Summon: Specific Being - Partial Summon, and Summon Specific Object

[iamlibertarian]

I want to know what y'all think of this possible variation of Summon Specific Being.

 

"Specific Being: Partial Summon +1/2 (Probably needs a better name - Maybe: Lesser Summon Specific Being?)

This advantage calls out to a specific being with whom the summoner has significant previous interaction or previously summoned. The Summon only calls to this specific being, opening a portal to them as an invitation. The summoned being may choose to accept or refuse the Summon (like a Mage calls to his demon master, or a Priest to his God). The Summoned being also has the option of sending a representative instead (lesser demon, angel, etc. Once the being arrives, the Summoner may choose whether or not to enter into a contest of wills to force a number tasks, or merely have a conversation or negotiate. All other rules of Summon and Specific Being apply."

This gives the Summoner the choice to call for a specific being and hope it is answered, but at least gives an opening for a creature who may not have a Transdimensional Power to come to wherever the Summoner is. This allows a developing role-played relationship between the two.

 

Examples beyond the demon calling his master or priest his God could be:

A summoner has a favorite Pegasus she rides into battle and always wants that one. If that one has been treated well and wishes to answer the Summon, it can. If not, the call is still out there and another generic Pegasus may chose to answer the call.

 

A challenge. A "good" character can call a demon he has battled before so they can battle again. If the specific demon, concerned about losing, chooses to not answer the summon or sends a demon of lower rank that it in its place, it may 'lose face' with the other demons.

[Matt the Bruins]

It seems to me as if the existing modifiers Expanded Class, Variable Summon (the latter from Fantasy Hero p. 155), and No Conscious Control could be used to model such a power. Some combo of those would open the door for a powerful being to answer or choose to send a substitute or a number of lesser minions in its stead.

[iamlibertarian]

17 hours ago, Matt the Bruins said:

It seems to me as if the existing modifiers Expanded Class, Variable Summon (the latter from Fantasy Hero p. 155), and No Conscious Control could be used to model such a power. Some combo of those would open the door for a powerful being to answer or choose to send a substitute or a number of lesser minions in its stead.

 

Hmmm... I will have to look into Fantasy Hero for that. Does that still allow a character to call out to Summon a Specific creature, or even object? What happens if a character wants to summon his favorite vehicle?

[steriaca]

5 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

Hmmm... I will have to look into Fantasy Hero for that. Does that still allow a character to call out to Summon a Specific creature, or even object? What happens if a character wants to summon his favorite vehicle?

Technically Summon is for beings, not vehicles. But like always, speak with your game master.

[unclevlad]

Yeah, been there with this.

 

Summon deals with things defined on a *character* sheet...not a base sheet, or a vehicle sheet, or something defined as a power only.  Invoking your power so it's suddenly right there doesn't make it a Summon;  it's pure SFX if you don't put any limits on the vehicle's accessibility.  A stickler GM might argue that you need to pay for that *on* the vehicle...like, say, Teleport 5" with massive MegaScale, Only to Fixed Location (you), because otherwise the vehicle remains invisible and undetectable...useful for remaining incognito, for example.  Leave the identifying mark somewhere private, but boom, have access to it whenever you want.

[iamlibertarian]

On 3/18/2020 at 7:41 PM, steriaca said:

Technically Summon is for beings, not vehicles. But like always, speak with your game master.

 

6E1 288 says objects as well?

[iamlibertarian]

18 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Yeah, been there with this.

 

Summon deals with things defined on a *character* sheet...not a base sheet, or a vehicle sheet, or something defined as a power only.  Invoking your power so it's suddenly right there doesn't make it a Summon;  it's pure SFX if you don't put any limits on the vehicle's accessibility.  A stickler GM might argue that you need to pay for that *on* the vehicle...like, say, Teleport 5" with massive MegaScale, Only to Fixed Location (you), because otherwise the vehicle remains invisible and undetectable...useful for remaining incognito, for example.  Leave the identifying mark somewhere private, but boom, have access to it whenever you want.

 

Hmmm, interesting thoughts which I will have to incorporate.

