Block and STR

[Graviton]

Nothing like a heated rules debate first thing on a Sunday morning...

 

The question came up about how STR should or should not affect the Block Maneuver. My co-GM and I see things a bit differently.

 

He has always felt the Block maneuver represents actually stoppping the attack cold. Like Superman stopping a punch with his open palm, or putting up a forearm. He says a Block with the SFX of 'getting out of the way' is just a Dodge.

 

I say the SFX can be 'getting out of the way', but it's not a pure concentration on dodging, it's also setting up for a return attack. I cite the complete lack of reference to STR in any descriptions of the Maneuver, either in FREd, UMA, or the FAQ. The only things close are the "Redefining Block" items in UMA.

 

We've decided to try a compromise: we're going to rule that a Block deflects half the damage from an attack (Item #2 in the Redefining Block, pg. 143 of UMA), but only the STR damage. This way, any damage added by DCs with Martial Arts or Maneuver bonses can be completely blocked, but the STR damage will depend on the relative STR of the combatants. So two STR 15 martial artists tossing around 12d6 Offensive Strikes can still Block each other normally, but a STR 15 martial artist Blocking a STR 60 brick's punch is still going to feel it.

 

How do you guys handle relative STR with Block?

[Lord Liaden]

Personally, I agree with you that the SFX of Block don't necessarily require that the blow be opposed with force. It doesn't necessarily have to be a Dodge, either; some martial arts such as Aikido allow for redirecting the force of a blow, rather than either stopping it or avoiding it.

 

However, I agree that in some cases, for some types of Blocks defined as opposing a blow, the resulting visuals can be a little ludicrous, like a fantasy warrior Blocking a twelve-foot giant's club with his sword. In cases like that, my group has used an approach very similar to yours: the Blocking character takes half the base damage. All applicable Defenses apply, including any protection worn on the body part used to Block, and/or the Defense of the weapon used to Block with. We also usually only use base Strength exclusive of Martial Arts bonuses, on the premise that these bonuses come from skill rather than brute force - although that may vary depending on how the Art is defined.

 

Note that in our system, Blocking Killing damage in this way may reduce the damage, but without Resistant Defence you're still going to take some Body; it's rarely effective to try to shield yourself from a balle axe with your bare hands.

[Blue]

Block is essentially a parry manuver. You aren't necessarily "getting out of the way" of the attack so much as deflecing it. I have no problem with a martial artist or well trained fighter deflecting the massive blow of a brick.

 

It's not purely strength. I tend to think that if anything the "special effect" would be catching the person's fist in a show of strength.

[Acroyear]

Most blocks in the real world are a redirection (sometimes of both the incoming blow and of yourself) to reduce the impact. Just taking the hit on the arm would result in a lot of broken arms even for normal martial artists.

 

Combat maneuvers are not, however, limited by mechanics (just like powers). A "Strike" maneuver can be a punch, kick, elbow, head butt, knee, double handed smash, etc, etc. A block can be slappig the blow away, rolling with it precisely, catching the incoming attack, etc... the part to remember about Blocks, though is that it is OCV vs OCV. So some aspect of your colorful description should include intercepting the attack or moving in such a way as you are guaging the attack. I might accept a "avoid a hit" block for some characters and not for others... more of the latter, I would say.

 

A Dodge, however, ups your DCV vs everybody. A Block, only vs your attacker. So in the case of your "block" being avoiding being hit... you are so wrapped up on that incoming attack, you're not getting any bonuses against anyone else.

 

STR/Damage classes, etc have no impact on the Block, at all.

 

However, some people play that you always take 1/4 the damage of blocked attacks (for that small amount of impact) which gives strong attack types a slight advantage and also makes the highly defensive players suffer a little (usually 25% isn't that bad, though. I mean, a 20d6 hit it reduced to 5d6). Just watch out for the damage shields...

[Guest Keneton]

Turning Blocks

 

In old Fantasy hero wepons could only block up to (I believe) 2x their defense in body. Wepons would sometimes break so people would use a turning block at a -2 OCV. This turned block avoided damaging the weapons.

