Perfect 3 and 18's

[dsatow]

I am wondering about crits and fumbles in a superhero game.  Max damage for a crit in a superhero game just really isn't a good idea (my 15d6 haymaker does 30 Body and 90 stun with 18-28" of knock back for another 28-18d6) in my eyes.  

 

So I am thinking, a fumble might cause an automatic unluck roll.  Not too bad there especially if you don't have unluck.  

 

And a crit would allow you to either re-roll all 1s or change them to 3s.  So I am wondering what people think.

[Netzilla]

Seems reasonable to me.  I'm also in the camp of not liking max damage on crits due to how excessive it gets.  One thing we tried for a while was counting all 1s and 2s as 3s on a crit but ulitmately decided on the free haymaker (+4DCs) as we found it quicker and easier in play.

[bigdamnhero]

...but ulitmately decided on the free haymaker (+4DCs) as we found it quicker and easier in play.

I like it!

[Ninja-Bear]

Seems reasonable to me. I'm also in the camp of not liking max damage on crits due to how excessive it gets. One thing we tried for a while was counting all 1s and 2s as 3s on a crit but ulitmately decided on the free haymaker (+4DCs) as we found it quicker and easier in play.

I like it but seriously how often are you rolling 3s for max damage to be an issue?

[BoloOfEarth]

I've used the 3 = max damage route for decades.  Yes, it can one-shot KO the target, but they're quite rare enough that it hasn't really been a major problem.

 

Having 18 be an auto fail is a given.  I also have the effect be particularly disadvantageous to the roller.  If rolling a to-hit and at all possible, the attack would hit a teammate (but do rolled damage, not max damage).  Again, this is rare enough that it hasn't been a game killer.

[Netzilla]

I like it but seriously how often are you rolling 3s for max damage to be an issue?

 

It was a multi-step process over a few different campaigns:

 

1) Crit on 3 is completely random and ignores character skill.  We didn't care for that, as we felt it broke verisimilitude to have a rank amateur (FAM 8-) and a world-class master (17-) have exactly the same odds of a critical success.  So we looked for alternative options.

 

2) We tried rolling half or less of what you need.  At that point, max damage was coming up way too often and it made OCV much more important than DCs except at extreme differences.

 

3) We changed the crit effect to 1s and 2s count as 3s and found the balance much better.  However, we found that computing half what you needed to roll plus the act of remembering 1s and 2s were 3s to be a bit cumbersome.

 

4)   So, we came up with the idea that three-of-a-kind counted as a crit (success or failure) and that the effect of +4DCs both worked reasonably elegantly for our tastes as a crit-success effect.

[Doc Democracy]

Haven't played this yet but intend to at the next opportunity.  This comes from several discussions here on the boards. Rather than re-rolling etc, the natural 3 adds dice to the damage pool - one d6 for ever 1 the roll is made by (with a minimum of 3d6 normal).  you then use the best dice for your damage.  If you would normally roll 12d6 and need 11 to hit the a natural 3 will allow you to roll 20d6 and choose the 12 you want to use for damage.

 

I like the way this might allow either maximising STUN or excluding enough 6s to ensure no BODY damage is likely.

[Ninja-Bear]

 

It was a multi-step process over a few different campaigns:

 

1) Crit on 3 is completely random and ignores character skill. We didn't care for that, as we felt it broke verisimilitude to have a rank amateur (FAM 8-) and a world-class master (17-) have exactly the same odds of a critical success. So we looked for alternative /quote]

 

Of course ymmv but that is "reality". Blind squirrel getting a nut and all. ; )

 

And on second thought how is that any different than two people having different rolls and making their rolls? For example what do you do when 8- guy makes his roll and blocks 17- guy? Its annoying but happens.

[Netzilla]

Of course ymmv but that is "reality". Blind squirrel getting a nut and all. ; )

 

And on second thought how is that any different than two people having different rolls and making their rolls? For example what do you do when 8- guy makes his roll and blocks 17- guy? Its annoying but happens.

The big difference is that the odds are different. Everyone has the same odds of rolling a 3. The odds of the 8- guy succeeding by more than the 17- are much less than the converse. In fact, if the 17- guy rolls 11 or less, it's impossible for the 8- guy to succeed by more.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I treat block differently than the rules; you roll to block the DCV the target hit.  So if they roll really well, hit a DCV of like 11, then you have to hit that 11 to block their attack as well.  That elminates the super accurate guy rolling a 3 and getting blocked by someone who barely makes their roll.

[Ninja-Bear]

I treat block differently than the rules; you roll to block the DCV the target hit. So if they roll really well, hit a DCV of like 11, then you have to hit that 11 to block their attack as well. That elminates the super accurate guy rolling a 3 and getting blocked by someone who barely makes their roll.

Wondering do you do that with other skill contests?

