Spence

I've read all of Weber's Honorverse books plus the anthologies. There are a few stories I have missed, individual stories in various scifi collections I haven't read. But of all the books the Crown of Slaves series was meh and I kind of ground my way through it out of stubbornness. It just didn't have that zing that Weber's books normally have for me. Another series you may like is Weber's Safehold series.

I'm with you there. In an action RPG where players are heroes there is a need for enemies. So having a "stock" evil to fight works for a game, especially when they are not real.

No need to apologize at all. I was just trying to clarify what I actually meant not criticize. In the last few months I've found my points being buried in the general spirited discussions and lost. So I decided to clarify. I have also stopped following threads when they depart from the subject or get too spirited, which has done wonders for my personal calm and blood pressure 😁 But I do agree with many points brought up by yourself and others.

After reading this I was just going to ignore the thread. And then I read this. Also not to be argumentative, but simply wanting to clarify a simple concept. Neither of the above posts even touch on "playable out of the box", they talk about game construction from full rule books. These are completely different topics. It is almost like talking about the pro's and cons of a bass boat and getting buried with comments about the benefits of owning a helicopter. Basic concepts. Building an RPG character is not playing an RPG. Building an adventure and NPC/Creatures is not playing an RPG. They are preparatory tasks that need to be performed prior to being able to actually play. This is not a good thing or a bad thing, it just is. D&D 5ed has had two (that I know of) introduction sets that provide everything needed to run a game for the DM and players. Characters, Adventure, etc. Plus guidance for the DM to run it. FFG's Star Wars RPG has one introduction set for each of their three SW theme games (EotE, AoR and FaD). They contain everything needed to play a game of Star Wars. Chaosium has a Call of Cthulhu 7th intro box that has pre-generated PC's and an adventure plus guidance for new players and GM's. Catalyst has a Shadowrun beginner box set that allows new people to play Shadowrun. Pathfinder has one too All of these are "playable out of the box" with little or no prep. Are these "sets" complete rule-sets? No, but they are "playable out of the box". D&D's core three (PHB, MM, DMG) are not "playable out of the box". PF's main rulebook is not "playable out of the box". Star Wars RPG core books are not "playable out of the box". Champions Complete and Hero System 6th are not "playable out of the box". Call of Cthulhu, Pulp Cthulhu and Down Darker Trails are not "playable out of the box". They are all complete core rule sets designed to allow players to BUILD games. Some are more flexible than others, but they all perform the task well. Most games that are "playable out of the box" are designed to allow new players to actually PLAY a game and see if they like it. Some are designed to play out multiple sessions and some even give the players a taste of limited character advancement. But all of them have the purpose of "if you liked this and had fun, buy the full game and make your own adventures and characters". There have been a few games that combined the complete core rules with the intro-set to present an actual full RPG that was "playable out of the box". These are rare though. There is a difference between "complete rule set" and "playable out of the box". One is not better than the other, they have different purposes. In my opinion, the Hero System (any version) would have a greater benefit from a "intro playable out of the box" game than most others. Most other RPG's are more structured and provide completed items (NPC's, Creatures, Equipment, etc.) that allow easier entry. Hero requires the Players to literally build everything before play, which is a steep entry. But most of the attempts I have seen founder when too much content is jammed in. Such as character creation and a such. But once again that is an opinion. But "playable out of the box" means I open the box and play. Not, I open the box, figure out how to generate a character and then figure out how to build an adventure and then try to play. Some people do not like Intro Boxes that are "playable out of the box" because they do not have all the rules. But there are a lot of players out there that started playing with those intro boxes.

To amplify a bit. All the creation/build rules are built into HD. When you select an item you will get a short info block on it, but it is not arranged or presented in a manner that it can replace the rulebook. It supports both 6th and 5th edition and most of the buildable content from the various supplements can be acquired by buying add on "packs". Some of these will be very useful if you decide to use HD. I am away from my books and on my smartphone so I am working from my old man's brain. But for Fantasy Hero the equipment and martial arts book packs are almost essential. I myself usually build with paper and pencil followed by entering everything into HD to check my math and give me a clean easy to update copy. The program refers to all outputs such as character sheets as "export formats". From what I have been told, they are easy to make if you are a programmer type. If you are not, like me, there are dozens of them for free download on the Hero website. I haven't used it much lately, but when I was running a game it was invaluable for the ease and speed to create and maintain all the npc's. I have or have used multiple character building software packages and in my personal opinion, HD is hands down the best dedicated build program out there. It includes the ability to make changes, or custom powers/skills/etc. But as was mentioned, it is not a replacement for the book.

