Spells versus the Real World

[Shoug]

34 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I was thinking the same Power construct, but decided not to suggest it for fear of it seeming too radical or "kludgy." I should have known better -- these are Hero gamers.

 

But remember, EDM is just the mechanic. The Special Effect can look exactly as you describe it.

 

OTOH that Power construct requires a defined Defense. I would suggest that since since your character's patron goddess is of Chaos, that any barrier or restraint specifically consecrated to a god of Order, or spell drawing on the power of Order, would be immune to this unbinding spell.

This is important. All you need to do is define a mechanical effect that's so solid that you really don't have to think about it during play anymore. If you spend a healthy amount of points to build the most robust and "kludgy" effect for the spell, then you can relax during play, comfortable with the knowledge that all you need to know is you can press this button and unbind things. Hell, you could think of it not as banishing the restrictive object, but banishing it's restrictive nature. Whatever portion of a thing's nature is restrictive is erased from reality. Locks become paperweights that look like locks, chains and cages become uselessly maleable and soft, ropes lose the ability to tie into knots, and Lock/Knock spells are just erased from existence completely (because all they are is pure elemental restriction, so there is no portion of their nature that can be retained).

[Chris Goodwin]

The 6th edition Grimoire includes a spell of Locking and Opening (p. 357), also called Charm of Release (p. 326).  The blurb says it's built with Telekinesis and Lockpicking, but the actual build is a Multipower with Lockpicking 20- for the opening part and Change Environment: -20 to Lockpicking rolls for the locking part.  (Lockpicking should let you lock a lock as well as unlock it, IMO, but we'll let that slide.)  

 

If I were using that as the "official" build for my unbinding spell in my magic system, I'd just build in a Limitation to binding spells, locks, ropes, handcuffs, and so on, to the effect that they're removed by this spell.  

[Shoug]

8 hours ago, Tywyll said:

But ignoring that for a moment, the fact that real world objects don't have values that powers can easily interact with is still a gripe. No I don't want bowls to have stats, but I do want to know how much Transform I need to roll to create food from thin air, or create a chain, or a lock that has a -3 to peing picked. I want to know how much strength or telekenisis I need to hold back a tsunami or a tornado.

Well, in the case of creating objects out of thin air, there is a power in one of the APGs called "Object Creation" that helps you... create objects. They recommend using it for mostly only things which couldn't be represented with another power, mundane objects that you'd probably pay money for, but that does seem to be what you're talking about. I recommend checking those books out.

But I also definitely see what you're saying, but I have to disagree a little bit. I think you're having a classic case of "They hinted at a certain design paradigm, but didn't take it to its logical conclusion." I think Hero does better than almost any other system at interacting with the environment in a consistent way with the game mechanics. For most of the really powerful effects that something in the environment can have, there is a power that can be used to represent it. Not all, but most of the ones you really need to be thinking of. The important action set pieces are well thought out in terms of game mechanics. Breaking things is part of the fundamental nature of damage in the game, for example. So it's a situation where the game has done so well at setting up your expectations for how everything works, because it's in general so consistent, that when you find gaps like "what are locks?" and stuff like that, it feels like some kind of massive inconsistency. But the reality is, no other games really do anything like this. 

[Tywyll]

On 3/10/2020 at 5:09 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

  

 

In some cases, and depending on genre, the handcuffs might have a -1/4 Real Equipment Limitation, akin to Real Weapon and Real Armor.  That Limitation would certainly allow it to be picked.  Entangle, Barrier, and Transform specifically are Instant Powers with an effect that lasts beyond the use of the Power, in much the same way as damage does.  You couldn't Dispel damage, so can you Dispel a created Entangle, Barrier, or Wall?  It also depends on the magic system; I've designed magic systems in which those Powers, and a few others (Mental Powers mainly) can be Dispelled after they're created.  You could either build it into the Power as a Limitation, or state it as one of the default conditions of your magic system.  

 

In most cases, I would say yes you could dispel those creations, but that's just my take on it. 

