Resurrecting the Create Power

[Christopher R Taylor]

In Fantasy Hero (1985 first edition) they created basically a new game using Hero -- the first "Powered by Hero" product.  In the process, they changed the power set by giving the old standbys new names such as "Ward" for increased DCV.  One of the offerings was the "Create" power, which allowed characters to generate magical items.  It used the Independent limitation (new for Fantasy Hero) to generate a new item that was separate from the creator, which anyone could then use.

 

In 5th edition Fantasy Hero, Steve Long picked up the same concept and offered it as a suggested method for building magical items in a campaign (also brought up in FH 6th).  SO I want to use this in my Fantasy Hero setting and I need to tighten down the concept. Instead of presenting it as a "Differing modifiers" variant, I wanted to present it as an actual power again.

 

So what I need from everyone here is to look over this writeup and examine it for potential problems, missing information, misleading writeups, and most of all how you would break it and ruin my campaign.  So here it is

 

CREATE

Create is an Instant Special Power which costs Long Term Endurance and has no Range.

 

This power allows characters to generate an object from nothing, assigning it specific abilities and properties.  This allows the creation of an independent power or set of powers which can be used by anyone.

 

Create requires an object to “contain” the independent power, but this object is not a focus; it is the target of the power.  By using the Create power on an object, the power then generates a new object with the properties determined by the construction of the Create.

 

To use Create, generate a power or power set as desired including all appropriate modifiers.  This created power is what the target independent item that the Create power produces will have.  The Real Cost of this power is then treated as the Base Cost of the Create power.

 

Example: Bob the Wizard wants to create a magic wand.  He creates the power of the wand as a Blast of 5d6 energy (fire damage; 25 points).  He assigns it Radius 6m, Gestures (swish and flick), Charges (12), Focus (OAF), and Requires a Skill Roll (Magic Skill Roll) for a grand total  of +½ advantage and -1¾ limitation (Active Cost 37, Real Cost 13).

 

This is then the Base Cost for the Create power: 13 points.  All modifiers the Create power requires are applied to the Base Cost of 13, which then results in the final item of a Magical Wand of Fireballs. 

 

With this Base Cost, the Create power then is used to build a power which produces the desired effect each time.

 

Any modifiers applied to the Create power do not affect the resulting product in any way; they only apply to the process of generating the item.  The final product has an active cost not of the Create spell, but of the power that it produces (the Magic Wand above would have 37 active points to dispel, for example).

 

Create is a slow process.  For every 10 active points in the power, it takes a day to create.  This can be reduced in time by a +¼ advantage for each step down the time chart (for 5 hours per 10 active points, it is a +¼ advantage, and so on).  Similarly, the process can be made slower, with a -¼ limitation per step up the time chart (so a Create that takes 1 week per 10 active points would grant a -¼ limitation).

 

This time is not rounded down; an 11 Active Point Create takes a base 2 days, just as at 19 Active Points.

 

Endurance is paid at the conclusion of the Create process and is Long Term Endurance, not ordinary Endurance or mana.  The taxing process of generating a magical item is so great that it takes hours, not moments to recover (REC per day in END).

 

Example: Bob’s Wand of Fireballs above starts out with a Create Spell of 13 base points.  To this, Bob applies a +¼ advantage to make the item take hours rather than days.  The Active Cost of this Create power is then 16 points (still 2 increments of time or 10 hours).

 

With Concentrate, Requires a roll, and Bob’s additional limitations of gestures, incantation, and OIF magical lab, the total limitations for the Create is -2½.  The Real Cost ends up being 5 points.

 

Now, in my campaign setting, I also require concentrate ½DCV and Requires a Roll: Magic Skill Roll to create this item.  It cannot be bought down to 0 END Cost or to cost normal END.  Further, people need to pay character points to produce each new magical item using Create (5, in the above example).

 

So is this good enough, or is more info needed, and how could you abuse this?

[DasBroot]

Followers with the power.

 

No joke. I've seen someone try and use it in one of my games using independent foci.

 

One follower had a magic sword - to lend to his boss.

 

One gave him a shield.

 

One a suit of armor.

 

They were armorers of an order of Paladins, you see, and the character was the last of said Order.