 

For years we use Turn and Block, and my friends in TN still use this even with superheroes. I will not use this with supers. I may use it for FH depending on the new rules set. In this way Fantasy Martial Artist could turn an axe attack by blocking at -2 OCV. If they wanted to take the damage to the Hand they could block at full OCV. This WAS a Hero rule at one time.

[Alibear]

I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance.

 

BTW someone from my Karate club broke someones arm in a competition who "stuck an arm up" when trying to block his spinning kick. I always read that as rolling an 8 on hit location!

[Graviton]

Originally posted by Alibear

I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance.

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make with my co-GM. I think he's hung up on the word "Block" and can't picture any other SFX for it. He keeps saying, "the SFX of a Move Through is moving through somebody, that's it, so you can't use just any ol' SFX for a Maneuver." I likened it to a Power, pointing out the description of the maneuver in UMA says, "avoiding damage," not "stopping attacks cold". Just like Desolidification is not restricted to the SFX "intangible" anymore, it's can also be a way to simply avoid or negate damage.

 

The biggest point is that nowhere in any official document is STR relevant to the maneuver in any way. Unless one can use the SFX of "redirecting the attack" or "twisting out of the way" that would be a glaring rules omission. And we all know that's impossible!

 

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. I am rather surprised this isn't covered in the FAQ, tho. I can't be the first person to ask this question...

[Blue]

It's only been about a thousand years since I read the combat manuvers, so I might be suggesting something already accounted for...

 

If he's going to be hung up on the word BLOCK as meaning that full contact is made but lessened by the defensive manuver, then he'll have to start subtracting STRs from one another. The 50 STR brick swings at the 25 STR Martial Artist. Implementing the Block manuver would subtract the 25 from the 50. The net would be the roll made. Maybe levels in block could be earmarked to lessen the damage further.

 

Would certainly make it more dangerous to block a weapon than a bare fist. That 50 STR brick swinging a telephone pole should inspire a Dodge instead of a block.

 

But then you are getting into the realm of house rules with all this; something I try to avoid.

[Starcorp Man]

Re: Block and STR

 

Originally posted by Graviton

How do you guys handle relative STR with Block?

 

Honestly I don't think it's an issue, block especially in martial arts is not just taking the hit, it's also deflection, such as turning the hand away with a slap of your forearm or back of hand.

 

Especialy in simulating comicbook characters I see no need to add extra effect to the rules, you still have to roll to hit the target, blow a phase to do the maneuver.

[TheEmerged]

I know I'm about to sound like a Rule Mechanic/Geek but...

 

High STR characters already have enough advantages. No sense giving them more

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Alibear

I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance.

 

But at the same time, in the Real World there's no clear distinction between blocking and dodging. Many maneuvers I've learned (well, tried to) were hybrid block/dodge/strikes, like slipping a punch in boxing.

 

We used to allow blocking at -1 OCV to simulate a deflection block, so as not to take damage to the weapon/shield. I've lost characters to that -1 OCV, too.

 

BTW someone from my Karate club broke someones arm in a competition who "stuck an arm up" when trying to block his spinning kick. I always read that as rolling an 8 on hit location!

 

Conversely I've seen kickers break their shins on their targets' elbows or knees which they put out to block. And there's a kickboxing quicktime movie floating out on the net somewhere of a pro kickboxer ending his career in this way when his opponent raised his knee to block. The way his leg flopped around at mid-shin... well, don't watch it if you're squeamish.

[Alibear]

Originally posted by Old Man

But at the same time, in the Real World there's no clear distinction between blocking and dodging.

 

True

 

Originally posted by Old Man

Conversely I've seen kickers break their shins on their targets' elbows or knees which they put out to block. And there's a kickboxing quicktime movie floating out on the net somewhere of a pro kickboxer ending his career in this way when his opponent raised his knee to block. The way his leg flopped around at mid-shin... well, don't watch it if you're squeamish.

 

Seen that one... ouch!

 

I used to have a very good turning kick and my instructor would block it by sticking his elbow up and letting me kick that. It hurt like a SOB.

[Guest Champsguy]

Well, first, ask your friend to show you where in the rules it says anything about strength. If he can't find a rule in the book that says precisely how to treat relative strengths, then it seems he's just making stuff up (which, as we all know, he is).

