Build Review and Aid: Being harder to track

[massey]

Teleport still leaves tracks every place you stop at.

 

Are you seriously asking if buying IPE for Running is more expensive then Teleport?

Even Invisibility (Tracking) would be hard pressed to come up to any decent sized teleport.

 

I don't even want to think about the penalties to the tracking skill for following a teleporter through the woods.  No conventional tracking (skill) methods are going to work.  At that point, you need tracking bought with a power.

 

No, I'm the one who first suggested IPE for Running (in this thread).  I'm saying that these Desolid/Change Environment/regular Invisibility constructs are off base.

 

 

Well that and its conceptually mistaken to teleport when you're clearly passing through the area.

 

First, I disagree as far as special effects go.  Teleport even has a "must pass through intervening terrain" limitation you can take.  Second, my point about teleport is that it's a cost comparison.  If the character could take teleport or flight for less points than your power construct, then your power construct is too expensive.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Second, my point about teleport is that it's a cost comparison.  If the character could take teleport or flight for less points than your power construct, then your power construct is too expensive.

 

I guess that's an approach.  I always try to approach my builds based on what they do and how they look in the game world, not how much they cost.

 

I don't even want to think about the penalties to the tracking skill for following a teleporter through the woods.

 

Unless you're jumping a really long ways, you're not going to fool a good bloodhound's nose.  Plus, if you pass through the intervening space, then I'd say you're leaving traces the whole distance...

[massey]

I guess that's an approach.  I always try to approach my builds based on what they do and how they look in the game world, not how much they cost.

 

Unless you're jumping a really long ways, you're not going to fool a good bloodhound's nose.  Plus, if you pass through the intervening space, then I'd say you're leaving traces the whole distance...

 

A cost comparison should tell you if you're overthinking the build.  Too many times I see people trying to force one way of thinking, and something that should be a simple flavor ability of limited utility ends up costing far more points than it is worth.  You should always compare to existing powers to make sure you aren't doing that.

 

The bloodhound has tracking scent, as a power.  He doesn't have to follow my trail, he can smell me from far away.  Teleport isn't going to stop Mind Scan either, or telescopic vision.  The important part is not leaving tracks, breaking twigs, etc, which is what the traditional D&D ability does.

[Greywind]

And with Teleport, while you have to pass through the intervening space, the only place you would be leaving visible signs is at the beginning and the end of the move. Because that is what Teleport does. The Pass Through doesn't let you go through walls or closed doors or other possible barriers.

[Christopher]

First, I disagree as far as special effects go.  Teleport even has a "must pass through intervening terrain" limitation you can take.  Second, my point about teleport is that it's a cost comparison.  If the character could take teleport or flight for less points than your power construct, then your power construct is too expensive.

The exact pricing depends on at least two factors:

The campaign and how common/nessasry tacking is.

If that does affect alternative sense like "Smell with Tracking Sense Modifier" too.

 

Is there not a common figure of speech that says the opposite to what you say: "If you have two ways of building something odd that does not fit into any specific power and one of them is more expensive, asume it is the more expensive one that is the right way."?

 

There can be no absolute answer or pricing to this question. It depends on too many variables. If that was not the case, the book would propably have made a stab at it.

 

"The bloodhound has tracking scent, as a power.  He doesn't have to follow my trail, he can smell me from far away."

You are tracking because your traget is out of direct perception range. If you can smell him already it stopped being a tracking case that moment. It became a simple perception case (it is just asumed that at some point you just flip over from tracking to a successfully perception result).

 

And with Teleport, while you have to pass through the intervening space, the only place you would be leaving visible signs is at the beginning and the end of the move. Because that is what Teleport does. The Pass Through doesn't let you go through walls or closed doors or other possible barriers.

So if a Vampire uses his Mistform (defined as Teleport, passes through Intervening space) passes a bush, would he leave a scent trail on said bush or not?

I mean he is obviously not normal mist. Normal mist does not not move intentionally or transforms back into vampires.

With senses we have to keep stuff simple. Otherwise we end up in a quagmire of special effect vs special effect discussions. That is one of the big dangers with Senses and Sense-Affecting powers.