 

Who totally didn't want to do it to get 240 active points of powers for a fraction of that in followers.  

 

Honest.

[Tasha]

That's totally confusing. I don't understand how your power works at all. Your example is as clear as black, muddy glass in a pool of hardened lava.

I never got WHY a PC would EVER pay for a power that allows you to spend YOUR character points to make a magic item. Basically blowing all of your points permanently. Monte Cook stole this for D&D 3 and spending XP to make magic was bogus. Penalizing casters for creating items, Items that are then used by people who never had to drain their competence for making the item. Which is why Paizo removed this shit in Pathfinder.

I think having a create power is really a waste. It was a HUGE misstep by Steve Peterson, I was glad when it disappeared in 4th with Independent following in 6e

[Christopher R Taylor]

Followers is a good point; should be restricted to devices, not people.

[Armitage]

I toyed with the idea of a Transform-based magic item creation power, based on Tobias "The Toad" Vandaleur's Incantatory Imbuement spell in Champions Villains Vol. 2.

 

Transform Normal Object to Magic Item.  Adding 10 Active Points via Transform adds 2 to the target's effective BODY for the Transform, so you start with a 1d6+1 Severe Transform with Standard Effect (4 BODY).  Make it All Or Nothing and Damage Over Time, with the damage occurring once per day, and the number of increments determines how powerful an item you can create.  With 10 increments, for example, you can enchant up to 100 Active Points over the course of 10 days.  Buying more Transform dice would let you enchant items faster, like some Feats in 3.5 D&D allow.  You have to know how to create a particular item, requiring use of the Inventor Skill, or finding someone's research, and it requires very expensive Expendable Foci.

 

There's still the question of the base BODY of the object though.  Maybe big objects are just harder to enchant, so they can't be imbued with as much power.

 

 

EDIT:  A version I quickly threw together in Hero Designer.

 

Enchant Item:  Severe Transform 1d6+1 (standard effect: 4 points) (Normal Object into Magical Item, Healed by breaking object), Improved Results Group (Known Magical Items; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (35 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Extremely Difficult to obtain new Focus; -2), All Or Nothing (-1/2), Damage Over Time (10 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Day, can be negated by Ending Concentration; -1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Limited Target (High quality objects suitable for enchantment; -1/4).  Total cost: 7 points.

 

You're stuck in the lab for the entire 10 days, or the enchantment fails.

[Lucius]

That's totally confusing. I don't understand how your power works at all. Your example is as clear as black, muddy glass in a pool of hardened lava.

 

I have to agree. For example

 

Further, people need to pay character points to produce each new magical item using Create (5, in the above example).

Why 5, exactly?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Creating a Wand of Summon Palindromedary

[Christopher R Taylor]

Why 5, exactly?

 

Good point, that isn't very clear (its the real cost of the Create) -- any more examples?

 

I think expanding on Das Broot's point, no vehicles or bases can be made using Create either might be wise.  You could, in theory, with GM approval, make an item that created a vehicle (like a boat that folds up into a pocket sized item).  Its already a cost reducer to use real cost for the base, so another cost reducer of 1/5 is a bit too efficient.

 

[Cantriped]

for one of my Projects I rewrote "Object Creation" as a power.

I used a combination of the Rules for Summon, and the rules for Creating Items from Fantasy Hero ​(5th and 6th, both use the exact same rule, word for word). When you created a Vehicle or Base, the cost was based on what was suggested for Summon (2 APs per 5 CP). When you created an Item built as a single power (such as a weapon or suit of armor), the cost was equal to the highest APs value of the powers used to create it. The power Costs LTE, and took 1 day per 10 APs to activate (as per FH 5th & 6th). You could Dispel Created Objects, but they had no duration or task limit.

[steriaca]

Have you looked into the power "Object Creation" on pages 32-34 of the Advance Player's Guide 2?

 

It won't allow you to create weapons or armour, but anything mundane can be created with that power.

[Chris Goodwin]

The wording for Differing Modifiers specifies that the ability to create the created Power becomes a Power of its own with these certain characteristics.  If I were going to make it a separate Create Power (and I've strongly considered it) I would just recycle the wording from FH 1e and Differing Modifiers.  I also wouldn't build in the time or LTE requirements as part of the base Create Power; I'd specify those as part of the campaign guidelines.

