HERO System Stress Test: Homo Sapien versus Felis Catus.

[bigbywolfe]

This snarky defensiveness is so very odd.

So is this ridiculously small type that is barely legible on a standard screen. 

[Ragitsu]

Again: one (or more) badly-built "monsters" in the "bestiary" doesn't illustrate any basic failing in the ruleset.

 

The snarky defensiveness is because you seem to insist that it does.

 

I understood why you put the word monsters in quotes, because people typically don't consider a house cat a monster, but why the word bestiary? Is it not an actual bestiary?

 

The defensiveness happens because I apparently am not getting on board with the "use weapons and all is fine" line of argument when a human shouldn't have to in order to avoid an unceremonious death from a small domesticated pet that isn't venomous and is much more fragile by comparison.

 

 

 

Right, the test is bad because it starting out with bad data.  A cat is nothing like that build, so of course it ends up a mess.  Its like the 9 foot rattlesnakes with 40m movement in Western Hero; they're built poorly so you get poor results.

 

The heck? Are those supposed to regular rattlesnakes?

 

 

[Surrealone]

The defensiveness happens because I apparently am not getting on board with the "use weapons and all is fine" line of argument when a human shouldn't have to in order to avoid an unceremonious death from a small domesticated pet that isn't venomous and is much more fragile by comparison.

No one said a human has to.  But it IS what a human would do (if fleeing were not an option) when faced with an infectious, beserk cat that is possessed by a malicious servant of Bastet -- to use your example.

 

Requiring the human to use no tools (who said weapons?) is like insisting there's no cover in which the cat can take refuge -- i.e. it denies what is normal/natural for the creature.  i.e. You're sticking two entities into a blank box and saying, "Ready?!  Fight!" ... as a so-called stress test.  Not only is it so artificial as to be unrealistic, but it upends everything both creatures would naturally do.

 

​But I'll humour you for just a moment, anyway.  The human would make a loud noise while violently feinting as if to lash out at the cat (presence attack the cat).  The cat (even the badly built one that was previously referenced), with practically no presence and absolutely nowhere to hide (in the blank box) would hesitate ....  and the human would kick it while pushing strength ... generating damage AND increased knockback due to the cat's reduced size.  Most likely stunned, the human could then repeatedly kick the cat to death.  Done.

 

Surreal

 

P.S. I'm assuming the human is wearing shoes.  Those are tools.  Does the human have to be buck naked in your scenario?  If so, I'm not sure it makes a difference to the above, but I'm pointing it out just to demonstrate how inane your insistence on 'no tools' actually is -- because it means no clothes, too.  We are a species that has become so dependent on tools that they're often taken for granted...

 

 

[Ragitsu]

P.S. I'm assuming the human is wearing shoes.  Those are tools.  Does the human have to be buck naked in your scenario?  If so, I'm not sure it makes a difference, but I'm pointing it out just to demonstrate how inane your insistence on 'no tools' actually is -- because it means no clothes, too.

 

 

No need for an assumption. The very first post in this thread states what the human is wearing.

 

Would you agree that a human that doesn't have an improvised weapon (wielded at a penalty to OCV?) is at a distinct disadvantage compared to the official statistics for a house cat? How about two cats? Would you also agree that different figures are necessary if the desired goal is to represent a realistic felis catus?

[Surrealone]

P.S. So would you agree that a human that doesn't have an improvised weapon (wielded at a penalty to OCV?) is at a distinct disadvantage compared to the official statistics for a house cat? How about two cats? Would you also agree that different figures are necessary if the desired goal is to represent a realistic felis catus?

No, I don't agree that the human is at a disadvantage compared to the 'official' statistics for a house cat -- because the human can PRE attack and easily stomp/beat the cat into oblivion when it hesitates.

 

In a two-cat scenario the human PRE attacks, then grabs one (scruff) and slams it ... while PRE-attacking again during the slam (likely with increased dice due to the sheer violence displayed) to cause the second to hesitate, at which point the next slam is of the first cat into the second one (i.e. one cat becomes the weapon used against the other).  The human may soak a little damage from the second cat before it's struck.  No biggie.

 

I absolutely agree that the cat was so poorly built as to be unrealistic -- and that a different build is called for.

[Ragitsu]

No, I don't agree that the human is at a disadvantage compared to the 'official' statistics for a house cat -- because the human can PRE attack and easily stomp/beat the cat into oblivion when it hesitates.

 

I absolutely agree that the cat was so poorly built as to be unrealistic -- and that a different build is called for.

