multiform to Killer Whale

3 or 4 more slots

 

I'm actually not completely sure if this construction is legal and I'd appreciate input if it isn't.

[Surrealone]

The big issue for me is combining a Multiform with any Power Framework.

Multiform allows you to get another sheet, that can not act at the same time, at 1/5 the cost. It is a cost saving rules construct.

Powerframeworks also save Points.

Pointsaving+Pointsaving = way more saving then you should have had in the first place.

 

Moreover Powerframeworks and Multiform limtiations overlap, wich means each is less limited when combining them. It is like having a variable limtiation or complication.

Poweframewroks save you pointcost at the  opportunity cost of not being able to use all powers together. However when you are using Multiform the Powerframeworks on your Baseform are not useable anyway.

Multiform allows you a second sheet at the cost of having "dead points" on the sheet while not using it. Putting it in a powerframework negagtes that.

 

Both of them perfectly negate each others weakness.

 

Mechanically what you indicate is true, but conceptually there's a difference between a character who, by his/her nature, has multiple forms (i.e. multiform bought raw on the sheet) ... and a character who is using some non-natural ability to alter his form.  I strongly suspect that recognition of this subtle but important distinction is why Multiform was changed from a Special Power (in 4th Ed.) to a Standard Power in 5th Edition and beyond. 

 

Regardless, the legality and/or mechanics are not the questions here.  People keep veering off topic when it's been made clear by the GM that RAW will govern what can be used within the VPP.  Multiform is legal in a framework per RAW.  So we're now back to what limitations will keep it reasonable?  Non-persistent comes to mind, specifically because if there's a cessation in use of the power, the character should revert to the true form.

 

 

I used Multiform in a Multipower to represent a character who could turn into various animals, with intermediate human-animal forms. It just seemed that only one to do it so the character would have to turn into a wolfman before he could turn into a wolf, for instance.

 

It is something like

 

Multipower with a really big AP limit (190 points or so)

Slot 1: Avatar of the Wolf: +5 STR plus +5 DEX plus 1d6 HKA plus a bunch of other stuff (wolf abilities) plus Multiform to Wolf

Slot 2: Avatar of the Killer Whale: +10 STR + 20m Swimming + 2d6 HKA plus a bunch of other stuff (killer whale abilities) plus Multiform to Killer Whale

3 or 4 more slots

 

I'm actually not completely sure if this construction is legal and I'd appreciate input if it isn't.

Most GM's would have you pay more pts (+5 per 2x num forms) in multi-form for an additional form.  That said, if you're using a power to force yourself into multiple forms (i.e. having multiple forms isn't your natural state without use of the abilities/SFX of the power framework), then this is the correct construct and per 5E rules and beyond, it's legal since Multiform is a Standard Power as of 5th Edition.

 

IIRC, 5ER rules indicate one DOES NOT use the "+5 per 2x forms" costing when using frameworks, instead one buys multiple slots (in a MP) or has multiple, differing constructs (in a VPP).  Champions Complete doesn't bother talking about this, but I suspect it's similar or unchanged in full 6e rules.  I recommend double-checking.

[Alcibiades]

 

Most GM's would have you pay more pts in multi-form for an additional form.  That said, if you're using a power to force yourself into multiple forms, then this is the correct construct and per 5E rules and beyond, it's legal since Multiform is a Standard Power as of 5th Edition.

 

It was actually the only way I could think, without handwaving, of requiring the character to move through an intermediate form (activating the slot) before going to the final form (the various Multiforms had Extra Time on them, so he would have to change into the wolfman form and spend some time in it before changing into the full wolf, for instance).

[bigdamnhero]

I look at Frameworks this way: Say the character standing next to you paid full point for his [power] - why should you get the same [power] for free? The answer usually being: because the Framework limits my use of it in some meaningful ways. So the question is, how is this specific power build limited by putting it in a VPP?

 

Multiform and Summons are kindof mini-frameworks in their own right, so putting them them inside a real Framework is problematic. Rules-legal yes, but multiple flashing stop signs. I don't think I've ever put Multiform in a Framework, but I've done or seen it done with Summons a lot. It can be fun, but if misused it can easily become a way to get a bunch of high-powered Followers, Vehicles, etc for free.