[Hugh Neilson]

I never got WHY a PC would EVER pay for a power that allows you to spend YOUR character points to make a magic item. Basically blowing all of your points permanently.

Well, the huge Independent limitation means you effectively get way more points, and the GM won't cripple your character by actually enforcing the limitation and permanently removing the powers, maybe even using them against you, right? And if he does, you retire the now underpowered character and bring in a new one with a bunch more Independent abilities to get back to being overpowered.

 

Monte Cook stole this for D&D 3 and spending XP to make magic was bogus. Penalizing casters for creating items, Items that are then used by people who never had to drain their competence for making the item. Which is why Paizo removed this in Pathfinder.

Actually, in 3e, it worked a bit differently. My initial thinking matched yours, but if you award xp by the rules, the Wizard who is 50 xp below gaining a level, when the rest of the group is 50 xp above, catches up and passes the other guys the next time xp is awarded. So you could craftily craft magic items to gain xp faster, instead of slower, than your peers.

[Tasha]

Actually, in 3e, it worked a bit differently. My initial thinking matched yours, but if you award xp by the rules, the Wizard who is 50 xp below gaining a level, when the rest of the group is 50 xp above, catches up and passes the other guys the next time xp is awarded. So you could craftily craft magic items to gain xp faster, instead of slower, than your peers.

Except that i NEVER saw it work that way. Just casters who lagged further and further behind Melee as they supplied the potions and other magic items that kept the party alive.

[Tasha]

IMHO creating a power to make items is really overthinking stuff. It also gets back to the mentality of having to write up every little stupid thing. Do you require a Swordsmith to have create to make weapons, do you require Powered Armor Heroine to have this power when she starts to manufacture her police powered armor? This is an XP tax for players who want to craft items. It overcomplicates something that doesn't need the complication IMHO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Except that i NEVER saw it work that way. Just casters who lagged further and further behind Melee as they supplied the potions and other magic items that kept the party alive.

While my recollection of the math was that it worked, we never saw much crafting in 3e games, so the xp penalty never saw playtesting.

 

Ultimately, I think you and I are on the same page - the item crafter should not lag behind the rest of the group in order to enhance the power of each character in the group. The removal of xp costs in Pathfinder solved the problem (if there was one) and the perception (there definitely was one) quite effectively.

 

In Hero, if gear costs no CP, it becomes a more challenging issue - what constrains our Crafter?

 

It seems like the character for whom the gear is crafted is acquiring customized gear, which would typically cost character points, so why should that character (rather than the creator of the item) not pay points for that custom gear, just as he would if he acquired it from some backstory NPC?

 

Alternatively, if the characters can acquire gear for money, the character acquiring the additional gear is essentially gaining wealth, so perhaps he should pay the xp for the wealth. Now, if all of the PCs have similar wealth (paid for by cps or gained in adventuring), they all similar resources to devote to gear.

 

In D&D, a PC can spend character points (in the form of a feat) to reduce the cost of certain gear. In Hero, they can just pay points for wealth or gear directly.

[Christopher R Taylor]

How many points the object costs and how that's dealt with are a separate issue -- handled by other mechanics in the setting.  Suffice it to say that you never lose character points.  I'm mostly interested in whether the writeup and the concept is clear enough and how people could abuse it.

[Tasha]

While my recollection of the math was that it worked, we never saw much crafting in 3e games, so the xp penalty never saw playtesting.

 

Ultimately, I think you and I are on the same page - the item crafter should not lag behind the rest of the group in order to enhance the power of each character in the group. The removal of xp costs in Pathfinder solved the problem (if there was one) and the perception (there definitely was one) quite effectively.

 

In Hero, if gear costs no CP, it becomes a more challenging issue - what constrains our Crafter?

 

It seems like the character for whom the gear is crafted is acquiring customized gear, which would typically cost character points, so why should that character (rather than the creator of the item) not pay points for that custom gear, just as he would if he acquired it from some backstory NPC?

 

Alternatively, if the characters can acquire gear for money, the character acquiring the additional gear is essentially gaining wealth, so perhaps he should pay the xp for the wealth. Now, if all of the PCs have similar wealth (paid for by cps or gained in adventuring), they all similar resources to devote to gear.