 

You've got the rules right. Your friend is wrong.

 

If maneuvers can't have any old special effects, ask him about haymaker. What does a haymaker look like? It'll look different for a guy with no arms as compared to a Japanese tentacle beast.

[Graviton]

Originally posted by Champsguy

Well, first, ask your friend to show you where in the rules it says anything about strength. If he can't find a rule in the book that says precisely how to treat relative strengths, then it seems he's just making stuff up (which, as we all know, he is).

 

That's the first thing I did. I see that as my strongest argument: as complex and yet flexible as these rules are, if STR were in any way involved, there'd be something official SOMEWHERE. There's not. The question isn't on the FAQ and AFAIK has never even come up on the boards, fer Pete's sake.

 

The problem is not that he's unaware of the rules, the problem is he doesn't like the fact that there are no rules about it. And that's because he has pinned one SFX to the Manuever and he can't get his mind around anything else. So it has moved beyond just proving that the rules allow for any SFX, it's basically an opinion thing. He wants a house rule to basically give high-STR characters an advantage, I do not. Since we co-GM the same universe, and have for 20 years, I can't just summarily rule. Well, I guess I could when I'm GMing, but that's crazy to use different house rules in the same game world. So we need to find something with which we're both comfortable.

 

I'm going to give my side one more shot, by directing him to this thread. I posted it while he was here last weekend and I'm anxious for him to read all these responses and then discuss it with him. I'll let you guys know what happens. Thanks again!

[LightningBolt]

I am the Co-GM that Graviton mentioned in his opening post. Grav has missed a key point in my argument, I feel, and I just wanted to throw my viewpoint into the mix.

 

Graviton wrote <

 

I say the SFX can be 'getting out of the way,' but it's not a pure concentration on dodging, it's also setting up for a return attack.>>

 

I understand this. I understand, and fully appreciate the flexibility of these rules. I understand, for instance, that an "Offensive strike" could be defined as anything from a kick, elbow smack, punch, head butt, whatever. Ditto every other martial maneuver. And THAT is my point. To my mind, Martial maneuvers DO have a degree of flexibility that COMMON maneuvers should not.

 

Blue writes "Block is essentially a parry maneuver. You aren't necessarily "getting out of the way" of the attack so much as deflecting it. I have no problem with a martial artist or well trained fighter deflecting the massive blow of a brick."

 

Me either. There you are talking about a highly trained martial artist, not a person with no special fighting skills.

 

Allibear writes "I've had this very same discussion at least twice in my RPG life. People who do Martial Arts, say San Take Karate-Do, don't block a kick by sticking an arm in the way! You block by moving your feet first, essentially getting your body out of the way and then attacking the incoming attack to knock your assailant off balance. "

 

EXACTLY... The key part of this paragraph is "People who take Martial Arts."

 

People who have TRAINED can do these things. But I know I couldn't!!! In the real world, I've been in one fight in my 42 years of existence, I've never trained and I'm absolutely certain I could NEVER get my body of the way in such a manner that I could then hit back first. I COULD throw up an arm and block, perhaps, but that's, then, when the issue of strength becomes important. If my opponent is 2X stronger than me, I'm going to have a severely bruised arm. If my opponent is 32X stronger, I'm definitely going to have my arm shattered!

 

Allibear writes further "BTW someone from my Karate club broke someone's arm in a competition who "stuck an arm up" when trying to block his spinning kick. "

 

There ya go. There's a real life example of exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Starcorp Man writes "Honestly I don't think it's an issue, block especially in martial arts is not just taking the hit, it's also deflection, such as turning the hand away with a slap of your forearm or back of hand. "

 

Yup. Agreed. For martial block, makes perfect sense. But what about a COMMON block? Do you think someone with no training is actually capable of deflecting an attack? Personally, I do not.

 

Okay...

 

Let me say a few things here. #1, I brought this up because it's always bothered me. When the 5th Ed came out and still didn't touch on it, I started this discussion with Gravition. He keeps saying it's "mentioned no where in the literature," a point he has brought up time and time again... to the point I'm a tad frustrated because, to my mind, it's absolutely irrelevant. I understand it's not mentioned anywhere in the rules. So what???? Let's make realism the goal and mutually decide what's most realistic. If the rules reflect that, fine. If they don't, let's amend the rules. What is already written in the rulebook isn't sacrosanct. Again: I UNDERSTAND it's not there. And that's EXACTLY what's always bothered me!