 

Example 1: A demonologist PC has Summon Demons as a VPP spell. Before every fight, she summons a couple of demons to fight alongside her and soak up damage. Because she summons them before the fight starts, she still has her full VPP available for other spells once the fight starts. (This doesn't work if she's surprised or doesn't have prep time of course, but that's because of Limitations on the Summons itself - extra time, preparations, etc. - not the VPP.) Yes, she has to win an EGO contest once a Turn(ish) to retain control, but her EGO is high enough that this isn't a significant problem and she has Mind Control - also in the VPP - as an emergency backup. Effectively as long as she has a Turn to prep she's gotten a couple Followers for free.

Possible solutions: Be very strict about number of commands allowed; give the Summoned creatures higher EGOs and/or don't allow Amicable; put a time limit on how long the demons will stay around, so that summoning them ahead of time is less useful; limit the Summons so that it Locks Out all or part of the VPP as long as the Summoned creatures are around, or at least require some END expenditure to make them stay.

 

Example 2: A superhero PC has a slot in his VPP that lets him teleport his motorcycle to him whenever he wants. He's paid for Slavishly Devoted, and Specific Being, plus enough Additional Tasks to get him through most combats. He usually summons it out of combat, so the VPP doesn't really limit him. He has essentially gotten a vehicle for free. In a high-power campaign, a free motorcycle probably isn't a big deal, but substitute "Tank" or "Battle Mech" and it becomes a very different situation.

Possible solutions: As above re time limits, Lockout or END expenditure. Don't let the character buy additional tasks. Or better yet - make the character pay points for the damn bike, and Summons (or Teleport?) is just a way to bring the bike to him.

 

Another thing I've done is to use VPPs as a semi-multiform for characters whose powers change in set groupings, but they don't actually change forms. So Elementia's powers rotate through the four elements: one Phase she's on fire, next phase she's made of stone, etc. Each set of powers is "grouped" inside the VPP with the Limitation that they have to be activated as a group. Each group also comes with their own Complications, tacked on as Side Effects. The build looks messy (especially if you're using HD, because you can't put lists or separators inside VPPs), but once you have it built you can just print off each power group separately and ignore the VPP itself during play.

 

It seems you could do something similar here: take all the Powers, Characteristic changes, etc that the second form would have, and stick them in your VPP with some kind of Linked +/or Unified. If they don't all fit in the VPP, then you may have a power level problem. If they do all fit, then you don't need the Summons - you just configure your VPP to the new powers and the actual change of form becomes sfx?

[bigdamnhero]

It was actually the only way I could think, without handwaving, of requiring the character to move through an intermediate form (activating the slot) before going to the final form (the various Multiforms had Extra Time on them, so he would have to change into the wolfman form and spend some time in it before changing into the full wolf, for instance).

It looks like the way you have it built, both the intermediate powers and the Multiform are technically "on" at the same time? I'm not sure building it that way is illegal per se, but it seems like it would be easier - and almost surely cheaper - to just build it as a regular Multiform with twice as many forms, and then slap on a Limitation that you must spend X Phases as wolfman before you can change into wolf, etc?

[Christopher R Taylor]

It takes some GM supervision, but I find that it can be very useful.  I built an animal shapeshifter using a Power Pool of Multiforms (and a multipower for partial shifting like getting cat's eyes).  It can definitely be abused easily but its also a valid build for certain specific and limited concepts.  As long as you're not doing it just to get around the limitations on how many forms you can have with mlutiform, I think its something a GM should consider allowing.

[Christopher]

Mechanically what you indicate is true, but conceptually there's a difference between a character who, by his/her nature, has multiple forms (i.e. multiform bought raw on the sheet) ... and a character who is using some non-natural ability to alter his form.  I strongly suspect that recognition of this subtle but important distinction is why Multiform was changed from a Special Power (in 4th Ed.) to a Standard Power in 5th Edition and beyond. 

 

Regardless, the legality and/or mechanics are not the questions here.  People keep veering off topic when it's been made clear by the GM that RAW will govern what can be used within the VPP.  Multiform is legal in a framework per RAW.  So we're now back to what limitations will keep it reasonable?  Non-persistent comes to mind, specifically because if there's a cessation in use of the power, the character should revert to the true form.

Concept does not mater. It is like special effect, something intangible and not relevant to the game discussion.

 

We are talking about the game effect.

Specifically: Wich Limitations (a game effect) could make this Construct (a game effect) less problematic from a Game Balance point of view?

 

The "rule of game balance" is more fundamental then "Special Powers do not belong into Power Frameworks" or even "this is what Frameworks are there and how they work". Anything you construct - no mater how legal by RAW - can be denied by the GM based on that ultimative argument of Game Balance Reason.