Errr.... Play out of the box implies that I can buy the book on Monday and run it on Tuesday. It is a complete set of rules, but you can't play it out of the box. The GM will need to make all the design decisions and create an adventure before you can actually play. For instance, it gives you a lot of advice on magic systems, but does not include a complete ready to play magic system. If you wanted magic users you will need to define what magic is and then create the the specifics before your players would be able to create a mage. Don't mistake my meaning. FHC is a great game, but it does not pre-define anything specific setting wise.

Who? I think I am not a person they are influencing since I don't even know who they are. I'm guessing they are like the POD people that have successfully been saving me money for the last few years. Since I can no longer go to a game companies site and quickly scan their news and then read the items of interest, I no longer have any idea when there are new releases. So I no longer buy a fraction of the gaming products I used to.

I'd need a little more context and define extraordinary equipment. In my experience this usually is just a player trying to game the system and get something or a advantage over the other players for nothing. They want a device that we have or could have now in the real world ignoring that the far more primitive world of the game wouldn't have the tools to build the tools to make it. Let alone have any idea of how to. If the equipment is just a way to have magical equipment and not call it magical, then I would treat it just like magic. A firearm may not "magic" in a more modern setting, but it is definitely "magic" in a D&D style setting. That is unless you are thinking of something entirely different....

I don't know. I agree that anime is far more influential than it was, but I don't have think it is impacting RPGs that much. If it was the case, D&D would be fading away. Hero can do that style of play easily, but systems like 2d20 could do that too.

FFG has three distinct Star Wars game. Same rules, but distinctly different models of play. Edge of the Empire is about smugglers, explorers and other adventurers the generally don't interact with the actual Empire that often. No Jedi or Sith. The only force related is force sensitive, which can't really do anything force wise. Age of Rebellion has the PCs as soldiers, spies and such against the Empire. Also no real force users. Force and Destiny is the game that showcases Jedi and Sith. Note: None of the games are designed to allow you to play the Empire or anything Darkside/Sith. You play a good guy or a roguish character against the Empire, or you don't pkay officially. Last time I looked there were a few homebrews for playing Stormtroopers and such. But that is not the setting.

This probably sounds stupid to ask, but are the players actually familiar with the Star Wars universe? Not the video games, but the movies and the various TV series like Clone Wars? The first few times I tried to run Star Trek Adventures I had much the same issue until I got them to actually watch part of TNG and DS9. While they all swore the "knew" Star Trek, it was amazing how their play style went from D&D with Lasers to Star Trek. I ran some FFG Star Wars AoR when it first came out and also had the D&D with light sabers syndrome until I was able to get them to watch Clone Wars. Plus I asked them if they were fine with me giving suggestions and nudges on what was possible to do in the game for the first few sessions (after Clone Wars). Once they realized the openness of the system and that the die results charts are not iron clad results tables, but more of a guide to establish a baseline of what happens.Once everyone gets into the swing of interpreting the "bones", the game will really take off.

Yes, my experience is much of the same line. To me the purpose of the GM in a superhero game is to provide opportunities for the heroes to be superheroic. I've used all the tropes I mentioned, but they must be used sparingly. I never understood why people freaked out about being captured until now. For me my villains planned the capture and prison based on the villains knowledge of the heroes. Not the GMs. So generally, unless the PC is a poorly written one trick pony, they could easily escape using that power, talent or skill the villain didn't know about. More than one PC pretty much ensures an escape. But you can't make it too easy or it won't be dramatic.

