Odd defensive power

[GCMorris]

The vampiric seductress I'm building has as her main defense the innate ability to make people not want to attack her. How can I handle this?

[Christopher]

The vampiric seductress I'm building has as her main defense the innate ability to make people not want to attack her. How can I handle this?

Any of the Defensve Powers, Psionic (-1/2; APG I)

It only becomes odd if you think to much about how to simulate the special effect. Then you end up with stuff like a AoE Suspress, AVAD (PD to Mental Defense or NND) to every attacker, but only when targetting her.

 

The special effect of any defense power is inherently arbitrary.

Combat Luck is literally just normal defenses with some advatnages. With the special effects including "just being lucky" too "dodging in the last moment".

What maters is the game effect - taking less damag.

 

Depending on the Genre and prevelance of Knockback, you may also want to shorten the KB distance. You could use either Damage Negation or Knockback Resistance for this.

And generally the consensus appears to be that DN can be quite bothersome to use in actuall combat if not prepared for, so KB Resistance might be simpler.

[Doc Democracy]

Personally, I think this is almost a kind of invisibility power. Rather than making an intelligence roll to counter the targeting penalty the player should have to make an EGO or PRE roll to overcome the reluctance to attack the seductress.

 

That covers the in combat stuff. She is not invisible, unless you are talking mirrors and cameras, to live people. If they are going to attack, they find themselves very reluctant to do so. If not already in combat, then I would be backing this up with a single mind control attack continuously being made, possibly with gradual effect, simply to say lets sit down and talk. I might have a gradual effect power to reduce the will of those She talks to, setting them up for conversation and seduction attempts. In fact I might have a linked power, if she begins conversing with a target, one power focuses on reducing the will of that target, the other is targetted on anyone else in the area to give the vampire and her target "some space and privacy". :-)

 

This is like a social quicksand, once you are in it gets worse and worse. And your mates abandon you...

 

Obviously much of the effectiveness of this power should disappear when faced with the appropriate holy symbol, aggressively brandished...or something like that.

 

Doc

[Armitage]

Champions Powers and the UNTIL Superpowers Database II had "Beauty Too Wondrous to Harm" in the Hyper-Attributes chapter.  It was pretty expensive.

 

Mind Control, Radius, 0 END, Constant, Persistent, No Range, Set Effect (Don't hurt me; -1), Only Versus Persons Who Look At Character (-1/2).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Could just be as simple as DCV: they just don't want to harm her so they swing wide.  An enormous presence attack to get people to not bother you could work, too.

[bigdamnhero]

Champions Powers and the UNTIL Superpowers Database II had "Beauty Too Wondrous to Harm" in the Hyper-Attributes chapter.  It was pretty expensive.

 

Mind Control, Radius, 0 END, Constant, Persistent, No Range, Set Effect (Don't hurt me; -1), Only Versus Persons Who Look At Character (-1/2).

Yep. 12d6 MC @ 16m Radius for 180 AP, 60 RP. Depending on your game you might get away with trimming that down to maybe 8d6, but that's still 120 AP, and 16m isn't a lot of area. Putting AOE on Mental Powers gets real pricey real fast, so it's usually better to try and find another way to simulate the same sfx.

 

I've tried building it as MC, no AOE, Triggered by whenever someone targets the character, which gets a little more affordable; the catch there is the Trigger only resets once per Phase at most, so if more than one person wants to shoot at you, you can only affect one per Phase. (Unless the GM let's you Spread Mental Powers, which is a whole `nother thread.)

 

Hmmm...what about Deflection or Reflection, with ACV works vs MCV instead of CV?

[Armitage]

There was also the Fearful Haste power in the Emotion Control Powers chapter.  The character induces brief panic in an opponent so they flinch when attacking, making them less accurate.  It could easily be modified to represent an unwillingness to attack due to attractiveness.

 

The power was

+4 DCV, Costs Endurance (-½), Instant (-½), Only Versus Designated Person’s Attacks (-1), Only Versus Beings With Minds/Emotions (-½). Total cost: 6 points.