 

It was actually the only way I could think, without handwaving, of requiring the character to move through an intermediate form (activating the slot) before going to the final form (the various Multiforms had Extra Time on them, so he would have to change into the wolfman form and spend some time in it before changing into the full wolf, for instance).

In 6E you can switch directly between Alternate Forms. "Revert to baseform on KO" was also renamed to accomodate that you might not end up in your base form (the weakest one) on Knockout.

But in turn it might be a advantage too (if you automatically revert to your most powerfull alternate Form).

 

 

To get back on Topic, let me ask a question:

Why are you even trying to combine VPP and Multiform? Why do you not just take both? You can easily stack a lot of alternate forms onto

Answer 1: You either have to reduce the power or exceed the campaign limits to do so.

Answer 2: It would result in the proper cost for the effect.

More so then towards our GM's, we might try to obfuscate how broken something is from ourselfs.

 

It takes some GM supervision, but I find that it can be very useful.  I built an animal shapeshifter using a Power Pool of Multiforms (and a multipower for partial shifting like getting cat's eyes).  It can definitely be abused easily but its also a valid build for certain specific and limited concepts.  As long as you're not doing it just to get around the limitations on how many forms you can have with mlutiform, I think its something a GM should consider allowing.

It sounds easier to just allow special powers in framework (like Nightvision based on cat's eyes).

For wich there is explicitly mention in the Special Powers rules: "Can't be put into Frameworks, unless the GM allows it based on SFX and other limitations".

 

I look at Frameworks this way: Say the character standing next to you paid full point for his [power] - why should you get the same [power] for free? The answer usually being: because the Framework limits my use of it in some meaningful ways. So the question is, how is this specific power build limited by putting it in a VPP?

 

Multiform and Summons are kindof mini-frameworks in their own right, so putting them them inside a real Framework is problematic. Rules-legal yes, but multiple flashing stop signs. I don't think I've ever put Multiform in a Framework, but I've done or seen it done with Summons a lot. It can be fun, but if misused it can easily become a way to get a bunch of high-powered Followers, Vehicles, etc for free.

I once had some thoughts on the mater of Combining Frameworks - specifically putting a Multipower into a VPP as a single slot.

I have to dig for it a bit, but it should be a viable alternative.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It sounds easier to just allow special powers in framework (like Nightvision based on cat's eyes).

Yeah I worded it wrong, the partial shifting is in a separate multipower for minor effects like a tail or ears or a wolf's snout, etc.  The VPP is for changing completely into another ordinary animal.  Since the character was a time-displaced Golden Age sidekick, he could only change into AMERICAN animals (of course) as he was one of those super patriotic types from WW2.  Over time I figured with xps he could buy off that limitation and change into anything.

 

It was fun doing a charge as an antelope, leaping sideways, then turning into a whale -- an American whale! -- and sideswiping a crowd of agents.

[Surrealone]

 

I look at Frameworks this way: Say the character standing next to you paid full point for his [power] - why should you get the same [power] for free? The answer usually being: because the Framework limits my use of it in some meaningful ways. So the question is, how is this specific power build limited by putting it in a VPP?

I look at frameworks the same way you do.  Conceptually, by using the VPP for this specific power build (i.e. Multiform or Summon), the character would be able to use his VPP for little else; i.e. he'd be invested in using his power to alter his form into some other state ... rather than to form force walls, force fields, influence the battlefield with drains, changes to the environment, AoE attacks, etc.  Mechanically, to make the concept work, there is the implication of Multiform being non-persistent ... and for both Multiform and Summon having 'lockout'.

 

 

Multiform and Summons are kindof mini-frameworks in their own right, so putting them them inside a real Framework is problematic. Rules-legal yes, but multiple flashing stop signs. I don't think I've ever put Multiform in a Framework, but I've done or seen it done with Summons a lot. It can be fun, but if misused it can easily become a way to get a bunch of high-powered Followers, Vehicles, etc for free.