 

In D&D, a PC can spend character points (in the form of a feat) to reduce the cost of certain gear. In Hero, they can just pay points for wealth or gear directly.

 

 

How do we deal with the Gun Bunny that buys special sights, better ammo and a bajillion other upgrades? It's paid for by Campaign Time, and money. Why does the fact that it's "magic" make it any different. It's understood that equipment will get damaged etc. It's what happens to equipment in Heroic Games. PCs ARE allowed to pay for gear that they don't want to be taken from them.

[Tasha]

How many points the object costs and how that's dealt with are a separate issue -- handled by other mechanics in the setting.  Suffice it to say that you never lose character points.  I'm mostly interested in whether the writeup and the concept is clear enough and how people could abuse it.

 

I totally didn't understand your writeup at all. It was like you were assuming that I understood things you didn't include in the writeup.

 

Also, a power to make things is still a crafting tax on the crafter PC. You are making them pay for something that only occasionally gets used for IMHO no really good reason.

[steriaca]

Well, the "Object Creation" power on page 32-34 of APG2 has the object created cost 20 Character Points for the begining 2PD, ED, and BODY object, +10 points makes the object complex, +10 more points to make the object extremely complex, +3 points to increse the objects defence (PD or ED) by 2 or BODY by 3, and +5 points to increse it by 1 cubic meter OR 2x number of objects at one time.

 

And the golden rule for this power: "characters cannot use Object Creation to create objects when doing so could reasonably be considered the special effect of some other power."

 

This, the player can't;

Create an object to use as an attack (Object Creation us not an Attack Power);

Create Automata, Computers, Vehicles, or Bases (thoes are perks covered by there own rules);

Create any object which mimics a power (Want a wall? Use Barrier. Hungry? Life Support, Diminished Eating, Useable By Others.)

 

So...how could you use this power in a fantasy setting?

[Lucius]

How many points the object costs and how that's dealt with are a separate issue -- handled by other mechanics in the setting.  Suffice it to say that you never lose character points.  I'm mostly interested in whether the writeup and the concept is clear enough and how people could abuse it.

 

I'm not clear on it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Lucius Alexander must be confused if he can't even find the way to abuse something

[Christopher R Taylor]

I totally didn't understand your writeup at all. 

...

I'm not clear on it.

 

 

 

Is it possible you could be more specific?

[Chris Goodwin]

IMHO creating a power to make items is really overthinking stuff. It also gets back to the mentality of having to write up every little stupid thing. Do you require a Swordsmith to have create to make weapons, do you require Powered Armor Heroine to have this power when she starts to manufacture her police powered armor? This is an XP tax for players who want to craft items. It overcomplicates something that doesn't need the complication IMHO.

 

I see the potential use for it, but I just consider it as part of Differing Modifiers.  If you can grant someone the ability to fly by touching them, or if you can grant someone the ability to fly by making a Ring of Flying for them, you're still granting them the ability to fly.  The way I see it is, if they want to keep the ability to fly, they need to pay the points for it.  

 

Tasha and Christopher, I know you both know all of this, partly because I've said it a few times here on the boards over the years.    For everyone else's benefit...

 

To have a Ring of Flying, you don't need to buy the Create Ring of Flying Power, any more than your Champions character with powered armor needs to buy a Create Powered Armor.  If you want your character to be able to create and/or repair the armor there are plenty of ways you can do that: Gadgeteering (or Enchanting) Skill, Inventor (or Enchanting) Skill, Mechanic (or Enchanting) Skill, PS: Build Powered Armor (or Ring of Flying), etc.  You could also (to repair) buy Healing vs. high tech equipment (or magic rings), RSR Gadgeteering (or Enchanting).  Or you could buy Create Powered Armor (or Ring of Flying).