 

If it's a constant ongoing effect, you can drop Costs Endurance and Instant.  If it affects everyone who sees her, the single person Limitation can be dropped.  If it's based on sexual attraction instead of brute force compulsion, you can add a Limitation that it only affects people who would be attracted to the character.  I vaguely recall seeing that Limitation somewhere, but I can't remember where.  I thought it was on Pheromone Control, but apparently not.  I remember it on some power that played on attraction, but only if the target's sexual orientation was such that they could be attracted to the character in the first place.

 

"You don't want to hit me..." (inhales deeply) "...do you?"

"Sorry lady, you're not my type."  POW!

[Doc Democracy]

I remember a Hammer House of Horror film where the hero brandishes his crucifix at a vampire who was, prior to conversion, jewish.  The response was a chuckle and "boy do you have the wrong vampire!".  And there would be a crucial HERO definition point.  Does the holy symbol matter?  Does it have to relate to the person wielding the power (as I would rule - the power to repel comes from the god you worship, not the prior beliefs of the vampire) or is the vampire repelled by exposure to the symbol they relate with holiness (puts clerics in a very difficult position!).

 

This comes down to whether you are trying to impose an effect - like the invisibility or the additional DCV - that happens because that is what you want or to have a power that has a more variable impact depending on the characteristics of those watching.  The second is sometimes more satisfying for the gamist in me but the former is more satisfying for the narrativist and simulationist.  :-)

 

Doc

[whitekeys]

Your special effect is not defined in your original post, but it sounds like some kind of psionic/mind control ability, or something fear based. Having a mental/psychological aspect to this power can be a special effect of PRE. I would suggest purchasing high PRE, possibly with some limitations, and have the vampire PRE Attack people into not wanting to attack her. You can apply any special effect you desire to this. It covers Constant and AoE without any extra rules or advantages. Then you can combine this with Striking Appearance and other Defensive powers with the same special effect to bolster the power. 

 

However, it should be noted that PRE Attacks and other PRE-based skills should not be used on PCs, as per the suggestion in the rules. If this character is supposed to be a nemesis to the PCs, it might be frustrating for them. If this is a character you're playing, keep going! It's totally awesome.

[Duke Bushido]

You've now seen several different ways to do this (for what it's worth, I like Doc D's idea).

 

But as noted above, it all boils down to _how_ she does it: what is the special effect? Is it pheremonal? Is it Mind Control? Is it a 'certain something' about her? When I first read your question, I really put it as a strength of personality (too sexy/charming/exciting/whatever to consider as an opponent), which I tend to default to a Presence-based build.

 

But other builds are just as valid. How does she do it, and what, _specifically (i.e., in game terms)_, is it that she does?

 

Duke

[GCMorris]

Well I should be more specific I guess. When people go to attack her they feel an aversion to harming her in any way. Even neutralizing her without violence is abhorrent to them.

[eepjr24]

Well I should be more specific I guess. When people go to attack her they feel an aversion to harming her in any way. Even neutralizing her without violence is abhorrent to them.

1. What if they are a half mile away with a sniper rifle?

2. What if they truly believe that she will be better off dead?

3. What if they are also a vampire, are they immune?

4. What if the being in question is a robot or an alien or otherwise not of human physiology?

 

You need to provide details, not just a broad brush, if you really want help creating something that will fit the concept. Is it pheromone based? Hypnosis? Mind Control? Does it have a particular range? How do you defend against it? 

 

- E

[GCMorris]

Its line of sight. Only directly targeting her, enemies will have no problem targeting others with area effect attacks if she is in the area. I think I'm wanting something requiring willpower to defend against it so perhaps a presence attack would fit the bill. You guys have more experience at this than I do. I'm still exploring.

[eepjr24]

So it requires a positive action on her part (Presence Attack) and will last for a limited time after that? Generally the effects of presence are measured in seconds unless you have a house rule that says otherwise.