 

On 3/10/2020 at 5:09 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I think Suppress is what you'd want to use rather than Dispel.  In 5e it's its own Power; in 6e it's a build based on Drain.  Dispel against armor is definitely against a Power (Resistant Protection), while there's some... thought... about whether you can use Dispel on a sword's HKA.  My view is that there's some definitional stuff going on so that no, you can't ordinarily, but I imagine I'm in the minority; for instance, HKA is an Instant Power, so when you attack someone with your sword, technically you're activating the Killing Attack, Hand-to-hand Power (0 Phase action) then attacking with it (Half-Phase combat action).  You can't really Dispel a Power that is not currently activated, so the only time you could Dispel the HKA is when they're actually attacking with it.  I'll admit that my view is getting pretty deep into the weeds, though, and that it would be easier just to allow it.  

 

This is an instance were aborting to a power would be something I would allow, since you are defending yourself by dispelling the weapon that is attacking you.

 

On 3/10/2020 at 5:09 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

With Transform, there are a couple of competing system level imperatives; typically, creating food, chain, or lock, are the results of using other Powers (Life Support and Entangle respectively) and would be used instead of Transform.  As a GM you can decide to handwave these.  

 

Assuming you (or the GM, if that's not you) have done so... with Transform, you'd ordinarily roll the dice, and need to achieve twice the target's BODY in order to Transform it.  An easy rule of thumb is that when creating objects or substances out of thin air, you can create half the BODY roll worth of the substance.  So for example, if you're creating ice using Transform: Thin Air to Ice, and you roll 10 BODY on your Transform dice, you're creating (10 / 2) 5 BODY worth of ice.  On the Object BODY table in the Breaking Things section (6e2 p. 172, but it's in 5ER, 5E, and the BBB as well, towards the back) 5 BODY worth of unliving is 25kg, so that 5 BODY comes out to 25kg of ice.  (The Breaking Things section can be generally helpful when figuring out how much BODY, X kilograms of something has, or the DEF and BODY of a wall of material Y, at Z millimeters thick.)

 

Hum...I hadn't connected those dots. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

 

On 3/10/2020 at 5:09 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

Assuming you don't want to use Transform for some reason, Entangle creates an object with 1 rPD, 1 rED, and 1d6 Normal dice of BODY (average of 1) for 10 points; Barrier uses +1 point for +1 BODY, +3 points for +2 rPD or rED.  The Advanced Player's Guide 2 includes a new Power: Object Creation, based on these costs: 20 points for an object up to 2 rPD, 2 rED, 2 BODY, +3 points for +2rPD, +2 rED, or +3 BODY.  Create Object specifically disallows using Create Object to create an object that another Power reasonably would, including chains (Entangle) and swords (HKA) as examples, but also warns the GM and players not to strain the definition of "reasonably" too hard, meaning that if it makes sense and isn't abused, then yes, you can let Object Creation create swords. 

 

I recommend buying the APGs if you don't have them, even if you don't use 6th edition, because they're pretty applicable to 5th as well.  

 

 

I do have the first one. I'll have to look into the second, thanks!

[Tywyll]

On 3/10/2020 at 5:40 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

The 6th edition Grimoire includes a spell of Locking and Opening (p. 357), also called Charm of Release (p. 326).  The blurb says it's built with Telekinesis and Lockpicking, but the actual build is a Multipower with Lockpicking 20- for the opening part and Change Environment: -20 to Lockpicking rolls for the locking part.  (Lockpicking should let you lock a lock as well as unlock it, IMO, but we'll let that slide.)  

 

If I were using that as the "official" build for my unbinding spell in my magic system, I'd just build in a Limitation to binding spells, locks, ropes, handcuffs, and so on, to the effect that they're removed by this spell.  

 

Yeah, that one isn't as powerful as I want this spell to be, because I want something that undoes all bindings, including things without locks (like spider webs or paralysis spells). 

[Tywyll]

On 3/10/2020 at 5:48 PM, Shoug said:

Well, in the case of creating objects out of thin air, there is a power in one of the APGs called "Object Creation" that helps you... create objects. They recommend using it for mostly only things which couldn't be represented with another power, mundane objects that you'd probably pay money for, but that does seem to be what you're talking about. I recommend checking those books out.