I'll have to disagree on the mini-framework comment, as they're powers, not frameworks.  That said, the 1 per 5 CP cost structure is not lost on me.  I'm not looking for abuse, here, which is why I spawned this thread to help with appropriate limitations.  Rather, my goal is for the character to be able to change himself into the forms (with all of their kinetic and potential implications) seen in the video to which I provided a link .... or to summon entities that are similar.  Oddly, you say you've seen Summon done in a framework but you've never seen Multiform there, yet of the two, it is Summon that has the warning symbol in 5ER while Multiform has neither a warning nor a stop symbol.  (I hope we both recognize that RAW flies in the face of your 'multiple flashing stop signs' remark.)  Still, I am a seasoned player, so the implications of Multiform and/or Summon in a VPP are not lost on me (regardless of legality) which is, again, why I looked to these forums for ideas to balance one or both powers in a sane way.  Interestingly, the recurring response I seem to be getting is that people elect not to try, which seems like a cop-out to me.

 

 

Another thing I've done is to use VPPs as a semi-multiform for characters whose powers change in set groupings, but they don't actually change forms. So Elementia's powers rotate through the four elements: one Phase she's on fire, next phase she's made of stone, etc. Each set of powers is "grouped" inside the VPP with the Limitation that they have to be activated as a group. Each group also comes with their own Complications, tacked on as Side Effects. The build looks messy (especially if you're using HD, because you can't put lists or separators inside VPPs), but once you have it built you can just print off each power group separately and ignore the VPP itself during play.

 

It seems you could do something similar here: take all the Powers, Characteristic changes, etc that the second form would have, and stick them in your VPP with some kind of Linked +/or Unified. If they don't all fit in the VPP, then you may have a power level problem. If they do all fit, then you don't need the Summons - you just configure your VPP to the new powers and the actual change of form becomes sfx?

It's a 5ER game so there's no Unified Power limitation.  Also, per 5ER RAW (page 311), "A character cannot (a) Link two slots in the same Framework to each other ...".  Am I the only one who finds it odd that you've suggested an approach that violates RAW ... in order to avoid doing something that's legal per RAW?  That smacks of trying to avoid embracing RAW in a game-balanced manner (i.e. with a good set of appropriate limitations) rather than coming up with ideas for a good set of appropriate limitations.  (i.e. It feels like another sort of cop-out ... since it's an avoidance tactic ... that breaks the rules in order to avoid adhering to them.  Heh.)
 

 

We are talking about the game effect.

Specifically: Wich Limitations (a game effect) could make this Construct (a game effect) less problematic from a Game Balance point of view?

 

The "rule of game balance" is more fundamental then "Special Powers do not belong into Power Frameworks" or even "this is what Frameworks are there and how they work". Anything you construct - no mater how legal by RAW - can be denied by the GM based on that ultimative argument of Game Balance Reason.

Yes, we are talking about game effect.  And I am specifically looking for ideas that could help prevent the construct from being problematic -- yet you didn't provide any ideas/suggestions.  Oddly, despite asking/reiterating the right question, instead of providing insight/suggestions you followed on with others and dodged the very purpose for which I started this thread.  (People here keep questioning the construct, despite it being legal per 5ER RAW and despite me already making it clear the GM has said that RAW governs what can and cannot be placed in the character's VPP; that's pointless and serves no functional purpose.)

To your second paragraph, above: I am quite interested in game balance ... which is why I am looking for ideas to help ensure there's not a problem with the desired implementation.  Did your quoted statement, above, offer any insight, at all, into that?  Or did it merely preach balance without offering anything that might be useful?  You be the judge.  That's not intended to be harsh, by the way.  I spelled it out because, again, rather than adding ideas/suggestions for limitations to consider for the construct so that it wouldn't be an issue, the actual subject/purpose of this thread was ignored.
 

 

To get back on Topic, let me ask a question:

Why are you even trying to combine VPP and Multiform? Why do you not just take both? You can easily stack a lot of alternate forms onto
Answer 1: You either have to reduce the power or exceed the campaign limits to do so.

Answer 2: It would result in the proper cost for the effect.

More so then towards our GM's, we might try to obfuscate how broken something is from ourselfs.

Answer 3: In short, I saw the video I linked and it gave me ideas for what the character might do with his ability to manipulate matter/energy if he were to use it on himself (so far he's only used it in areas, on others, and to affect his own strength/movement; I'm considering taking that a step further).  To me it makes no sense for the character to have Multiform outside of his VPP as he's not naturally a multi-formed character.  However, it makes perfect sense for him to tie up his entire VPP reserve to temporarily alter his own matter/energy to that of another form .... while being able to do nothing else with that VPP.