 

The whole point of these rules, to my mind, is to simulate reality as closely as is possible. I simply want Maximum Realism. We, Graviton and I, ruled years before the 5th Ed came out that we didn't like Absorption as it was described and opted to do "simple absorption" instead. We took the "simple absorption" from another Hero source, true, but it was NOT in the rulebook. We added it to our rulebook because we felt it was more effective, realistic, promoted better balance.

 

#2- I've always always always been bothered by this, for better than 12 years of continuous gaming. I've never been bothered so much that I desired to make a great issue out of it, however. It's only coming up now because of the 5th Ed. I thought, with the updated rules, this might be addressed. It wasn't. I found that odd. I brought this discussion up. But I've already conceded it's not a Life or Death issue here. I'm perfectly willing to, as I've said to Grav, bury my disbelief since I'm absolutely incapable of suspending it.

 

Okay. #3. Now here's my main point here.

 

When is a move-through NOT "barreling into someone"? When is a dodge NOT "getting out of the way of the attack"?

 

Certainly, point conceded, a Martial Strike can be any number of things. Ditto ALL martial maneuvers. But those martial maneuvers imply a degree of skill NOT possessed by every man.

 

My contention is that EVERY man can lower their head and charge at someone, running into them: a move-through.

 

ANYONE can squirm out of the way of an attack: a dodge.

 

ANYONE can attempt a grab: a grab (is there ANY other imaginative way of defining a grab other than "wrapping your __something_ around a target in a grip"? Whether you use tentacles, a hand, a tongue, whatever, a grab is a grab is a grab.

 

Likewise, ANYONE can throw up an arm, doing THAT kind of block.

 

But a counterstrike block, a sidestep block, the kind of blocks everyone is talking about via Kickboxing or Martial arts, those seem highly skilled to me. That does not seem to be to be an "everyman maneuver."

 

There's a part of me, honestly, that has trouble with the concept of a Common Block at all. To not only avoid taking all damage from an attack, no matter how powerful, and at the SAME TIME setting yourself up to attack back first, that seems to require a degree of skill not possessed by every man. However... I can see how it would work for every man if you ARE talking about a "classic" block- throwing up an arm. A block for a common man, I almost see, as a kind of warding off gesture. You're about to be hit, you instinctively throw up your arm to take the impact as opposed to taking it on the chin. And, in THAT situation, where you do, in essence, stop an attack cold, I see how, yes, the common untrained average Joe Schmoe would be able to attack back first. The very act of stopping the attack cold is what opens up the attacker to your punch.

 

So, in my opinion, where the issue of greater strength becomes relevant is with THIS kind of block, a "stopping block cold" block, a "my arm stops your punch" block. In short, the issue of strength becomes relative, to my mind, with a COMMON block.

 

With a Martial Block? That's a whole other deal. Yes, I'll accept that Batman is able to sidestep Ben Grimm's Sunday punch, or deflect it, or basically use SKILL to counter incredible strength.

 

But this makes absolutely no sense to me where the common block is concerned.

 

The whole issue of weapons, adding that, makes this even MORE muddled to my mind. The average Joe can use a shield to take the impact of a punch, what I think of as a "classic block," meaning "stopping the attack." There, yes, Fantasy Hero has all kinds of optional rules about how much body said shield can absorb. There's no equivalent deal with a human arm.

 

I understand, yes, you're all saying "it need not be an appendage" that stops the attack. My point is, that's the ONLY kind of block, I think, that's feasible for someone to attempt without special training.

 

I'm done. I welcome comments. Feel free to tell me I'm full of it. I've already been told I'm loony because I'm the only one in tens of thousands of GMs who's ever been bothered by this. 8-)

[Blue]

I'll start by admitting that I didn't read that entire post (Sorry). I'm more of a 'skimmer' once they get that big.