 

 

A similar cases is Stealth. Stealth against animals (like in the Forrest) includes placing yourself downwind so they can not smell you. Or masking your scent and your gears scent one way or the other. Even hiding a bear trap involves some "scent management".

As the enemy can use special cases regulary, the counter tactics will become known and used more often. If you can teleport through the jungle others can too, and the people doing the tracking will have developed tricks and techniques to counter that.

If animals can use that trick (because it is a magic world), there would even be animals with apropirate evolved counters. If not, some mad mage or creative god will have created a "Telport Tracking Bloodhound" species that you just use instead of real world bloodhounds.

If it is common so will the counters be, making it cheaper.

If it is uncommon so will the counters be, meaning it becomes a bigger advantage and has to become more expensive.

[smoelf]

I'd probably build it with invisibility, and a limitation.  The CE build works in that it would (with linger) allow a character to lay down a path that was difficult to use tracking on, and then over time it becomes impossible to track anyway, but it feels odd to me.

 

That actually makes a lot of sense. So giving it a limitation (Self Only) would in a way negate the nature of the power by applying it to the individual instead of an area as it normally would,

[Hugh Neilson]

I guess that's an approach.  I always try to approach my builds based on what they do and how they look in the game world, not how much they cost.

If Blast cost 15 points per 1d6, and Killing Attacks cost 5, then there would be a clear balance problem in the game.

 

As long as every character gets the same character points, and we consider them even remotely close to a balancing tool, point costs need to be commensurate with utility.

[Greywind]

The exact pricing depends on at least two factors:

The campaign and how common/nessasry tacking is.

If that does affect alternative sense like "Smell with Tracking Sense Modifier" too.

 

Is there not a common figure of speech that says the opposite to what you say: "If you have two ways of building something odd that does not fit into any specific power and one of them is more expensive, asume it is the more expensive one that is the right way."?

 

There can be no absolute answer or pricing to this question. It depends on too many variables. If that was not the case, the book would propably have made a stab at it.

 

"The bloodhound has tracking scent, as a power.  He doesn't have to follow my trail, he can smell me from far away."

You are tracking because your traget is out of direct perception range. If you can smell him already it stopped being a tracking case that moment. It became a simple perception case (it is just asumed that at some point you just flip over from tracking to a successfully perception result).

 

So if a Vampire uses his Mistform (defined as Teleport, passes through Intervening space) passes a bush, would he leave a scent trail on said bush or not?

I mean he is obviously not normal mist. Normal mist does not not move intentionally or transforms back into vampires.

With senses we have to keep stuff simple. Otherwise we end up in a quagmire of special effect vs special effect discussions. That is one of the big dangers with Senses and Sense-Affecting powers.

 

 

A similar cases is Stealth. Stealth against animals (like in the Forrest) includes placing yourself downwind so they can not smell you. Or masking your scent and your gears scent one way or the other. Even hiding a bear trap involves some "scent management".

As the enemy can use special cases regulary, the counter tactics will become known and used more often. If you can teleport through the jungle others can too, and the people doing the tracking will have developed tricks and techniques to counter that.

If animals can use that trick (because it is a magic world), there would even be animals with apropirate evolved counters. If not, some mad mage or creative god will have created a "Telport Tracking Bloodhound" species that you just use instead of real world bloodhounds.

If it is common so will the counters be, making it cheaper.

If it is uncommon so will the counters be, meaning it becomes a bigger advantage and has to become more expensive.

 

There is also the possibility of over-thinking the issue.

[bigdamnhero]

A cost comparison should tell you if you're overthinking the build.  Too many times I see people trying to force one way of thinking, and something that should be a simple flavor ability of limited utility ends up costing far more points than it is worth.  You should always compare to existing powers to make sure you aren't doing that..

Well stated. "Can't be tracked" is a neat flavor ability, but honestly how often is it going to be useful in most games, compared to another 5 points of STR or another CSL or an additional d6 worth of Blast? So if your build for it comes in at 10+ points, then I'd say its time to look for a different build whose price lines up better with its usefulness.