[Cantriped]

I treat block differently than the rules; you roll to block the DCV the target hit.  So if they roll really well, hit a DCV of like 11, then you have to hit that 11 to block their attack as well.  That elminates the super accurate guy rolling a 3 and getting blocked by someone who barely makes their roll.

That seems like it would make Block far less reliable (and therefore less viable as a tactic).

 

 

Wondering do you do that with other skill contests?

I sometimes run with the house rule that for some Skill Versus Skill Contests, you simply compare Degree of Success to determine victor. Which is almost identical to the standard rule, except that if the first character fails, they can still "succeed" if the second character fails by more. For example:

 

Han Solo quickly shoves a naughty Halo-Reel under the seat then Leah returns to the Ship. The GM determines this is a Concealment Versus Perception Contest. Han rolls Concealment and Fails by 1 (due to all those penalties for rushing no doubt). However when Leah rolls Perception she Fails by 3 (the force was not with her). Han succeeds, and Leah doesn't find the Naughty Halo-Reel, even though a corner of it was obviously sticking out from under the seat or it is still making muffled raunchy noises or something.

[Ninja-Bear]

All I can say is that if you guys don't like making 3 & 18 special then i don't think you'll like WEGs wild die! A 1 on the wild die (different colored D6 than the rest) is a fumble. They have several rule options, the one I use is it subtracts the highest die. A 6 makes it a exploding die. You add the 6 and reroll it. If it comes up a 6 again then add it and reroll it. Keep doing this until the wild die is no longer a 6. The Force is fickle.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That seems like it would make Block far less reliable (and therefore less viable as a tactic).

 

In practice, it hasn't changed a thing about how often people try a block, or use it.  What it has done is make a really, really good fighter less likely to be blocked by joe blow.

[Ninja-Bear]

In practice, it hasn't changed a thing about how often people try a block, or use it. What it has done is make a really, really good fighter less likely to be blocked by joe blow.

So before you used this rule (which i think i saw as an optional rule). Did you really have that many blocks made by 8- guy? Was it really an issue or a perceived one? Really curious.

[Cantriped]

In practice, it hasn't changed a thing about how often people try a block, or use it.  What it has done is make a really, really good fighter less likely to be blocked by joe blow.

Considering you normally have to hit the enemy's current OCV to block them (as modified by CSLs and Maneuvers), it is already much harder for Joe Blow to block an Epic Martial Artist than another Joe Blow, because the Epic Martial Artist is going to have a much higher current OCV.

[bigdamnhero]

It sounds like it's less about the difference in skill levels than about the frustration of rolling a 4 or 5 on your Attack Roll, only to have it blocked by someone who rolled a 10 or 11. I can kinda see the point. As GM I have occasionally handwaved it and just said had the NPC "miss" their Block of a really good PC Attack Roll. I can't really see using it against the PCs, but YMMV.

[dsatow]

Seems reasonable to me.  I'm also in the camp of not liking max damage on crits due to how excessive it gets.  One thing we tried for a while was counting all 1s and 2s as 3s on a crit but ulitmately decided on the free haymaker (+4DCs) as we found it quicker and easier in play.

My only problem with +4d6 is several of my players are like me when I play (not when I gm for some reason).  I get 4 extra dice and I'd get 4-6 extra stun on the attack.

[tombrown803]

perhaps instead of extra damage, the attack becomes AP or Penetrating for free

[dsatow]

perhaps instead of extra damage, the attack becomes AP or Penetrating for free

Then it really doesn't help if the attack is already one of those, or the attack can be too deadly by accident (KA penetrating can be devastating).

[Netzilla]

My only problem with +4d6 is several of my players are like me when I play (not when I gm for some reason). I get 4 extra dice and I'd get 4-6 extra stun on the attack.

Having rolled 7 ones on 12 dice on more than one occasion, I feel your pain. Heck, my game group one bought me new dice because they thought mine were defective. Didn't help.

[Ninja-Bear]

Having rolled 7 ones on 12 dice on more than one occasion, I feel your pain. Heck, my game group one bought me new dice because they thought mine were defective. Didn't help.

Our joke-which is true is when I play hero, my rolls are horrible. When I GM, watch out! I roll great. When I roll as GM against my Brother, I'm deadly!

[Ninja-Bear]

It sounds like it's less about the difference in skill levels than about the frustration of rolling a 4 or 5 on your Attack Roll, only to have it blocked by someone who rolled a 10 or 11. I can kinda see the point. As GM I have occasionally handwaved it and just said had the NPC "miss" their Block of a really good PC Attack Roll. I can't really see using it against the PCs, but YMMV.

Yeah I rolled 3 ones for an agent once my friend tried to Mind Control. He wasn't happy. Yet in fun he gripes about it. And we still say....remeber taht time?

 

Btw if they want to be unblockable by indirect for their attack.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I tend to roll significantly lower than normal as a GM, not sure why.  Hit a lot, do lousy damage.