But I also definitely see what you're saying, but I have to disagree a little bit. I think you're having a classic case of "They hinted at a certain design paradigm, but didn't take it to its logical conclusion." I think Hero does better than almost any other system at interacting with the environment in a consistent way with the game mechanics. For most of the really powerful effects that something in the environment can have, there is a power that can be used to represent it. Not all, but most of the ones you really need to be thinking of. The important action set pieces are well thought out in terms of game mechanics. Breaking things is part of the fundamental nature of damage in the game, for example. So it's a situation where the game has done so well at setting up your expectations for how everything works, because it's in general so consistent, that when you find gaps like "what are locks?" and stuff like that, it feels like some kind of massive inconsistency. But the reality is, no other games really do anything like this. 

 

What are this?

 

But seriously, you make a decent point. However, after decades, I still want to know things like how strong is an average tornado? How fast does it move (as in SPD and actual Running/Flight)? What's the level of TK or Barrier I need to stop a tidal wave? Hell, why is darkness only a -4 to sight based perception when it should be -infinity?

 

Benchmarks against real world phenomenom would be great. 

 

Note, this is not me hating on HERO. Very few games do these things either. I just find it increasinly frustrating with HERO where you normally model just about anything. 

 

Question about that Object Creation power...does it allow the creation of 'master work' items? Is it purely based on weight and body of an item?

[Tjack]

 

7 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

What are this?

 

But seriously, you make a decent point. However, after decades, I still want to know things like how strong is an average tornado? How fast does it move (as in SPD and actual Running/Flight)? What's the level of TK or Barrier I need to stop a tidal wave? Hell, why is darkness only a -4 to sight based perception when it should be -infinity?

 

Benchmarks against real world phenomenom would be great. 

 

Note, this is not me hating on HERO. Very few games do these things either. I just find it increasinly frustrating with HERO where you normally model just about anything. 

 

Question about that Object Creation power...does it allow the creation of 'master work' items? Is it purely based on weight and body of an item?

     What you’re talking about would be “The Book of Ordinary Stuff”.  A game book three times the size of Ninja Hero or Mystic Masters that had nothing but the stats for everything in the world.

    No one would buy it ‘cause you don’t really need it.  
    When the tornado or tidal wave comes, the GM just has to say “it destroys the the town.”  And 99.44/100th’s % of players will never have the points to completely stop it.  STOP SWEATING THE SMALL STUFF!!!!!

    This is “let’s pretend” not algebra class!!!    Yes, rules are necessary to keep things from devolving into “Bang, Bang, I got you!”  “No, you didn’t. You missed!”  But obsessing over exactly how much of this power or that limitation takes you out of the child like joy and flights of imagination that this game can give you

The GM/DM of a game isn’t like the dealer in a card game or the banker in Monopoly. They act as both a guide and a host for their players. And as such, there has to be a level of trust between them and the players.  They’re there to challenge the players not to screw them over.  They know what’s on your sheet.  So if the GM says the catastrophe can be stopped than it can.  If not then it can’t and the heroes have to help the survivors and stop Dr. Evil from causing the next one.

   I always love the story of someone at a convention trying to pin down Joss Whedon on Serenity’s exact speed vs. the size of his ‘verse.  To which he replied “She flies at the speed of plot”.

   If you’re the player, just trust that your GM knows how strong the door is.  And if you’re the GM than just give it your best fair guess and keep the game moving.

   I’m sorry if I come off a bit hot button on the subject, look through my posts and you’ll see I’ve always been very much on the side of story over rules, art over science in the game.     Thanks, and I await the inevitable smackdown.

[Tywyll]

On 3/13/2020 at 4:15 PM, Tjack said:

 

     What you’re talking about would be “The Book of Ordinary Stuff”.  A game book three times the size of Ninja Hero or Mystic Masters that had nothing but the stats for everything in the world.

 

No, it doesn't have to be. We already have a book of equipment with lists for mundane objects and tables including Body and Def. An extra column with AP is all that is needed. An additional guideline on how you can figure it out should it be hard to build via a power would be sufficient. 

 

On 3/13/2020 at 4:15 PM, Tjack said:

    No one would buy it ‘cause you don’t really need it.  
    When the tornado or tidal wave comes, the GM just has to say “it destroys the the town.”  And 99.44/100th’s % of players will never have the points to completely stop it.  STOP SWEATING THE SMALL STUFF!!!!!