 

Well, my scenario is supposed to be a straight up "vanilla" melee. Punches, kicks, body slams, elbow strikes, etc (any and all maneuvers the human can attempt) versus bites, slashes/rakes, etc. I went ahead just now and clarified this in the first post.

 

Your PRE tactic is useless in a purely theoretical melee situation relying solely on physical attributes or even against a cat body that simply isn't phased by the Presence attack (either because they're so berserk it doesn't factor in or because the servant of Bastet/shapeshifter has enough ot a mental defense to make it ineffective).

[Surrealone]

Well, my scenario is supposed to be a straight up "vanilla" melee. Punches, kicks, body slams, elbow strikes, etc (any and all maneuvers the human can attempt) versus bites, slashes/rakes, etc.

 

Your PRE tactic is useless in a purely theoretical melee situation relying solely on physical attributes or even against a cat body that isn't phased by the Presence attack (either because they're so berserk it doesn't factor in or because the servant of Bastet/shapeshifter has enough ot a mental defense to make it ineffective).

Yea?  Because Martial artists never yell when they strike (to channel energy, breathe properly, AND inspire fear) in melee, do they?  And because soldiers on the battlefield never yell as they attack in melee, do they?  And because PRE attacks aren't a valid game mechanic in the blank room, are they?

 

You seem hell-bent on finding ways to paint a picture where only the cat can win -- to the point of insisting on no tool use by the human while changing the conditions for the cat (enraged? beserk? possessed?).  The moment it's anything (like enraged/possessed/beserk) other than the 'official' cat build you've been comparing ... it's not the 'official' cat build and your so-called stress test between the 'official' cat build and normal human ... is done-in due to your change in conditions.

 

I'm done here, as this is like talking to a wall onto which an Illusionist has cast the second level Magic Mouth spell.

[Ragitsu]

You seem hell-bent on finding ways to paint a picture where only the cat can win

 

What the human had at hand was always stated in the first post (ordinary clothing). It was not "finding ways", it is the parameter. Should working within the confines infuriate you, then, by all means...feel free to not participate. Stating that weapons (excuse me, "tools") ensures a win sidesteps the issue that an officially statted creature is an inordinate threat against someone in a situation that isn't exactly fantastical.

 

Now, I admit I forgot to factor in the Presence attack and clarify that the scenario is a melee fight absent of extraneous options beyond hitting and defending. That I went ahead and clarified in the first post.

[Tasha]

I understood why you put the word monsters in quotes, because people typically don't consider a house cat a monster, but why the word bestiary? Is it not an actual bestiary?

 

The defensiveness happens because I apparently am not getting on board with the "use weapons and all is fine" line of argument when a human shouldn't have to in order to avoid an unceremonious death from a small domesticated pet that isn't venomous and is much more fragile by comparison.

 

Have the human wear a jacket that's worth ~1rDef (if a Cat's claws are 1pip HKA, then a thick sweatshirt or a ski jacket is probably about 1rPD). Then the Cat can't do any damage to the human unless they start attacking the "Head" (ie neck, face, crown)

[Roter Baron]

I understood why you put the word monsters in quotes, because people typically don't consider a house cat a monster, but why the word bestiary? Is it not an actual bestiary?

 

The defensiveness happens because I apparently am not getting on board with the "use weapons and all is fine" line of argument when a human shouldn't have to in order to avoid an unceremonious death from a small domesticated pet that isn't venomous and is much more fragile by comparison.

 

 

 

 

The heck? Are those supposed to regular rattlesnakes?

 

 

 

Yes, and don't ask about the Dex 25, SPD 4, OCV 8, DCV 6, pony-sized scorpion with Running 24m and 1/2D6 HKA (poison is extra).

 

Them critters sure are plenty radioactive, pilgrim!

[bigbywolfe]

Have the human wear a jacket that's worth ~1rDef (if a Cat's claws are 1pip HKA, then a thick sweatshirt or a ski jacket is probably about 1rPD). Then the Cat can't do any damage to the human unless they start attacking the "Head" (ie neck, face, crown)

We all already know that using gear gives the human an advantage. It's been pointed out repeatedly and he's acknowledged the fact. It still utterly ignored his point.

[Hugh Neilson]

Flex your imagination a little. Perhaps the cat is infected with a disease that makes it berserk. Maybe the cat is possessed by a malicious servant of Bastet. Heck, a shapeshifter might be in cat form when they're pressed into attacking someone that finds out their secret.