 

However, 6E1 288 says, "...a character can use Summon to “create” inanimate objects defined with Character Points (such as Vehicles and Bases)" and gives an example of Hoverbike. And examples of powers created in the Hero System books back that up. For example: Grimoire 128: Create Tower, and 286 Create Vehicle, and 287 Create Weapons. And even a 6E source says so, Champions Powers 220, Object Creation II? Which is why I even went down this path.

[dmjalund]

wouldn't you have to pay for Summon Vehicle as if it was slavishly loyal (expensive)

[unclevlad]

It's still cheaper, tho, even paying for that.  Summon is 1 per 5 points, so even Slavish means you're getting it for 40%.  Plus, you can then start applying meaningless limitations, like Extra Time (1 phase).  When's that gonna matter?

 

And...why?  What's the motivation for this?  Is it anything but manipulating the rules to get a vehicle, whenever you want, for no cost whatsoever...because it's gonna get slapped into a VPP?  Or just to shave the cost by a major fraction?  OK, now, if the full cost for the vehicle's paid elsewhere...different story.  But that rather key point hasn't been mentioned.

 

 

[iamlibertarian]

10 hours ago, dmjalund said:

wouldn't you have to pay for Summon Vehicle as if it was slavishly loyal (expensive)

 

That was the point of the original question, asking about thoughts on a lesser advantage to Summon a person/object who/which is already very familiar to the 'summoner' with an advantage less than the full Summon Specific Being.

[iamlibertarian]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

It's still cheaper, tho, even paying for that.  Summon is 1 per 5 points, so even Slavish means you're getting it for 40%.  Plus, you can then start applying meaningless limitations, like Extra Time (1 phase).  When's that gonna matter?

 

And...why?  What's the motivation for this?  Is it anything but manipulating the rules to get a vehicle, whenever you want, for no cost whatsoever...because it's gonna get slapped into a VPP?  Or just to shave the cost by a major fraction?  OK, now, if the full cost for the vehicle's paid elsewhere...different story.  But that rather key point hasn't been mentioned.

 

 

 

Well, look at "Create Tower" or "Create Weapon" or 6E1 specifically stating that Summon is also Meant For Vehicles and Bases. I mean, you can Summon a 500 point demon to thrash your enemies without having paid for that demon separately. So what's the difference in summoning a 200 point hoverbike? I mean, even 6E created its own power (CP 220 - Object Creation) to do just this.

As a GM, you may not like or allow this, and that's your prerogative. But the 'system' supports it.

 

Plus, while it may be 'cheaper' by putting this in a VPP, the VPP is self-limiting by its Control Cost. A separate Summon outside of a VPP can add modifiers/limitations allowing the summoning of a more powerful demon (for example) to do the summoner's will. But adding more limitations in a VPP will never allow you to increase the power of the demon beyond the Active Cost limit.

[Hugh Neilson]

IIRC, you don't get to pay 1/5 the cost for the vehicle, then divide that by 5 again for the Summon.  That keeps it under control.  And even slavishly loyal Summons have a task limit before the Summon must be refreshed.

[iamlibertarian]

Exactly. I don't disagree with any of that. So then what is the problem? With Slavish a 200 point hoverbike costs you 40 x (1+1) = 80 points via Summon. Same for a 200 point demon which is Slavishly Devoted.

 

All I am asking is that (back to the original question), if you wish to Summon a Specific Being/Object with which you have had multiple contacts before, or maybe your personal hoverbike which you have tricked out with your custom paint job and decorations (saddle bags, leather handlebar grips with streamers, sissy bar removed, and so on), what y'all think of that variant on Specific Being I mentioned in the original post to this thread.

 

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

You've laid out five different SFX for this and I'm going to address each one in turn. 

Priest calling [god]:

Does the Priest actually have the points invested needed to summon [god]?  If he does and something not-a-god comes through, he's getting screwed on points.  If he doesn't, how can he give [god] an opportunity to be Summon'd? 

Isn't this just Expanded Class?  "Summon ### point Servant of [god], Expanded Class any servant of [god]" seems to be the game effect, the god choosing what to send is just SFX. 