 

Something like that is likely going to get very expensive if you try to buy it as Mind Control. That, Transform or Change Environment are probably the best model for what you describe (target is changed in a what that makes them not want to attack). If you can deal with something a bit less nuanced (target doesn't want to hit her so they miss when they shoot) you could just go with the above power of +10 DCV, Psychic. 

 

Invisibility is a poor fit because they could still attack her or neutralize her (wide area paint blast, etc) which goes against your described model. The others would need an AE of 1-2 miles (depending on how you define line of sight).

 

- E

[Doc Democracy]

Make it a role playing challenge. Transform them into the same person with an additional DNPC - the vampire....

[Nolgroth]

Change Environment -x to Ego roll, only to overcome aversion to attacking vampire (-1), No range, AoE, blah blah blah

[Christopher]

Its line of sight. Only directly targeting her, enemies will have no problem targeting others with area effect attacks if she is in the area. I think I'm wanting something requiring willpower to defend against it so perhaps a presence attack would fit the bill. You guys have more experience at this than I do. I'm still exploring.

Since it does not affect AoE Attacks, I would once again say "DCV, Psionic (-1/2)".

It would still affect either selective versions of AoE (as those roll against DCV afer hitting the area), but that might actually fit right.

 

What exactly do you mean with "It is line of sight"?

Enemies naturally need to see her, to target her directly (otherwise "lack of targetting sense" penalties apply).

Does it mean she must see them?

What if they see each other indriectly, like in a mirror/refelctive shield/other reflective surface?

Do you want it to work like a less extreme version of the good old "Gorgon sight attack"?

[bigdamnhero]

Only directly targeting her, enemies will have no problem targeting others with area effect attacks if she is in the area.

I'm not sure that part makes sense to me; I "feel an aversion to harming her in any way" but I'm okay with chucking a grenade right next to her, knowing full well she's in the blast radius?

 

Either way if you really want it to be LOS, the only way to make it even remotely affordable is with a Trigger that takes no time to activate and automatically resets after each use. At least that way you don't have to pay for Constant & Persistent.

 

Beauty Too Wondrous To Harm:  Mind Control 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Triggered by targeting the character with an attack; +1) (125 Active Points); Set Effect (Don't hurt me) (-1), Only versus persons who look at character (-1/2) [50 RP]

 

I didn't say it'd be cheap, but what you're looking for is a pretty powerful effect. I'd use Standard Effect so you don't have to make a new effect roll every time she's targeted, tho you'd still have to make an MCV Attack Roll, and then the target gets a Breakout Roll based on how badly they would want to hurt her in the absence of this power. I might even alter the required effect level based on the lethality of the attack, so Killing Attacks might require EGO+30, Normal Attacks might need EGO+20 and Entangles and such might only need EGO+10?

 

A PRE Attack might be easier, and certainly cheaper, but I'm leery of using PRE Attacks as a cheap way of getting Mind Control-like effects, which this clearly is.

[Duke Bushido]

Its line of sight. Only directly targeting her, enemies will have no problem targeting others with area effect attacks if she is in the area.

That's a little odd, all things considered.

 

Unless (and please clarify, as it might suggest an entirely different build) it requires eye contact or something along those lines, in which case you still have the "cover your eyes and fire blindly" option open to you.

 

 

I think I'm wanting something requiring willpower to defend against it so perhaps a presence attack would fit the bill. You guys have more experience at this than I do. I'm still exploring.

 

So it requires a positive action on her part (Presence Attack)

Excellent question. Does it require any action on her part, or is it Triggered or something like that?

 

Is it Always On, or does she have to will it to happen?

 

Generally the effects of presence are measured in seconds unless you have a house rule that says otherwise.

 

This bears keeping in mind, particularly when you're trying to create the build.

 

 

Something like that is likely going to get very expensive if you try to buy it as Mind Control.

True, but it might still be the way to go, depending on what the Player sees happening in story, effects-wise.