All very cinematic. So is a furious wildcat whose scratches and bites can kill a human. Cinematic realism does cut both ways. We're used to pretty little domestic housecats which do not actually attack humans with intent to kill.

 

And, once again, the reality is that games don't simulate all the vagaries of reality well: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2193000/Pictured-The-horrifying-injuries-inflicted-pensioner-80-CAT-tended-garden.html must also be possible, and if we limit the cat to, say, a ad6 Hand Attack, it is now incapable of inflicting BOD damage on a human - yet clearly a cat can inflict BOD damage on a human.

 

Most games encounter the same issue. At the lowest end of the scale, the ability to do any damage is significantly more powerful than having no ability to inflict damage. Absent a willingness to reduce damage to fractional points, or limit damage done by some creatures to only certain hit locations (I'm pretty sure a cat getting its claws into a human throat or eyes could inflict some pretty serious damage - the news article shows the face can be pretty injured), we are stuck with an animal which is more lethal than we would expect, or one incapable of killing the prey it does kill and eat in real life.

 

Could we build scaling rules that are much more "realistic"? Sure. We could give the cat a KA ("claws and teeth") that does 1 BOD only if it gets a head hit on a human-sized target, and does 1/4 BOD max otherwise, and we can give mice and rats 1/8 and 1/4 of a BOD so the cat can kill them. That would let us stat out the killing damage of a stapler or a papercut, as well. But it's a lot of effort for a corner case.

[Hugh Neilson]

Much of the issue is similar to that with the fastball. The cat is afforded an 8 DCV, which means the human trying to strike it has less than a 10% likelihood, when in reality the human would likely Grab the cat and, having done so, squeeze the life out of it.

[Surrealone]

What the human had at hand was always stated in the first post (ordinary clothing). It was not "finding ways", it is the parameter. Should working within the confines infuriate you, then, by all means...feel free to not participate. Stating that weapons (excuse me, "tools") ensures a win sidesteps the issue that an officially statted creature is an inordinate threat against someone in a situation that isn't exactly fantastical.

 

Now, I admit I forgot to factor in the Presence attack and clarify that the scenario is a melee fight absent of extraneous options beyond hitting and defending. That I went ahead and clarified in the first post.

In my book your after-the-fact change in parameters to rule out PRE attacks constitutes 'finding ways' for the cat to win, as does elimination of equipment that characters get without paying CP (per RAW) at the heroic and lower game level.  Likewise, indicating the cat is infected/possessed/enraged also constitutes changes after the fact ... to produce a scenario where the cat would attack instead of run/hide/cower (in your blank room's corner, presumably) from a hostile human -- something most animals would have a complication to avoid.

 

Those are the things that infuriate me -- because each time someone brings up a scenario that doesn't fall into line with your assertion, you change something to rule out such scenario to drive only at your assertion and rule out other options.  You might as well have a conversation with yourself if you're going to do that.

 

 

Much of the issue is similar to that with the fastball. The cat is afforded an 8 DCV, which means the human trying to strike it has less than a 10% likelihood, when in reality the human would likely Grab the cat and, having done so, squeeze the life out of it.

The so-called 'official' cat is absolutely built badly/poorly.  That said there are ways to overcome the issue (like tool use, PRE attacks, etc.), but the OP has conveniently ruled such things out so that only the picture he wants painted by the numbers can be painted.

 

Thus, it's a so-called 'stress test' in an artificial vacuum that doesn't really represent how the scenario would play out if all appropriate mechanics from the game were in play. i.e. Ragitsu has introduced skew/bias into the scenario by eliminating options that would normally be present.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The reason kitty has 8 DCV is the shrinking rules are extremely questionable in Hero.  The rule of +2 DCV for half size is excessive and has always bothered me.  It makes competitive target shooting and fighting anything small basically impossible.  Shoot a quarter sized target at 150 yards, sniper boy.  After 1800 rounds, he gets lucky and rolls a 3.

[Roter Baron]

Another question: Why do I need stats for cats, mice, regular tiny ants etc. anyway? They are NO MATCH for a grown human, especially not people like Conman the Rogue, Sir Kill-a-lot, , Kansas Jones, James Blond or a Nerdy Knight with a Blazer Sword - or Captain Healthy!

 

So, they are as much danger and excitment  in an adventure as a dripping faucet or the wind in the willows. Don't need stats for that either.

[Surrealone]

The rule of +2 DCV for half size is excessive and has always bothered me.

Yup, shrinking is downright gross as a power.  That said, a hand becomes a very effective AoE against something the size of a dime ... and an arm or a leg becomes a good AoE against something half the size of an arm or a leg.  A solid GM will adjudicate accordingly -- but the fact that one has to do so smacks of an inherent problem with shrinking.