I can get Multiform down to 12 real points outside of the VPP (using limitations that make a pile of sense) ... to change to 1 other form that has the same point base as the 'true' form.  Thus, cost has nothing to do with the decision.  In fact, having Multiform outside of the VPP would actually be -more- concerning to me than within it because, conceptually, it wouldn't entail all of the character's focus to use and, thus, it could be persistent -- whereas I see Nonpersistent as a required limitation if the power is taken within the VPP.  (As previously noted in this thread, the 'true' form is Joe Average in all respects aside from his INT and his VPP' -- so not exactly an advantage to revert to it if stunned, KO'd, etc.)

 

Perhaps more important:

I already know (and stated earlier in the thread with slightly different verbiage) that I have GM approval to use any (and only) 5ER Standard Powers in the VPP.  I'm trying to make sure I am judicious about it while still exploring the possibility of the character temporarily changing the matter of his being into (and harnessing the potential of) what was seen in the video I posted.

​A question for you:

Did you not read the entire thread before responding?  I ask because my motive has been clearly stated in this thread, already -- and now reiterated a few times in this post.  Colour me confused why you questioned it -- hence this question back to you.

[Hyper-Man]

re: Unified and 5e/5er rules

 

A version of Unified existed before 6e. It just had a less memorable name.

 

From the 5er FAQ (I saved a copy before the website was updated)

Question:
If a character wants powers outside his EC (whether in another Power Framework or otherwise) to be affected by negative Adjustment Powers (Drains and the like) as if they were in the EC (to represent a linkage of the overall special effects of his powers), how can he buy that?

Answer:
To simulate this sort of linkage, take this Limitation on all relevant powers outside the EC: Affected By Negative Adjustment Powers Used On [Name] EC (-1/4).

If a character wants his EC to suffer negative effects when any of the outside, related, powers suffer them, he should take the following Limitation on all such EC powers subject to the handicap: Affected By Negative Adjustment Powers Used On Any Outside Power Of [X] Special Effect (-1/4). (Feel free to define X more specifically if you want and the GM doesn’t object.)

If a character wants the slots in his Multipower to work like an EC in regard to the effects of Drain (or the like), he really should buy an EC instead of a Multipower. But if the GM doesn’t object, he could apply a variant of these -1/4 Limitations to make the Multipower work like an EC in regard to Drains and the like.

Of course, the value of these Limitations may change depending on the frequency with which Drains (and the like) are used in the campaign.

 

 

And here is an example 5e character built with this Limitation on their Framework.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

re: Linked and Frameworks

 

It is legal to Link one Power inside a single slot of a Framework to another Power within the same Framework slot.

From 5er page 311:
 

A character can put two or more Linked powers in a single Power Framework slot, unless the GM forbids this for some reason. The  combined Active Points of the powers must not exceed the reserve. For example, if a character had a slot with an Energy Blast 8d6 + Sight Group Flash 4d6, the total Active Point cost of the slot is 60; the power wouldn’t fit in a Multipower with a 50-point reserve. Normal rules for use of Linked powers apply.

 

 

 

Here is a 6e example VPP slot from a famous speedster where 2 of the Combined Powers are built with Linked:

21) Invisible Superspeed Punch:  (Total: 60 Active Cost, 39 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack (IPE) +5d6, Invisible Power Effects (Inobvious to [sight Group]; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; 6e damage prorating rules mean that STR and Manuever Damage adds at 2/3 the normal rate (15 STR adds +2DC, Move By adds +1DC per 15m, Sacrifice Strike adds Total +5DC combined with 20 STR); +1/2) (50 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 33)
PLUS
Invisible Power Effects (Inobvious to [sight Group Group]; +1/4) for up to 20 Active Points of STR (Naked Advantage) (5 Active Points); Linked (Hand-To-Hand Attack (IPE); Lesser Power need not be used proportionally to Power with which it is Linked; -1/4) (Real Cost: 4)
PLUS
Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) for up to 20 Active Points of STR (Naked Advantage) (5 Active Points); Linked (Hand-To-Hand Attack (IPE); Lesser Power need not be used proportionally to Power with which it is Linked; -1/4) (Real Cost: 4) Real Cost: 39

Notes: This slot normally represents punching at such Super Speed that the attack appears to be 'invisible'. Optionally, targets with enough levels of Rapid with Sight could still see the "Punch". In 6e AOE Accurate combined with HA is normally not Blockable or Dodgeable (changed from 5e). As built, only a target with Rapid Sight or another Targeting Sense could even sense the attack coming and attempt a Dive for Cover. The AOE Accurate on the HA applies to the STR used for free. The IPE and Reduced Endurance on the HA do not apply to the STR used which is the reason for the Naked Advantages. END cost with STR = 4