 

Is there not a common figure of speech that says the opposite to what you say: "If you have two ways of building something odd that does not fit into any specific power and one of them is more expensive, asume it is the more expensive one that is the right way."?

"If two Powers (or other game elements) are equally valid ways to create a particular ability, you must use the more expensive of the two." [6e2 p297, or 5ER p559]. Which I always thought was kindof a stupid thing to say, really; there's always a way to over-think things and make them cost more than they need to. I understand why that rule is there, to limit outright munchkinism. But I feel like most experienced Hero GMs can tell the difference between "I'm using a weird build to make this ability cheaper than it ought to be" vs "I'm using a weird build so this ability doesn't cost more than it's actually worth."

[bigdamnhero]

"The bloodhound has tracking scent, as a power.  He doesn't have to follow my trail, he can smell me from far away."

You are tracking because your traget is out of direct perception range. If you can smell him already it stopped being a tracking case that moment. It became a simple perception case (it is just asumed that at some point you just flip over from tracking to a successfully perception result).

Right. The bloodhound isn't smelling you, they're following the scent trail you left behind. So if you Teleport, the bloodhound would lose the scent at the point where you teleported out. (Same idea as crossing a river.) Of course if you're only Teleporting 30m or so, it wouldn't take that long for them to search around the last-smelled spot until they pick up your trail again, but you probably slowed them down at least. And if you have Megascale Teleport, that may well make it impossible for them to pick up your scent again.

 

So if a Vampire uses his Mistform (defined as Teleport, passes through Intervening space) passes a bush, would he leave a scent trail on said bush or not?

I mean he is obviously not normal mist. Normal mist does not not move intentionally or transforms back into vampires.

Hmm...the mist might well leave some kind of scent trace, but it might not smell the same as his physical form. So tracking might be possible if you had a bloodhound trained to recognize vampire mist scent trails,* or some kind of mystical detention gadget. Depends on sfx obviously. I've seen some speedster builds that use Teleport Passes Through Intervening Space, and in that case the character is actually crossing the space normally, they're just doing it too fast to see. So in that case I'd probably allow a normal Tracking Roll.

 

* Vampire Mist Scent Trails the name of my next band.

 

There is also the possibility of over-thinking the issue.

Isn't that kindof our motto here?

[kukuli]

Maybe I'm being simplistic  but the Environmental Movement and Trackless Stride Talents are both in Fantasy Hero Complete. A taste/smell  image: No human scent, might be needed if you are scent tracking. Is there something missing  from  this combination? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

It comes down to special effect for a lot of things, but I'd suggest that "must pass through intervening space" involves contact with that intervening space, however its defined.

[Greywind]

Really? What if part of that teleport ability is based on flight? No contact required. MIGHT leave a scent trail.

[kukuli]

Or maybe disguise (or other appropriate Knowlege skill) to represent using plants, scat or other substances to disguise one's scent instead of useing images. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Really? What if part of that teleport ability is based on flight? No contact required. MIGHT leave a scent trail.

 

Even if you fly, you're passing through the area, and hence contacting something, even if its the air.  The very limitation means that you aren't simply moving from point A to point B without moving through the intervening space.

 

Or maybe disguise (or other appropriate Knowlege skill) to represent using plants, scat or other substances to disguise one's scent instead of useing images. 

 

Along those lines, a skill vs skill contest using tracking would probably help, too.  This is a real world thing, hiding your passage through an area with skill.

[massey]

The special effects do not matter for purposes of comparing point costs. That is the entire point. Bob should not be able to do the same thing as Tom, for only half the points, simply because he chose a special effect that the GM liked better.

 

Tom wants to be able to use the old D&D "pass without trace" ability. The GM comes up with stuff suggested in this thread, like limited Invisibility or even Desolid. Tom doesn't know any better and says okay. The ability costs Tom a lot of points.

 

Bob buys Teleport with some noncom multiples and the safe blind teleport advantage. Bob also can't be tracked by nonmagical means, and he can also do a whole lot of other stuff too. Bob spends less points than Tom to get a better power.