First off, sorry for starting a thread and then just disappearing. I was doing getting ready to rotate my tires and rediscovered I am old. I went to pick up a jack-stand and my lower back and side protested enough for me to be down for a couple days and really really slow for a week or so. That said. I just read through all the comments and they were very interesting. Thank you all for them. I did notice that a lot of them seemed to draw on non-Supers influence. Which is something I would have never thought about. I guess I shift some major mental gears when I go between a supers RPG, a sword-swinger like D&D, other games like CoC, ToC, or even a game like 2d20 Conan which runs entirely different from something like D&D. I would only use the tropes I listed in a Superhero game or maybe a Pulp Action game. To me they simply do not fit in a D&D or Call of Cthulhu game. Oh, I’ll use kidnapping or other violent crimes in a GUMSHOE game or assassination in a espionage game like Delta Green or NBA. Back to Superheroic. None of the tropes should be used too often. Doing so simply reduces their dramatic impact. I did notice a lot of references to PC’s being forced into situations, capture etc., with out any ability to influence it. Basically, lack of any choice. To me that is completely unrelated to the tropes themselves and are more of a poor GM issue. In a Champions game, captures usually happen after the hero in question is knocked out. I personally don’t do it willy nilly. A capture serves a purpose. Since my games feed on the players actions, by the time my game involved a capture scenario the players are probably expecting the attempt. After all, by that time they would have a pretty good idea of who their archenemy was. I am personally very against player versus player in any of the games I run or play in. So on the betrayal front it will always have to be an NPC. All of the tropes I mentioned are not something you can use very often, and then they have to be directly enabled by the players themselves. I did notice more than one mention that implies the trope is bad instead of the issue being a non-Roleplayer. Again, I am thinking of a superhero game, and the example may be thinking of D&D or something. The vast majority of the games I run these days are one-shots with pre-gens, but my campaigns haven’t been rejected by players in a very long time. While I don’t consider myself a genius GM, I am not the novice either. My next planned campaign will be interesting. Using Sandy Peterson’s Cthulhu Mythos and a little GUMSHOE influenced homebrew I am running a D&D 5th Ed horror game the next time my group gets together. The plan is after the D&D game is complete, I will convert the PC’s to Hero and then run another fantasy horror. The eventual plan is to run either a Champions game or a Fantasy Hero game. Back to the subject. This has given me a lot of info to mull over. Thanks

Finished the second season of Titans. First off I have come to understand that the show is either a "inspired by" but not actually based on series. Or maybe based on one of the many "I have no talent but will shamelessly rewrite an existing story" steaming messes. The cast did a really good job of portraying the parts they were given. Starfire was a lot better, especially after they dumped the 70/80s streetwalker costume and let her dress and act like an adult. Most of the rest were fine except Raven and Beastboy. Instead of Raven being mature beyond her years due to the intense training received to resist Trigon. She is a completely untrained angst teen. And BB was reduced to a one trick pony victim. And why they swapped Terra for this Rose I don't understand. For someone who has no real understanding of the comic, it was pretty good. But if were familiar with any of the original storylines, the way the characters have been nerfed will detract from your enjoyment

By first few years were with D&D, Boot Hill and such. It wasn't until 82 that I discovered Champions. Your first 13 years sounds similar to that time I was part of my most fondly remembered game group. But one of the major differences is we rotated GM's and the way we ran our supers games was very different from non-Champs. Our love of Pulp/Comics really only came out with Champions and later Justice Inc. IMO I think you may be right about the dislike being more from a bad experience than the trope itself.

@1 I totally agree. IMO there are only # reasons for a capture. 1 - Facilitate the opportunity for the daring rescue, 2 - Facilitate the opportunity for the daring escape or 3 - 1 or 2 with the addition of information about the villains plans. It sounds to me like the GM in your description was either new and inexperienced or maybe just a bad GM. I like to think I am not that bad. @5 Well you do have to be very careful and be sure to remember that what plain to see by the GM will be a hard to notice mystery for the players. In my example I had to make sure the players realized that there was a spy in the woodwork before advancing that particular storyline. My idea of a GM's job in a supers game is to provide a nefarious plot that allows the Heroes to perform dazzling and daring acts of heroism. Not to mention that it is usually based on the players own Disadvantages. I agree with the sentiment of a world where all player also GM, but I don't think we will ever see it. I will say that back in the day when I had a steady Champions group we regularly rotated GM duty and it was a blast. I wish I could find that again.