 

Frankly, growth and shrinking have never been done well.  (I absolutely despite the template approach for growth in 6e.)

[Ragitsu]

In my book your after-the-fact change in parameters to rule out PRE attacks constitutes 'finding ways' for the cat to win, as does elimination of equipment that characters get without paying CP (per RAW) at the heroic and lower game level.  Likewise, indicating the cat is infected/possessed/enraged also constitutes changes after the fact ... to produce a scenario where the cat would attack instead of run/hide/cower (in your blank room's corner, presumably) from a hostile human -- something most animals would have a complication to avoid.

 

Oh for fu-

 

The scenario featuring a lack of equipment was set in stone to begin with. The PRE slipup was amended soon after (do note that PRE was never brought up during the Homo Sapien versus Musca Domestica matchup).

 

IT IS WHAT IT IS. You don't have to like it. You don't have to participate. It's meant to showcase two beings' physical capabilities against one another in a head-to-head melee with the official stats as-is.

[Ragitsu]

Another question: Why do I need stats for cats, mice, regular tiny ants etc. anyway? They are NO MATCH for a grown human, especially not people like Conman the Rogue, Sir Kill-a-lot, , Kansas Jones, James Blond or a Nerdy Knight with a Blazer Sword - or Captain Healthy!

 

So, they are as much danger and excitment  in an adventure as a dripping faucet or the wind in the willows. Don't need stats for that either.

 

Depends on the game you're playing in. A heroic barbarian won't be in danger likely due to their innate PD, but a character in a "normals" campaign that is caught unaware would be much more at risk from house cats or house cat-sized predators.

 

The system is meant to cover a wide band of campaign realism/lethality, is it not?

 

I don't know about mice, but rats can be a problem if you're in a horror campaign and Nosferatu starts summoning them .

[Christopher R Taylor]

Another question: Why do I need stats for cats, mice, regular tiny ants etc. anyway?

We don't and I don't bother.  I think statting anything really small and weak out is sort of silly, and only do so for very unusual or supernatural things.

[kukuli]

I am running a 5er pulp/steampunk game and one of my PCs is a talking cat.  We used the bestiary cat as a basis.  Add the Flurry of Claws and she is a cuisenart. But one thing that no one is bringing up is reduced penetration (AAGH, THE MATH, THE MATH!). Against resistant defenses, she does much less body. She had her first fight with a thick skinned ratman last session and got knocked out for the first time. Maybe a small animal limitation on claws of "treat clothing as rPD for this attack" would help.

[Durzan Malakim]

I think all that this discussion has revealed is that model of felis catus provided by the HERO System Bestiary is more than capable of winning a fight against a baseline human who is not allowed to use tactics and abilities that the rules would otherwise provide them (free gear and PRE attacks). Nothing prevents you from building better models of either opponent using existing rules. Most people just don't have a need to model such a fight in their games. More likely they model a power like Killing Attack with a special effect such as "swarm of berserk cats attack the target."

[Tasha]

The reason kitty has 8 DCV is the shrinking rules are extremely questionable in Hero.  The rule of +2 DCV for half size is excessive and has always bothered me.  It makes competitive target shooting and fighting anything small basically impossible.  Shoot a quarter sized target at 150 yards, sniper boy.  After 1800 rounds, he gets lucky and rolls a 3.

 

It's an artifact of the game starting as a Supers RPG. So for that, +2DCV per level of Shrinking made sense. When the rules were used to make critters and monsters for Fantasy Hero, some of the things that worked great in a Supers RPG started to not work as well.

[Tasha]

Another question: Why do I need stats for cats, mice, regular tiny ants etc. anyway? They are NO MATCH for a grown human, especially not people like Conman the Rogue, Sir Kill-a-lot, , Kansas Jones, James Blond or a Nerdy Knight with a Blazer Sword - or Captain Healthy!

 

So, they are as much danger and excitment  in an adventure as a dripping faucet or the wind in the willows. Don't need stats for that either.

Some of the stats for small animals like Cats, Mice, Dogs etc. are there for Fantasy Genre RPGs. Where many Wizards will have an animal familiar. Usually built to be better than a basic animal, but still recognizable as the base animal

[eepjr24]

I agree with the above on shrinking, it really does need some tweaks for average creatures, whether in Fantasy, Dark Champions or almost anywhere where you would actually care about the stats for an average animal. Some of the published builds are just utter dreck.

 

- E