[dsatow]

I just quickly went through the thread, so here are my $0.02 but I note I might have missed something in the quick read.

 

1) Desol could work, would not leave a smell as per the description in the power on 6E1 190.  Teleportation must pass through path leaving a trail would depend on the GM but I would say that would still be legal.  Still, I would recommend the Running with Invisible Power effects.  I think that simulates the effect best.

 

2) You could also use the catch all 1d6 Transform Cosmetic, from trail to no trail, only affects personal trail.  That would work but also allow them to wipe out a trail they made earlier.

 

3) You could also just create a custom power or perk, say 5 points for -5 to be tracked physically.

[InfiniteKarma]

I really don't get Invisible Power Effects a the build for this. It makes using the power undetectable to normal senses, it doesn't make the results disappear. An IPE fire attack against a book would still leave a charred and damaged book, even if the flame didn't visibly originate from the character. How is movement different?

 

You're trying to hide an entire person from a specific set of senses, that really sounds like a form of Invisibility, to me.

[bigdamnhero]

I really don't get Invisible Power Effects a the build for this. It makes using the power undetectable to normal senses, it doesn't make the results disappear. An IPE fire attack against a book would still leave a charred and damaged book, even if the flame didn't visibly originate from the character. How is movement different?

 

You're trying to hide an entire person from a specific set of senses, that really sounds like a form of Invisibility, to me.

Except you're not really hiding the Character - if they are within perception range, they will be perceived normally. What you're hiding is the fact that they moved through an area. 631 p338 sez "Applying Invisible Power Effects to a Power conceals the Activity, Source, Path, Target, Special Effects, and Intensity of a Power...It does not conceal the Target Effect or the Source Effect (if any)." In this case we're only worried about hiding the Path.

 

Using IPE in this manner is not something explicitly stated in RAW, but I think it's easy to extrapolate from it.

[Christopher]

Well stated. "Can't be tracked" is a neat flavor ability, but honestly how often is it going to be useful in most games, compared to another 5 points of STR or another CSL or an additional d6 worth of Blast? So if your build for it comes in at 10+ points, then I'd say its time to look for a different build whose price lines up better with its usefulness.

And we are back at the part where the question is:

What is the campaign? How likely is tracking? How many types of tracking does this cover?

D&D has the advantage that it is a somewhat defiend setting. It is high Fantasy with magic, Dwarves and Dragons. Hero lacks such a affordance. The same power can have totally different pricing.

 

The special effects do not matter for purposes of comparing point costs. That is the entire point. Bob should not be able to do the same thing as Tom, for only half the points, simply because he chose a special effect that the GM liked better.

 

Tom wants to be able to use the old D&D "pass without trace" ability. The GM comes up with stuff suggested in this thread, like limited Invisibility or even Desolid. Tom doesn't know any better and says okay. The ability costs Tom a lot of points.

 

Bob buys Teleport with some noncom multiples and the safe blind teleport advantage. Bob also can't be tracked by nonmagical means, and he can also do a whole lot of other stuff too. Bob spends less points than Tom to get a better power.

That is a general mistake in pricing power and latest when Bob builds his power it will become obvious something is out of whack.

 

I really don't get Invisible Power Effects a the build for this. It makes using the power undetectable to normal senses, it doesn't make the results disappear. An IPE fire attack against a book would still leave a charred and damaged book, even if the flame didn't visibly originate from the character. How is movement different?

 

You're trying to hide an entire person from a specific set of senses, that really sounds like a form of Invisibility, to me.

If you put IPE (Hearing) on running, you would be able to move without making sounds (no Stealth check for not being heard; or at least a severely easier one).

There are rules for hidden use of powers and wheter those are Obvious, Inobvious or Invisible to a certain sense (6E1 125)

The more Active Points, the harder to hide. The less obvious, the easier to "use Stealthy".

 

Attack powers are both obvious and high AP by default.

If you do make it IPE, people would have issues tracking the attack back to his originator and he might be able to use it from Stealth/invisibility without breaking it.

If I use an obvious attack power from stealth/invisibility, the target still has the chance to detect me and use his full DCV.