 

 

My first reaction, pending further information, is not going to be terribly popular, I think, but it feels right with what I understand thus far. My first suggestion is Presence Attack, with the desired affect being not cowing or intimidating, but instead "care for me" or something to that effect. As eepjr24 noted, though: this only lasts for seconds. If it's not something that's going to continue to happen, over and over again (the Always On I mentioned above, it will quickly fade. Even if it is, it can still fade, depending on how you treat long-term Presence Attacks. We've always allowed the "familiarity allows you to get used to it" model. Within minutes, the affected Characters are going to start getting bonuses to their own Presence.

 

 

I would go a bit further (here's the unpopular part) since you want to have some kind of willpower is a defense thing, and offer up a Presence Attack versus _EGO_, as EGO is most often used to model a person's emotions, mental health, strength and presence of mind, and of course, willpower.

 

 

Then that brings up something else: EGO takes us straight to Mind Control, as eepjr24 posted, and Mind Control can get pretty pricey in a hurry, even if it's bought with a single command: "Love me!" Limitation.

 

However, this could be modified a bit. It wouldn't be as powerful over-all, but it would have a greater potential to work _initially_ but quickly fade:

 

Again, this is why we really need to know more about how you see this working in-game. But how about Mind Control, Single Command: "shoot my friend first!"

 

Yeah, it kind of stinks for a "hero," but it helps a bit by first and foremost meaning that you really don't need as high a success. Presumably the enemy of you is the enemy of your friend (there's a corollary for ya! ) and he will most likely be willing to shoot anyone on your team. It won't take as much convincing to make you last, so you'll _initially_ get a bit of protecting. Even if you're by yourself, the GM may (I say _may_, now ) rule the person under your Mind Control will spend a half-phase (or maybe even a full one) looking for the friend you just told him about before realizing he's been duped and opening fire on you.

 

These are all just suggestions, mind you. It would be very helpful to have some insight into just what you see as likely or unlikely to happen when this Power comes into play, how it's triggered, and what other Characters do as a response to being affected.

 

 

Duke

[GCMorris]

Perhaps this is too difficult to explain properly and. Perhaps it's too expensive to build.

 

Line of sight being the attackers seeing her they have a very hard time bringing themselves to harm her "oh I can't hurt her". Only when specifically targeting her.

 

Maybe I should just let this one go, lol.

[Christopher]

Perhaps this is too difficult to explain properly and. Perhaps it's too expensive to build.

 

Line of sight being the attackers seeing her they have a very hard time bringing themselves to harm her "oh I can't hurt her". Only when specifically targeting her.

 

Maybe I should just let this one go, lol.

That is "+X DCV, attacker must see character (-?), Psionic (-1/2)". Wich is a really odd limitation for a defense, but should do exactly what you described. I would consider the limitation value to be very low. After all you kind of have to see the target if you want to attack to begin with.

What does it do/doesn't do right?

 

There are a lot of Fringe cases to potentially consider:

What if an attacker closes thier Eyes to "fire blindly" or "fire indirectly"? I am pretty sure the rules mention the "Aim via reflection" thing you would have to use against the classical Medusa.

What if an attacker has an alternate targetting sense?

What if the attacker is something like a Trap, Triggered Power or a Mindless Automaton?

 

AoE Selective/Non-Selective. Actually that the non-selective are affected usually makes less sense. With Selective you choose who to attack explicitly, so this power should affect the attacker subconsciously (and thus the CV of the attack).

[Doc Democracy]

GC, dont give up. There are a few good ideas out there for you to latch onto and try out. See what works in gameplay and, if it doesn't, have an open conversation with the players to say what you were disappointed about and say that you are going to change the build to better approximate the gameplay you are looking to achieve. Dont be shy about getting things wrong. The players often love it when they are involved in the building that way.

 

I think I understand. When part of a group the effect is minimal if present at all. When an opponent thinks about hurting the vampire then the effect will kick in, to impact any use of any power intended to hurt the vampire. It is a bit of meta-play that the players might know something the characters do not and, if they throw an attack where the overt intent is to harm the vampire, they will be affected.