 

I absolutely disagree. If you are playing a Heroic level game, then sure, fine. If I'm playing champions? Then yes, I absolutely expect a super to be able to deal with burning buildings and natural disasters. That's what they do beyond punching bad guys. 

 

On 3/13/2020 at 4:15 PM, Tjack said:

The GM/DM of a game isn’t like the dealer in a card game or the banker in Monopoly. They act as both a guide and a host for their players. And as such, there has to be a level of trust between them and the players.  They’re there to challenge the players not to screw them over.  They know what’s on your sheet.  So if the GM says the catastrophe can be stopped than it can.  If not then it can’t and the heroes have to help the survivors and stop Dr. Evil from causing the next one.

 

Why are some benchmarks relavent (weight, mph, size) but others aren't? By your logic STR shouldn't tell us how much someone can lift, the GM should just best guess it. Nor do we need to know how fast a character can fly/run (beyond combat speed) because they can get there when the GM says. 

 

When players and GM's build characters, they want to know what that character can do as compared to others in that world and the world around them. Having benchmarks, especially for supers ('the strength of 20 men!!!') is not only entirely genre relavent, it's pretty much par for the course for any crunchy rpg. We aren't playing FATE (not there would be anything wrong with it if we were). 

 

If I build 'Fireguy' and want him to be pretty much immune to normal fire, I need to know how much damage normal fire does...if I don't, I'm just wildly guessing and the first time I run into a burning building and get horribly burned there are going to be some crossed expectations. If I want to know if my character is faster than a speeding bullet, I need to know how fast my NCM SPDxMovement is.

 

If I want to create an X, Y, or Z, why is that suddenly not allowed? If I want to be able to disperse tonadoes, why is that not catered too?

 

 

[Grailknight]

14 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

No, it doesn't have to be. We already have a book of equipment with lists for mundane objects and tables including Body and Def. An extra column with AP is all that is needed. An additional guideline on how you can figure it out should it be hard to build via a power would be sufficient. 

 

Hero (really any pnp-rpg) is basically rules to abstract the real world into a consistent game of make believe. Body and Def are necessary for combat/conflict resolution whereas the only purpose of AP is assessing cost to a character. Pricing mundane everyday objects can be a diverting mental exercise but statting out spoons, tables and clothing quickly becomes tedious. And are you going to make PC's pay for these with points? 

 

14 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

I absolutely disagree. If you are playing a Heroic level game, then sure, fine. If I'm playing champions? Then yes, I absolutely expect a super to be able to deal with burning buildings and natural disasters. That's what they do beyond punching bad guys. 

 

There is a large design space between dealing with burning buildings and dealing with natural disasters. The GM and players need to establish  when the campaign falls in that space. Perhaps you have different expectations.

 

14 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

 

Why are some benchmarks relavent (weight, mph, size) but others aren't? By your logic STR shouldn't tell us how much someone can lift, the GM should just best guess it. Nor do we need to know how fast a character can fly/run (beyond combat speed) because they can get there when the GM says. 

 

The system is very detailed on Combat and Movement. You know the answers to the things mentioned here from a glance at the Character sheet. Non-Combat speed takes a calculation  to translate game terms to real world terms but the math is always the same.

 

14 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

When players and GM's build characters, they want to know what that character can do as compared to others in that world and the world around them. Having benchmarks, especially for supers ('the strength of 20 men!!!') is not only entirely genre relavent, it's pretty much par for the course for any crunchy rpg. We aren't playing FATE (not there would be anything wrong with it if we were). 

 

This is mostly defined in the campaign's build guidelines and more precisely in the points costs. Relative benchmarks to the campaign world are more campaign specific than precise numbers though. "The STR of 20 men" varies greatly between  a street level supers story and one where the PC's are one based in a world like the movie "Soldier".

 

 

14 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

If I build 'Fireguy' and want him to be pretty much immune to normal fire, I need to know how much damage normal fire does...if I don't, I'm just wildly guessing and the first time I run into a burning building and get horribly burned there are going to be some crossed expectations. If I want to know if my character is faster than a speeding bullet, I need to know how fast my NCM SPDxMovement is.

 

If I want to create an X, Y, or Z, why is that suddenly not allowed? If I want to be able to disperse tonadoes, why is that not catered too?