So, I have been pondering a few recurring points I keep reading on the boards. While there are many variations they all boil down to: 1) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where Player Characters are captured. 2) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where enemies and villains return after the players thought they were dead. 3) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where captured villains escape or get released from prison. 4) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where the villain will threaten innocents with death or dismemberment to force the PC to allow them to escape or capture the PC’s. 5) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where an NPC friend/subordinate will turn out to be a betrayer or enemy. Now in many cases I can see or understand the view point from people who came to RPG’s from video/computer games or the D&D/Pathfinder type of game. Most RPG’s do not allow for combat that does not kill. Many have “nonlethal combat” crudely pasted on top of the existing system, but not integral to it. Hero System is one that does. In fact, Hero is one of the only systems I know that has a unified system that handles physical, mental and magical abilities in it core system. Most other “universal” systems address things by adding additional books. But enough rambling, here are my thoughts on the five items. I am not wanting to convince anyone of anything. Instead, I would really like to hear others thought. For, against or other. So, I’ll begin. 1) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where Player Characters are captured. I don’t understand this one. Almost all of the action adventure books and even movies have this as a central trope. How can a PC make a daring escape if no one is ever captured? How can the players ever get to make the daring rescue? For sword swingers (what I call D&D, PF etc.), capture has to be shoe horned in because those systems really do not have integral options for being knocked out vice killed. Hero has this as part of the core mechanics. In fact, for supers games I have always played with all the players having stables of characters. You can only play one PC at a time, but you will always have another PC to play if one of your PC’s is captured or hospitalized for a while. I thought that this was “normal” for super’s RPGs. 2) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where enemies and villains return after the players thought they were dead. Again, this is a common. A very common trope in the genre. Doc Savage, the Spyder from pulp books. Comics had this as well. Literature and movies also have these. I love to used this is an ongoing campaign. 3) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where captured villains escape or get released from prison. Again, why hamstring the story. The idea of a powerful enemy escaping is pretty much a core part of crime-based stories. The crook gets off on a technicality and the Heroes/Police know he is evil but cannot prove it. This is especially a part of more gritty street level campaigns with Drug Lords and such. 4) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where the villain will threaten innocents with death or dismemberment to force the PC to allow them to escape or capture the PC’s. I meet this with a Huh? Have they read a comic? Have they watched a crime drama? This is a normal ploy. Plus, it adds to the intensity of the chase and make the PC’s plan for the next time. Just how do we capture the Blastmaster when he plants bombs as a diversion to enable him to escape? 5) Players completely dislike and will not play in a game where an NPC friend/subordinate will turn out to be a betrayer or enemy. I don’t use this one often, but it is an awesome way to insert drama and danger. Most of the times I have used this is with “mystery disadvantages”. A Mystery Disadvantage is when a player decides they will take a disadvantage such as Hunted but do not want to define it. They would rather be surprised like some in some stories. My usual method is to hold the points until something happens, then I use the points. After a super-battle where the team defeated the villains but there had been civilian deaths, I used 10 points of Mystery Hunted to make two 5-point Hunted’s which were competent normal NPC’s that blames the Hero for the death of their loved ones and plotted revenge. One was a reporter that gave the players heck and the other got themselves hired as staff at the team’s headquarters and fed intelligence to villains. The revelation of the spy was just awesome! We never got to the point where the reporter was discovered. So, what are your thoughts?

If you like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories, add Simon R. Green's Hawk and Fisher books.

Absolutely. But you actually reinforce Brian S's point. Gandalf was most definitely a Wizard.......that routinely demonstrated the combat prowess of a elite warrior with both sword and stave. Something that cannot be done easy or well in the class/level games. Not that class/level games are bad. They are written to serve a purpose and IMO do it well. A game like Hero just allows people to play outside that box.

This has been an issue with Hero'dom for decades. They can get even worse when the idea of pre-gen adventures is raised. To be honest though, the current board is the most accepting to new ideas it has been in a while. A few years back I actually stopped coming to the board for over a year because it had gotten pretty caustic. I was actually given a "warning" by one of the moderators at the time and when I ask what I was being warned about he threatened a ban. I still don't know what I had supposedly done, but I lot of the "old guard" types are no longer on the board. I have to wonder if things were cleaned up while I was gone. But the current forum is pretty relaxed and easy going with no one spazzing out (as far as I know). Not mention the ignore feature which allow me to avoid the people that just go out of their way to misunderstand what someone says and then just don't let it go. It is amazing how ignoring eight users can transform a forum.

Absolutely not a ruleset. But it is a condensed representation of point costs as well as a condensed combat summary with the screen completing rounding out the info. I found it extremely helpful as a fast reference during play and used to use it during character or equipment creation, only going back to the full book if I was trying something "new". I had always hoped 6th Edition would come out with a Resource Kit.

I always found the Resource Kit booklet to be worth it's weight in gold. I actually bought multiple copies of the Resource Kit just so I could have at least one for each player at the table.

Drat! Must remember to read the entire thread before replying....

Here you go 👍