 

Fantasy Hero, from 1e through its 5e incarnation, came with the somewhat odd assumption that for a magical item, Points Must Be Paid!, in order to avoid the undesirable Wizards Flooding The Land With Magic Items!  When combined with Independent, it made it necessary to have points "locked" into the item, and gave points some kind of weird semi-in-game rationalization, but also an additional bit of weirdness in that some magical substances or components would come with points built in for the purposes of creating magic items.  And Independent was Independent; even if you gave the item to someone else, it still came out of your points and not theirs.  It was more like the points represented the magic than that the points represented how powerful your character was.  FH 1e had the Create effect, which meant that if you wanted to make a magic item you had to buy both the item -- permanently sinking your points -- and the ability to create it.  In FH 1e I had a character who wore a magically armored jumpsuit that she made herself; I gave her the Create spell for it and paid the points for it as Independent.  I didn't think about it much because I was 16 at the time, but also because that's how Fantasy Hero worked.  (Christopher, I know you're explicitly not requiring characters to sink points as a precondition of your Create Power, which is excellent!)

 

This was different from Champions, by a lot.  The default idea in Champions was that you wouldn't pick up a cop's gun except in an extreme emergency, partly because that was how superhero comics worked.  If you did find an item that you wanted to and could use, you'd have to pay the points for it.  It didn't really matter whether it was a 9mm or a pair of handcuffs or a suit of powered armor.  The item was there, and it didn't disappear just because someone didn't pay the points; it was written down either in the main rulebook or in the adventure, with a writeup and a point cost, and if you wanted to keep it you'd pay the points.   If you had the Gadgeteering Skill, you could build a gun or handcuffs or powered armor, even though it would take time and materials and a lab; you could essentially build your own Powers.  And you'd have to pay the points for them, if you wanted to keep them -- but you could also build a blaster or force field belt, or whatever, for your buddy, and if they wanted to keep it?  They'd have to pay the points for it.  

 

Here and now, there are a couple of different ways you could go.  You could buy a Create Power using Differing Modifiers.  You could treat the output of that Power as if it were a Champions item; you could use it for a scene and then discard it.  We're not saying anything about the special effect of the Create, nor any Limitations on it that might change it; we're assuming you activate the Create and poof, there's a healing potion or powered armor suit or ring of flying or whatever.  That in itself might create its own set of weirdness; that could turn you into a walking powered armor (or whatever) factory, and the GM would be well within their rights to say No, You Cannot Do That.  

 

But, after all, this is why we have GMs.  We don't need the sort of weirdness that comes from a magic item not existing unless points are spent, with the logical yet weird follow-on that magical substances or components have built in experience points.  We don't need to break the paradigm of points measures power.  GM says no, end of discussion.  

 

We can also have fantasy worlds where enchanting magic items requires the Enchantment Skill, which is the fantasy world equivalent of Gadgeteering.  And building magic items requires time and materials and a lab.  Just like the powered armor might require exotic materials like orange argonite for the power reactor catalyst, the magic item can require exotic materials like eye of newt, the tears of a burglar, and oak, ash, and yew.  

 

What I would use Create / Differing Modifiers for is if, for instance, I had a character who could create healing potions for their friends, but also carried around a few bottles of their own.  I'd buy -- and pay points for -- the Healing Potion with three charges, because that's how many I tend to carry around for myself.  I'd build the Create ability using Differing Modifiers to churn out a single bottle of the stuff.  I might put Extra Time, Focus (exotic materials), and so on, on that, because that's what it takes to make a healing potion.  But once I've done that, I can hand a bottle to one of my friends, or I can sell it for a few coin.  (How many fantasy GMs allow characters to buy healing potions for coin, but not have to pay points for them?)  As a GM, I might want the other characters to pay a point or three for "ready access to healing potions" as a Perk, or I might require them to pay points for the ability to have one Charge of a healing potion that recovers under special circumstances (which itself might only cost a point or three).  Or I might just ignore it all together.  

 

I think, and I will say that by observation I think Steve Long agrees with me, that the way to limit characters from being magic item factories is to Just Say No.  Put requirements on it for Extra Time and exotic materials and a lab, and even other stuff like phases of the moon, the right configuration of stars, and so on.  I don't think the Differing Modifiers or Create Power is necessary, but I think it is a useful tool for the toolset and can be used in some cool and interesting ways, and shouldn't be discounted for that reason.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't think the Differing Modifiers or Create Power is necessary, but I think it is a useful tool for the toolset and can be used in some cool and interesting ways, and shouldn't be discounted for that reason.  