 

You make a valid point on it being more of a martial arts trained thing. AverageGuy being attacked by a thug on the street (a thug who is swinging a pipe) has three options: plain ol' vanilla DCV, dodge (which is what anyone smart would do if a pipe were coming at them in REAL life), or block. In real life a block would be putting your arm up to absorb the damage, not so much to really deflect the blow aside. An untrained fighter has no real talent for this.

 

So an untrained combatant would likely be using block analogous to "superman putting out his palm and catching someone's fist". He's really absorbing impact more than anything else.

 

While Champions is not "Real Life", when it comes to normals fighting each other who do not have training, STR doesn't seem to make that much of a difference in the blocking anyway. Humans are so nearly on the same level in a superheroic campaign that to me it invalidates any STR issues. As for the heroes, they're pretty much all "trained fighters" or else why the heck are they heroes? And if they aren't trained fighers, why are they attempting a block?

 

I know it's weird logic. I'm not sure my own players would even follow my logic on that one, and they're used to this sort of thing from me.

[Alibear]

Good points Lightningfella.

 

I worked in one of the roughest bars in Edinburgh when I was younger, and have seen lots of fights, managed to get in the middle of some too. In fact my big bother was the head doorman for a massive chain of pubs and clubs in Edin. and was fighting all the time. I have seen lots of "real life fights". To be honest I have never seen anyone actually block a punch. Maybe the combination of alcohol, total absence of training or whatever but people just keep swinging and hope for the best in my experience. The closest thing I've seen was the "boxer-block", basically sticking up your arms and rolling with the blow. Actual trained fighters don't really block outside the dojo either, they wait for an opening and then open up with a salvo.

 

However I think for a "Heroic" game then blocking is very in genre. If you want hyper realism then maybe a block should be changed to a 1 point maneuver. (and they get +1 ocv or dcv or whatever) Otherwise roll with the blow should be the norm.

 

Good discussion BTW.

[Gargoyle]

Block doesn't have shit to do with STR. But if you have 100 str, chances are you'll be blocking stuff with your chin on a daily basis, cuz it would be a realistic SFX. If you have 5 str, your block is more likely to be a sidestep.

 

The Block vs Dodge debate is silly IMO. Block IS a dodge, only vs one attack. While the dodge give you lesser chance of being hit by ALL attacks, the block focuses on not getting hit by one specific attack.

 

Block can still be evasion.

[LightningBolt]

Originally posted by Gargoyle

Block doesn't have shit to do with STR. But if you have 100 str, chances are you'll be blocking stuff with your chin on a daily basis, cuz it would be a realistic SFX. If you have 5 str, your block is more likely to be a sidestep.

 

The Block vs Dodge debate is silly IMO. Block IS a dodge, only vs one attack. While the dodge give you lesser chance of being hit by ALL attacks, the block focuses on not getting hit by one specific attack.

 

Block can still be evasion.

 

I'm still digesting this. I understand the flexibility of maneuvers... a martial strike can be with hand, knee, head, whatever. But I have always felt that a block amounts to "stopping the attack" and that "avoiding the attack" is a dodge. I've always felt that is was the very act OF stopping the attack that set you up to move first... particularly in the case of the "boxer's block": throwing up an arm.

 

In discussing this with Graviton in Email, in addition to here on this board, another consideration occurs to me.

 

IF... (and this is a big IF here, because I know it's disputed)... IF you define a block as "stopping the attack" with either arm, hand, whatever, in essence taking the blow to some part of your body, not only does the blocking rule fail to take into consideration strength differences, it fails to take into consideration how much damage the attack MIGHT do.

 

That's really unclear. Let me try to unmuddle it. 8-)

 

Everyone knows that all 50-str punches are NOT created equal. You can roll mostly 1s and 2s or hit big with lots of 5s and 6s. With the block as It Is Written, it's taken totally out of the attacker's hands. He COULD strike the defenders arm with a measily 18 pts of affect. OR it might go well upwards of 40 pts of damage. But, as it stands with standard rules, a block negates all damage whether its a glancing feather shot or one that would smash through a steel wall.