 

 

 

Your GM is obligated to set the campaign rules before character creation. But your character conception may be incompatible with the stories he wants to tell.

 

Sure Fireguy has no trouble with normal fires, but how about super hot fires in special conditions or deathtraps? Are you as fast as a .22 handgun round or a round from a Barrett?  Both of these require more specific info from you and willingness to allow that power level from him if it's the higher. If the campaign does not tell stories of heroes that can stop tornadoes and tidal waves, you won't be able to  unless you can convince the GM to allow it. And if these things are relegated to plot device, there's no pressing need to have a write-up.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

And if they're not relegated to plot device, then there is a pressing need to have a write-up. The players' character conception has to be compatible with the stories the GM wants to tell; but the GM's stories also have to be compatible with what the players want to play.

 

Some fantasy, super, and sci-fi stories, and role-playing games, feature protagonists of godlike power, able to affect the world on a force-of-nature scale. If a particular game group wants that experience, they aren't wrong to want it, and their game should be able to stat out forces of that magnitude, which Hero is robust enough to do.

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

And if they're not relegated to plot device, then there is a pressing need to have a write-up. The players' character conception has to be compatible with the stories the GM wants to tell; but the GM's stories also have to be compatible with what the players want to play.

 

Some fantasy, super, and sci-fi stories, and role-playing games, feature protagonists of godlike power, able to affect the world on a force-of-nature scale. If a particular game group wants that experience, they aren't wrong to want it, and their game should be able to stat out forces of that magnitude, which Hero is robust enough to do.

 

Agree 100 percent, i just thought he was fixating on the negative. It all comes down to player to GM communication.

[Doc Democracy]

Maybe this is a niche for someone to fill for the Hall of Champions.

 

It would be good to have benchmarks.  If you have the ability to control wind (as seen through a variety of powers) then you might have a difficulty number to block a light breeze, another to block a strong wind, more for a tornado and something much larger for a hurricane.   As a HERO GM I can see several ways to approach this but it would be useful to have something that everyone can point to and say "this needs to be lower/higher/more flexible" and to decide to use it because it is easy to use the published benchmark or use it to make your own....

[Tywyll]

On 3/17/2020 at 6:14 AM, Grailknight said:

 

Hero (really any pnp-rpg) is basically rules to abstract the real world into a consistent game of make believe. Body and Def are necessary for combat/conflict resolution whereas the only purpose of AP is assessing cost to a character. Pricing mundane everyday objects can be a diverting mental exercise but statting out spoons, tables and clothing quickly becomes tedious. And are you going to make PC's pay for these with points? 

 

Then make powers not interact solely on AP. If they do, as most do, then we need values so we know how powers interact. Storms, earthquakes, all the things PCs might want to stop...you know, being super heroes or master wizards.

 

Quote

 

There is a large design space between dealing with burning buildings and dealing with natural disasters. The GM and players need to establish  when the campaign falls in that space. Perhaps you have different expectations.

 

HERO is supposed to be able to handle any genre, any powerlevel. If the game was entirely focused on street-level supers, then no, I wouldn't expect that. But once you've got Cosmic Champions or high level fantasy characters as viable PCs, then yes, stopping a natural disaster with a power should be possible.  Or hell, recreating such a disaster. 

 

Quote

 

 

The system is very detailed on Combat and Movement. You know the answers to the things mentioned here from a glance at the Character sheet. Non-Combat speed takes a calculation  to translate game terms to real world terms but the math is always the same.

 

Yup, and we also have a full section on environmental effects (fires, being electrocuted, etc). No reason that couldn't be expanded to handle greater details. 

 

Quote

 

This is mostly defined in the campaign's build guidelines and more precisely in the points costs. Relative benchmarks to the campaign world are more campaign specific than precise numbers though. "The STR of 20 men" varies greatly between  a street level supers story and one where the PC's are one based in a world like the movie "Soldier".

 

Not accorind to, Ultimate Brick I think? One of the books details how to determine exactly what that means (and it's not super impressive). 

 

Some things are campaign specific, but other things are universal because the rules which get hyperfocused and crazy detailed in place X or Y and no one bats an eye (Perception modifiers I'm looking at you, but detailed skill modifiers and equipment modifiers also fall into this category). Environmental effects and falling damage and things like that are all detailed regardless of campaign level, so I don't buy this as an excuse.