 

Exactly.  For the record, in Jolrhos Fantasy Hero, there are many ways to create magic items; you are not restricted to the "create" power to do so.  It is one option among several including the use of tradeskills such as alchemy, adding runes to an item, binding a spirit to an item to enchant it, and so on.  However, in addition to these options, Create allows a spellcaster to create specific items that they desire without needing trades etc.  The GM is strongly encouraged repeatedly to check and restrict what you can make, because things can get out of hand in a hurry.

 

I just don't want to post my entire book's section on enchanting (and the related trades, herbs, etc) to give background.

 

But I want the Create power out there as a tool among the others and was hoping for input on the writeup so that I can avoid problems I am not foreseeing with how it is written up.  At present, sadly, I have no game to test this stuff out in any longer so I was hoping to tap into this community for assistance.

[Lucius]

Is it possible you could be more specific?

Possibly.

 

"This power allows characters to generate an object from nothing"

"Create requires an object"

 

So, which is it - create a object from nothing, or have to start with an already existing object?

 

" By using the Create power on an object, the power then generates a new object with the properties determined by the construction of the Create"

 

This is sounding an awful lot like Transform.

 

" Further, people need to pay character points to produce each new magical item using Create (5, in the above example)."

 

Okay let me see if I've got it now:

 

Basically, this lets a character create a magic wand that would ordinarily cost 13 pts, but instead only costs 5? So if I wanted to just churn out magic wands I could push one out every time I got 5 XP, and give or sell it or use it (thus getting a 13 real point power for a cost of 5 real points?)

 

If I understand correctly, I get only ONE wand for each expenditure of 5 pts?

 

Hm. Suppose I get a total of 10 sticks suitable for wand making and lay them out in a row. Now I take My saved up XP and buy a Create Power with the Autofire Advantage (with suitable "surtax" of course.) Can I now generate ten wands with the same three day act of Creation?

 

You say Create uses Long Term END. What if I put a Create Power on Charges?

 

As for how to abuse it - please read again what DasBroot said, more carefully. You seem to think he's talking about using the Create power to Create Followers, but he's not. He's talking about buying regular Followers as normal with the Follower Perk, but building those Followers with the Create Power so that one Follower who has a Create Magic Sword Power can give you a magic sword, another with a Create Magic Shield Power can give you a magic shield, etc. etc.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I can give you a magic palindromedary

[massey]

I totally didn't understand your writeup at all. It was like you were assuming that I understood things you didn't include in the writeup.

 

Also, a power to make things is still a crafting tax on the crafter PC. You are making them pay for something that only occasionally gets used for IMHO no really good reason.

 

As I understand it (and I don't know that I'm right), you basically just buy a power as a Focus, with all the appropriate modifiers, and then you can build that Focus again and again.  It costs you End and time to make a new one.

 

So, basically, just like you were buying the power normally.  Example:

 

Magic armor

8/8 Armor, hardened (+1/4)

+2 DCV

OIF (-1/2)

 

40 active points, 27 real cost

 

So your "Create Magic Armor" power would have a Base Cost of 27, and you could apply Advantages to speed it up.  It would take 4 days to complete, and cost 3 LTE.  So you're really just buying the power, and the Create rules are telling you how long it take to build one.

 

I don't see anything wrong with it, but I don't see how it is any different from saying "it takes 1 day per 10 active points to make a focus".  It can just be a campaign rule.

[Chris Goodwin]

Ah, I got what he was saying straightaway, but that might be because I've written up created items using Differing Modifiers.  

 

The Created Power may require a Focus; the Create ability may require a Focus, which might be different from what the Created Power uses.  The Create ability might also require an unenchanted "blank" version of the created Power's Focus.  

 

So, let's say your Create Power is the ability to enchant a sword.  It might have as its Focus the bulky spell book, caster's magical staff, eleven herbs and spices, and so on, as well as the unenchanted sword.  The sword might in fact be considered an Expendable Focus for purposes of the Create Power.  

 

Once the Create Power is completely activated, you now have the enchanted sword, which uses the sword as its OAF.  

 

The Create Power can, but doesn't necessarily, create an object from thin air.  If the Create Enchanted Sword Power didn't require the unenchanted sword as a Focus, then it could be said to be creating the enchanted sword from nothing.