 

I appreciate the input. The "half damage" rule seems to be the solution I want here. And only implemented on normal untrained blocks, not martial ones. If you have a Martial Block, yeah, define it as an invasion if you'd like, strength differences are irrelevent, nothing changes. But with a normal everyman block, I'm inclined to say that MUST be defined as "stopping the attack." You can use an arm, catch with a hand, even a leg if you're so inclined, but it IS stopping the attack, not avoiding it. And then half damage applies. You get to move first by virtue of the fact you have, in essence, "hung up" their attack.

 

And with Half Damage, then , yeah, lots of times, all this is moot. It'll be a "ping." But in those cases where the attacker really nails it, rolls extraordinarly well and does massive damage, it's no longer a "ping" in EVERY case.

 

One of the things that has troubled me is the argument that goes...

 

"If you're a normal fighting a brick with a strength of 60, you simply KNOW you can't block." But you DON'T know. Because, currently, a block isn't necessarily a "classic" block, a.k.a stopping the attack. It could be an evasion. That's my point. A normal CAN block Ben Grimm with the current rules! No special skill is required to negate even the most massively powerful attacks.

 

If I rule as a GM, "No you can't block because it would break your arm," the character fires back, "I'm counterstriking, not blocking with an arm" or "I'm not blocking with my arm, I'm stepping out of the way."

 

In essence: Let The Arguments Begin.

 

However... with this idea of Half Damage, that puts a whole new slant on it. Then the CHARACTER truly has to make that decision... Do I block or do I dodge? Dodge becomes the only SURE way to avoid the damage. Now he can no longer block attacks that are massively more powerful than him with no fear of damage.

 

I've heard, a hellava lot, that I'm worried about nothing because normals never fight the Supermen of the world. But the fact a normal COULD block Superman has forever troubled me... and says there's something that needs to be done about the rule that makes that possible.

 

Half Damage is something I can live with completely. As Alibear talked about real life fights in bars, and said that perhaps I was seeking "hyper realism", it's not that. No, I don't want, or expect, super battles to result in injuries as frequently as they occur in the real world. No way. 8-) What has ALWAYS bugged me is that there is NEVER the potential for ANY damage where blocks are concerned. It's not I want to simulate bone-breaking force with every hit... I just feel for a block to ALWAYS negate ALL damage is a degree of unreality beyond what I can accept.

 

Half damage is the solution. I've overcomplicated, I know. I have a long history of having trouble with brevity.

 

And if you don't believe me, I've got a 60 page dissertation on the subject I'd be happy to Email you.

 

8-)

 

Thanks for sharing your views.

[LightningBolt]

Something else...

 

Gargoyle says "The Block vs Dodge debate is silly IMO. Block IS a dodge, only vs one attack. While the dodge give you lesser chance of being hit by ALL attacks, the block focuses on not getting hit by one specific attack."

 

This is not the first time this point has been made. I've heard it repeatedly.

 

It amounts to saying, "Yes, a block is essentially no different than a dodge but it's a dodge vs only one attack(er)."

 

So I ask: What if there IS only one attacker?

 

Do any of you other GMs have "solo scenarios"? A single hero vs a single villain?

 

We don't do them as often as we used to but we DO play solo scenarios. I think they're wonderful, personally, and often develop individual heroes in ways "group activities" can't. It's only because of the practical availability of the real-life gamers that I don't do them more often.

 

Anyway... in a One-on-One scenario, why would you dodge an attack, from anyone, regardless of whether they were a martial artist or a mega-brick, when you can block? I keep thinking this makes a block a "super dodge." You're NOT blocking, you're evading, AND you get to go first.

 

True, I understand, there's a difference between simply adding to your DCV and leaving it to a roll, OCV vs OCV. But speaking as a PLAYER now, I'd rather leave it to MY roll, as opposed to my OPPONENTS roll. Put the dice in my hands. So, again, the block is the better option: a super dodge.

 

Just thought I'd throw that out there too.

 

8-)

[SaintHax]

I normally read all the posts before replying, but I'm going to just post and run this time. In reply to the original posts: I don't feel that a block is simply getting out of the way, that is a dodge. However, do agree w/ the poster in spirit. A block could be a redirection of the strike. Simply put, it takes very little Str to move a punch to the left or to the right. One does not have to try to hold the punch back, so Str shouldn't be a factor.