 

 

And here is a link to relevant thread from 2013 that discusses the issues with applying Linked to a VPP.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/88123-thoughts-on-magical-items/?p=2330125

 

HM

[dmjalund]

Variable Form Pool

 

Is to multi form as variable power pool is to multi power

 

 

Discuss

[bigdamnhero]

Conceptually, by using the VPP for this specific power build (i.e. Multiform or Summon), the character would be able to use his VPP for little else; i.e. he'd be invested in using his power to alter his form into some other state ... rather than to form force walls, force fields, influence the battlefield with drains, changes to the environment, AoE attacks, etc.  Mechanically, to make the concept work, there is the implication of Multiform being non-persistent ... and for both Multiform and Summon having 'lockout'.

I think your last sentence here is the key. Normally, once the character shifts to another form, it has a new character sheet with it's own unique power set that may or may not even include the original form's VPP, right? So the fact that you can't use any other VPP powers on the phase you're shifting isn't really that limiting IMO. Even if you have to pay END to maintain the shifted form, that's a Limitation of the Multiform, not of the VPP. Now if it's a situation where the shifted form also has access to the original form's VPP, but half of the Pool is locked out to maintain the Multiform or something, then that's a real limitation and I think you're probably fine.

 

I'll have to disagree on the mini-framework comment, as they're powers, not frameworks.  That said, the 1 per 5 CP cost structure is not lost on me.

Yes, I know that they're not Frameworks (capital F). But the price discount, combined with the ability to have multiple powers/abilities under one grouping means they work kinda-sorta like mini-frameworks (lower case f). I think of Martial Arts the same way. That said, I have occasionally allowed Martial Maneuvers in Frameworks too, so it's not a deal-breaker for me - just a warning sign. But if you don't like the semantics of "mini-framework" that's okay.

 

Oddly, you say you've seen Summon done in a framework but you've never seen Multiform there, yet of the two, it is Summon that has the warning symbol in 5ER while Multiform has neither a warning nor a stop symbol.  (I hope we both recognize that RAW flies in the face of your 'multiple flashing stop signs' remark.)

Well yes, Summon has a warning sign because it's easy to abuse in its own right. But note that 5ER p212 devotes a couple paragraphs to concerns about putting Multiform in Frameworks. In fact it specifically notes that the tradeoffs of using Frameworks are very similar to those inherent in Multiform. So yes RAW allows it, but I'd consider that the text equivalent of a warning sign for that combination of putting the Power inside a Framework.

 

per 5ER RAW (page 311), "A character cannot (a) Link two slots in the same Framework to each other ...". 

You're right about Linked, but I meant an approach more like what Hyper-Man suggested where two powers are Linked within the same slot, more like a Compound Power. And actually you don't have to use the "Linked" (capital L) Limitation at all - call it a 0-point Custim Limitation or just put in the notes that these 5 powers all activate at once.

 

Am I the only one who finds it odd that you've suggested an approach that violates RAW ... in order to avoid doing something that's legal per RAW?  That smacks of trying to avoid embracing RAW in a game-balanced manner (i.e. with a good set of appropriate limitations) rather than coming up with ideas for a good set of appropriate limitations.  (i.e. It feels like another sort of cop-out ... since it's an avoidance tactic ... that breaks the rules in order to avoid adhering to them.  Heh.)

You know, when you're asking other people for their help, and they're giving you ideas, insulting them and their suggestions is not the best way to encourage them to help you more. Just sayin.

[Alcibiades]

It looks like the way you have it built, both the intermediate powers and the Multiform are technically "on" at the same time? I'm not sure building it that way is illegal per se, but it seems like it would be easier - and almost surely cheaper - to just build it as a regular Multiform with twice as many forms, and then slap on a Limitation that you must spend X Phases as wolfman before you can change into wolf, etc?

 

Well I am unclear about this. I see builds, in published materials, that have a compound power inside a Multipower slot with one power Linked to the other, which seems to imply that you could otherwise activate one power and not the other while the slot is active. EDIT: I see Hyperman mentioned this.

 

The problem with the Limitation is that, due to how Multiform is priced, it applies to the whole power and not just the forms that would be affected by the Limitation. If I am expressing myself clearly?