 

Mage calling demon:
Same as above. 

 

Summoner calling pegasus:

Why is "sometimes you don't get your pegasus in particular" an Advantage?  What benefit does sometimes but not always getting Mister Flaptrot provide?  You're getting a ### point pegasus to ride either way, right? 

 

Warrior challenging demon:

This one really feels like a Limitation.  I'd expect the warrior's hated foe to try to screw the guy at every opportunity. 

I also don't see the point of having a power that lets you fight a demon any time you want, unless your aim is to be dishonorable and mind-control the demon or use it as a distraction instead of fighting it. 

 

Rider summoning hoverbike:

I don't even get this one.  How does the hoverbike make any sort of decision?  What subordinate would a hoverbike have that it could send instead? 

 

Overall I agree with the first response in the thread: It feels like you're reinventing something that exists already under current rules. 

[iamlibertarian]

All valid points. Thank you

[dmjalund]

gods often have avatars who aremore likely to appear in response to a priests prayer

[steriaca]

16 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

 

Rider summoning hoverbike:

I don't even get this one.  How does the hoverbike make any sort of decision?  What subordinate would a hoverbike 

Opps. Overerased.

 

A hoverbike could think if a computer and sensors were bought for it. With such stuff in play as a part of the hoverbike, then sure it can be summoned.

 

What we are afraid of is people thinking of buying game breaking powers and thinking they can get away with it by using the summon power. You can't put an attack on a separate character sheet and use the Summon power to "summon" it when you want to use it.

 

Why this does not work:

-power needs it's own INT, SPD, OCV, DCV, SPD, among other characteristics to function. It can't use yours.

-power needs a physical form so it can be attacked and such. What happens if it is 'killed' (negative BODY)?

 

While this can work, it has to be done in a way so it is not thugly.

 

Reminds me of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure myself...

[massey]

20 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

All I am asking is that (back to the original question), if you wish to Summon a Specific Being/Object with which you have had multiple contacts before, or maybe your personal hoverbike which you have tricked out with your custom paint job and decorations (saddle bags, leather handlebar grips with streamers, sissy bar removed, and so on), what y'all think of that variant on Specific Being I mentioned in the original post to this thread.

 

 

I've always seen Summon: Specific Being as an attack power/roleplaying thing.  It gives you nothing that generic Summon doesn't give you, unless it makes sense within the campaign world, and it costs more points at that.

 

Summon: Knight would call forth a generic knight.  Of course he'd have the stats that you paid for, so in combat he's just as powerful as Sir Dave the Loudmouth.  They've both got 20 Str, 18 Dex, 4 Speed, a magic sword, etc.  But to actually get the Sir Dave the Loudmouth (either because you want to kill that son of a bitch or because he has a key piece of information you need), you've got to pay extra for Specific Being.  Summon with that advantage could be used to rescue people who are trapped in a dungeon.  It could call up the ghost of your dead dad so you can get some needed info from him, like who killed him, or where he hid all his money.

 

In my opinion, Specific Being is highly situational, and probably very campaign-specific.  What do I care if I call forth my specific Batmobile or some brand new Batmobile?  Unless I left my lunch sitting in it, it doesn't matter.  It has the same game stats.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

5 hours ago, massey said:

I've always seen Summon: Specific Being as an attack power

It's very good at that, but it's horrifyingly binary. 

If you have enough AP to Summon your hated foe, he's dead.  Call him up, a dozen goons pound him from behind for 1/2 DCV and 2x STUN.  Call him up, he appears in a room full of poison gas you've taken the antidote to.  Call him up, EGO roll, order him to do something spectacularly suicidal.  The list goes on.  And not in fun entertaining ways, in "Jim, make a new PC because" ways.  It's a degenerate power.

But if you don't have enough AP to Summon somebody, it's completely impotent. 

It's the sort of thing that gets tables flipped or characters banned.  Instantly bringing somebody to you with no roll (except the Mind Control Plus roll) is just not healthy for the game.

 

And why should you have to pay +1 for roleplaying?