 

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Sure Fireguy has no trouble with normal fires, but how about super hot fires in special conditions or deathtraps? Are you as fast as a .22 handgun round or a round from a Barrett?  Both of these require more specific info from you and willingness to allow that power level from him if it's the higher. If the campaign does not tell stories of heroes that can stop tornadoes and tidal waves, you won't be able to  unless you can convince the GM to allow it. And if these things are relegated to plot device, there's no pressing need to have a write-up.

 

Fireguy can't be build unless he has some idea about how much damage a fire does on average. He needs to know that to make a relavent build. We aren't talking about a guy looking for complete immunity (which HERO doesn't really do), we're talking about a guy who wants to ignore mundane fires. Without that benchmark, building that concept becomes really difficult and it shouldn't be. But thankfully we have that benchmark.

 

Now why don't we have it for other things?

 

See I could make the same arguement for tanks and cars having write ups, or bases...buildings need stats but things PCs might try to fight or do don't? No, I can't agree with that. 

Quote

 

 

[Tywyll]

On 3/19/2020 at 3:45 AM, Lord Liaden said:

And if they're not relegated to plot device, then there is a pressing need to have a write-up. The players' character conception has to be compatible with the stories the GM wants to tell; but the GM's stories also have to be compatible with what the players want to play.

 

Some fantasy, super, and sci-fi stories, and role-playing games, feature protagonists of godlike power, able to affect the world on a force-of-nature scale. If a particular game group wants that experience, they aren't wrong to want it, and their game should be able to stat out forces of that magnitude, which Hero is robust enough to do.

Exactly. 

 

So why can't we have stats for these things? Why don't they exist anywhere? To me, it's a huge hole in the system (and most Supers systems to be fair). 

[Grailknight]

7 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Exactly. 

 

So why can't we have stats for these things? Why don't they exist anywhere? To me, it's a huge hole in the system (and most Supers systems to be fair). 

 

I am in total agreement with you on the need for benchmarks. You need to know what it takes to break through walls and destroy objects to make the character you envision.

 

But benchmarks vary from campaign to campaign. Unless you have a unified and uniformed settings,  one GM's tornado or hurricane will not be the same as another's. The biggest failure of the  the 5th and 6th edition CU's is that the NPC's and world are not written on a consistent scale with the character creation guidelines. 

 

Doc's suggestion of a Hall of Champions Document is probably the most viable solution we could hope for. But i fear the word count would approach the size of the Complete books.

[Tywyll]

On 3/23/2020 at 4:25 AM, Grailknight said:

But benchmarks vary from campaign to campaign. Unless you have a unified and uniformed settings,  one GM's tornado or hurricane will not be the same as another's. The biggest failure of the  the 5th and 6th edition CU's is that the NPC's and world are not written on a consistent scale with the character creation guidelines. 

 

See, I don't really agree with this (the first part). If falling damage, fire damage, effects of holding ones breath, the DEF of stone/metal/wood, etc are uniform reagardless of campaign, then I see no reason why weather phenomenom or the AP of a flashlight or normal lock shouldn't also be uniform. Without knowing what the 'real world' version of X or Y should be, GMs and players can't make informed choices. "Oh, this is a weak tornado so I can probably stop it with my Dispel Winds/Change Environment/TK." vs "Oh no, its a super tornado? There's no stopping that!"

 

I can build a character strong enough to punch through stone no matter what superheroic campaign I'm in. But my Weather Based character or my tech master may or may not work versus the environment because...?

 

I definitely agree with the second part of your statement. Though I think its really every edition.

 

On 3/23/2020 at 4:25 AM, Grailknight said:

 

Doc's suggestion of a Hall of Champions Document is probably the most viable solution we could hope for. But i fear the word count would approach the size of the Complete books.

 

I don't think it would need to be. We already have tables and tables of AP for weapons and armor and such not. I don't even necessarily want the 'build' (though having mechanics for disasters would be helpful for actually using them in a game).  But if FH can throw out a generic equipment list in 4-6 pages, tacking on the AP of those items along with the body and Def which was already there (or at least for some items) doesn't seem like a big deal.