 

I suppose another route would be to give the base character a Multiform to the Animal Man forms, and then give each of those forms its own Multiform to the full Animal form. But that way lies madness.

[bigdamnhero]

Well I am unclear about this. I see builds, in published materials, that have a compound power inside a Multipower slot with one power Linked to the other, which seems to imply that you could otherwise activate one power and not the other while the slot is active. EDIT: I see Hyperman mentioned this.

You're right about Compound/Linked powers within a Framework slot; that isn't the issue in my mind. If I understand you right, the idea is that the Avatar powers kick in first, then after a delay the Linked Multiform kicks in, right? But if it's Linked that implies the Avatar powers remain in effect too? How does that work since at that point you've shifted to a completely different character sheet? I think it may be legal, but it just looks weird to me personally.

 

You're also right about the Limitation applying to the Multiform as a whole, rather than to the specific form. That might reduce the value of the Limitation (your/GM's call), but doesn't invalidate it IMO. Essentially the Limitation is not on the forms themselves, but rather reflects the fact that as the overall character you are restricted in how/when you can select forms. So say the final animal forms take Extra Time: 1 Turn, which would normally be worth -1 1/4; but because it only applies to half the forms, maybe you reduce the value to -3/4 or something? Honestly "Limited Power" covers a multitude of sins.

 

And I do actually think it would be legal to give the primary form Multiform to turn into the Avatar forms, and then give the Avatar forms their own Multiforms (with Extra Time) to turn into the final forms. I agree you don't want to go too far down that road lest you fall into a recursive loop, but as long as it's limited and not abused it's not a bad way of achieving the effect, and it still plays the same I think.

 

With Hero there's almost always more than one way to do a thing.

[Alcibiades]

You're right about Compound/Linked powers within a Framework slot; that isn't the issue in my mind. If I understand you right, the idea is that the Avatar powers kick in first, then after a delay the Linked Multiform kicks in, right? But if it's Linked that implies the Avatar powers remain in effect too? How does that work since at that point you've shifted to a completely different character sheet? I think it may be legal, but it just looks weird to me personally.

 

You're also right about the Limitation applying to the Multiform as a whole, rather than to the specific form. That might reduce the value of the Limitation (your/GM's call), but doesn't invalidate it IMO. Essentially the Limitation is not on the forms themselves, but rather reflects the fact that as the overall character you are restricted in how/when you can select forms. So say the final animal forms take Extra Time: 1 Turn, which would normally be worth -1 1/4; but because it only applies to half the forms, maybe you reduce the value to -3/4 or something? Honestly "Limited Power" covers a multitude of sins.

 

And I do actually think it would be legal to give the primary form Multiform to turn into the Avatar forms, and then give the Avatar forms their own Multiforms (with Extra Time) to turn into the final forms. I agree you don't want to go too far down that road lest you fall into a recursive loop, but as long as it's limited and not abused it's not a bad way of achieving the effect, and it still plays the same I think.

 

With Hero there's almost always more than one way to do a thing.

 

The idea is that, as in a classic movie lycanthrope, there are three states -- human, animal-human hybrid, and animal. To change into an animal you have to become a hybrid first.

 

So what I did was roughly

 

Big Multipower Reserve, the whole thing with Variable Limitations (Extra Time, Increased END Cost [all Only To Activate] and so forth) to represent that changing forms is not easy.

 

Slot 1: Bear Totem: STR + 15 plus CON + 5 plus HKA 1d6 plus PRE +10 (only to roar) (and a lot more stuff, basically what would bring the base character up to the level of the Werebear in the Bestiary) plus Multiform to 380-point Giant Bear with a higher level of Extra Time

 

Slot 2: Owl Totem: DEX + 3 plus 20m Flight, Restrainable + HKA 1/2d6 etc. (to bring the character up to match the Bestiary's Birdman() plus Multiform to 250-point Giant Owl or 200-point Owl with a higher level of Extra Time

 

and 3 others (Fox, Killer Whale, Wolf)

 

The idea here being that the character activates a slot, obtaining the characteristic increases and so forth (the hybrid form), and also the ability to access the Multiform. But because the powers are not actually Linked to each other, and because the Multiform requires more Extra Time, it can only be activated by spending additional time -- activating the slot just gives access to it.

 

Another consideration is that the hybrid forms retain the base form's abilities (mainly a small Magic Pool) and the full animal ones do not.