[Tech]

I've always thought Block was 'I intercept the blow or deflect it'. I guess I can also see it as sidestepping, although why not Dodge? Anyways, I'll throw out a few suggestions for those who think the 'a normal can block Ben Grim' scenario ridiculous.

 

1) Have the Block manuever defined by each character.

2) Have the Block manuever defined by the circumstance at the time it happens in a game.

3) If the Block is defined as 'intercepting/deflecting the blow' we go to:

1. a) Make a Dex roll. If you fail it, you take 1/2 damage
   You can only Block your STR +10 or so at max. Anything beyond will result in a) above occuring automatically.

Just thought I'd throw these out.

[Lord Liaden]

LightningBolt, I've been thinking a lot about the arguments you've presented, and I believe I understand why this concerns you. However, when you start making distinctions between "trained" vs. "untrained" fighters, you've raised some issues about how you perceive that distinction that perhaps you haven't considered.

 

HERO provides several ways of representing people with formal combat training. One is for the combatant to puchase martial arts maneuvers, which can affect the character's OCV, DCV, and damage. Those enhanced benefits are the result of the character's training: how to stand better, focus their striking power more efficiently, anticipate the angle of an attacker's blow, etc. In the case of a basic Martial Block, you get bonuses to your OCV for the block, and your DCV if the block misses, as part of the maneuver. However, aside from this the Martial Block is not different, as pure mechanics, from a standard Block maneuver which a character can have for free.

 

Now, a combatant's training can also be purchased as Combat Skill Levels. These are also implicitly a result of practice to improve one's fighting skills, can add to OCV and DCV, and (in heroic-level games) can increase damage. In the case of a Block, they can grant a person the same kind of CV benefits as a Martial Block. (You can also represent the benefits of formal training as improved DEX, extra dice of HA, and the like, but I'm sure you get the idea.)

 

Here is the point I suggest you consider: a person without formal training could still attempt to Block an incoming attack. He might get lucky and actually pull it off, but without the benefit of those CV bonuses (from whatever source) he's much more likely to fail, and get thumped for his trouble. The result of a failed attempt to block would likely be the blocking limb, or whatever, taking the full brunt of the blow, which would be the kind of result you seem to be looking for from such a conflict. Training merely reduces the likelihood of that outcome.

 

Mind you, if you want to take massive differences in Strength between combatants into account for the sake of "realism" in blocking, then your half-damage idea would probably be the best approach; as you note, between opponents of comparable defenses and damage ability, it usually wouldn't have much effect. But if you are willing to say that it's possible for a Block maneuver to avoid all damage as a function of skill, IMHO the difference between "skilled" and "unskilled" becomes quantitative rather than qualitative.

 

Hope that made sense.

[Graviton]

Originally posted by Tech

1) Have the Block manuever defined by each character.

2) Have the Block manuever defined by the circumstance at the time it happens in a game.

3) If the Block is defined as 'intercepting/deflecting the blow' we go to:

1. a) Make a Dex roll. If you fail it, you take 1/2 damage
   You can only Block your STR +10 or so at max. Anything beyond will result in a) above occuring automatically.

Just thought I'd throw these out.

 

This leaves it up to the SFX of the maneuver and the individual combatants, which is exactly where it should be.

 

Just to throw some numbers out here: Say Lightning Bolt (40 STR) attempts to Block Brickman (80 STR). He makes his roll, but still takes 1/2 damage because of the differential in STR. So Brickman still throws 8d6 at LB, which on average will deal out 28 STUN. LB has a PD of 25 (which I'll point out is relatively low in our campaign), so he'll take a whopping 3 STUN. Understanding that sometimes Brickman will roll lots o' sixes which would have an affect, most of the time even with a 40-point STR differential, it's going to be a 'ping'. There are not a lot of 80-STR characters running around out there, LB has one villain over 80, and I have none (this also opens up the HA can o' worms; would HA damage add to the STR differential for the purposes of determining Block damage? My head hurts...) IMO, it's not worth wasting precious combat time to figure it out UNLESS it's fairly obvious that the guy Blocking would suffer some damage. Which, again IMO, means it's only applicable to Normals, or at least characters with "normal" defenses.