 

 

Doc

[bigdamnhero]

That is "+X DCV, attacker must see character (-?), Psionic (-1/2)". Wich is a really odd limitation for a defense, but should do exactly what you described.

Well not quite. Shooting at and missing the character is not the same thing as not targeting the character in the first place, if only in that the latter means the attacker can attack someone else or at least save the END/Charge for later. But I agree if you're looking for something more affordable, this might be a good substitute.

 

GC, dont give up. There are a few good ideas out there for you to latch onto and try out.

Agreed. It's a valid concept that's very in-genre, and it's not even that hard to build, it's just expensive. And assuming this is for an NPC who really cares how much it costs? It's not like GMs are working on a limited point budget.

[Nolgroth]

Go back to my post above, I still see Change Environment has a valid build for this. With the -x to a Characteristic Roll, it forces the character to have to make a Characteristic Roll (Ego in this case) in order to attack. There is also an easy and cheap counter to this in the form of Resistance (Talent). So some examples;

 

Sanctuary Aura

Vampire Glamour

(Total: 33 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) Change Environment (-4 to EGO Roll), Does not work if vampire is attacking character, DNPCs or other people that the character is protective of (+0), Alternate Combat Value (uses OMCV against DMCV; +1/4), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2), Selective (+1/4) (33 Active Points); Only to prevent direct action being taken against vampire (-1), Target must be able to see vampire (-1/4)

END Cost: 0

 

Notes:

• -4 to Ego Roll because -4 is a lot. You can adjust this as you wish.
• Gave a 0 Limitation to the Does Not Work If.... Limitation as I consider this part of the "Reasonably Common Way to Turn Off Power" metarule.
• Seems to work against Mental Combat. Can be changed or removed as needed.
• Seems to always be on, though I did not give the Always On Limitation because that would not be limiting. 
• AoE Radius, Selective so that each character not only gets the Ego roll to resist, but forces the vampire to successfully attack the individual character. 8m because short range.
• Guessed on the two Custom Limitations. Those are the values I would use if it were my game.
• The Only to Prevent Direct Action... Limitation simply spells out the condition by which one must make an Ego roll. To simply walk in and chit chat, an Ego roll would not be needed for instance.
• Can also be used as a generic Sanctuary (D&D) spell. Just take out the Target must be able to see vampire Limitation, and replace Reduced END/Persistent with Time Limit (or just have it be sustained by END).

 

 

And now for the counter...

 

I'm Not Impressed

(Total: 4 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Resistance to Vampire Glamour (+4 to roll)

END Cost: 0

 

Note:

• According to the sidebar on 6E1, Page 114, Resistance can be used for things besides resisting interrogation.

 

 

I'm quite sure that my builds do not contain exactly the right mixture of Power Modifiers, but it is a place to start. And yes, this is probably some horribly imbalanced build that is going to disrupt the proper flow of cosmic energy and cause a "divide by zero" level calamity if you use it. Good luck.

[eepjr24]

Go back to my post above, I still see Change Environment has a valid build for this. With the -x to a Characteristic Roll, it forces the character to have to make a Characteristic Roll (Ego in this case) in order to attack. There is also an easy and cheap counter to this in the form of Resistance (Talent). So some examples;

 

Sanctuary Aura

Vampire Glamour

(Total: 33 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) Change Environment (-4 to EGO Roll), Does not work if vampire is attacking character, DNPCs or other people that the character is protective of (+0), Alternate Combat Value (uses OMCV against DMCV; +1/4), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (8m Radius; +1/2), Selective (+1/4) (33 Active Points); Only to prevent direct action being taken against vampire (-1), Target must be able to see vampire (-1/4)

END Cost: 0

That seems like a good start. The big thing I would see as likely needing changed would be the AOE. I'd go with: AOE: 4m (+1/4), Megascale (+1) 1m=1km. That would take it out to just past the limit of aimed gunfire, even with scopes, etc for the current world records. That would take AP to 42, RP to 19. That's a deal in my mind.

 

- E