 

Lord, thanks for making that point about training. I attempted to do that in an email to Lightning Bolt yesterday, but you did a much better job of it.

 

Our resolution appears to be that LB will use the 1/2 damage rule when he's GMing, and when I'm GMing I won't unless the circumstances and SFX of the manuever dictate. I do appreciate everyone's weighing in on this subject.

[Vondy]

Re: Block and STR

 

Originally posted by Graviton

Nothing like a heated rules debate first thing on a Sunday morning...

 

The question came up about how STR should or should not affect the Block Maneuver. My co-GM and I see things a bit differently.

 

He has always felt the Block maneuver represents actually stoppping the attack cold. Like Superman stopping a punch with his open palm, or putting up a forearm. He says a Block with the SFX of 'getting out of the way' is just a Dodge.

 

I say the SFX can be 'getting out of the way', but it's not a pure concentration on dodging, it's also setting up for a return attack. I cite the complete lack of reference to STR in any descriptions of the Maneuver, either in FREd, UMA, or the FAQ. The only things close are the "Redefining Block" items in UMA.

 

We've decided to try a compromise: we're going to rule that a Block deflects half the damage from an attack (Item #2 in the Redefining Block, pg. 143 of UMA), but only the STR damage. This way, any damage added by DCs with Martial Arts or Maneuver bonses can be completely blocked, but the STR damage will depend on the relative STR of the combatants. So two STR 15 martial artists tossing around 12d6 Offensive Strikes can still Block each other normally, but a STR 15 martial artist Blocking a STR 60 brick's punch is still going to feel it.

 

How do you guys handle relative STR with Block?

 

Stopping a stike cold?!

 

With the exception of some extremely painful blocks this is a rarity, and more of a superhero/action movie shtick than a realistic option.

 

Stopping attacks cold hurts, and can cause injury (to both the attacker and defender). Some Muay Thai blocks are "cold stoppers" if you will, and I'm sure a few other matial arts have them, but they are the exception to the rule. Most blocks I've learned are designed to deflect the blow so that it doesn't hit you, or glances off a less important, tougher part of the body. Blocks tend to depend on angle, timing, and moving yourself a little bit (but not completely dodging). Some of them still hurt.

 

Even in armed styles their is a mix of blocks that stop attacks cold and deflect them. Even the first can be reliant on blade angle. Weapons can break like bones do.

 

Nevertheless, strength can be a factor when there is a huge disparity between the opponents. A trained 200 pound man fighting a trained 100 pound woman has a significant strength advantage, and the woman would be advised not to go toe-to-toe with him in a slugfest, or try to block his blows cold. She could probably still pull off a deflecting block (regularly if she's more skilled than he is), however -- so in game mechanics I'm not going to sweat it.

 

Its also a matter of style. The man in the above scenario is likely to be a powerhouse fighter, and know he can use that to his advantage with this particular fighter. The woman will likely be more reliant on speed, feignts, and funky angles. She will also be more heavily reliant on staying in motion and maintaining space. Tactics, Analyze Style, and Skill Levels will all play a significant roll in her ability to win.

 

I guess my point is: strength is important, but it isn't everything. The SFX and circumstances matter more in most cases, as do the styles of the respective combatants. The man in my above example will try to force the woman to block him cold in hopes of breaking her bones or knocking her down, the woman will try to avoid this at all costs, and will shoot for his fleshy parts. Defense Strike combined with Martial Dodge = +8DCV. Martial Block = +2CV. The weaker character could block... but staying away is smarter, even mechanically.

 

I had a similar problem in a recent fantasy game where a knight made a desperate stand against a giant to buy the party time. Could he block? With a strength disparity of 30 points my answer was: you can do a block maneuver with your shield (not a weapon), but you'll take knockback, and your shield may not survive. He was saved by that, and rolling with the impact (three times). He hurt the giant really badly before disengaging, too.

 

In superheroic games the strength disparity is even greater, and even a deflecting block might get you hurt. Its a matter of: can Batman block Superman's blows?

 

The answer is: who wrote this issue. I think bats would dodge and hold actions for throw maneuvers, but that's just my opinion.