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On 9/18/2023 at 2:17 PM, Doc Democracy said:

I was sure I saw a limitation that meant you could only use it after a certain period had lapsed since its last use, thought it was called cooldown or something.  It is like phasers that overheat and need to cool down before firing again. Could not see it in main rulebook or in Star Hero.

8 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Doc, I am sure I recall a "cooldown" in the past as well, but I can't remember where.

I found a few topics on Cooldowns. Would these be what you were thinking about?
 

39 minutes ago, dougmacd said:

Agreed. Is there a reason you don't simply use a limited power?

• +4d6 Blast, Only usable after 12 segments of combat (-1)
• 4d6 RKA, No Range, AoE: Explosion, Personal Immunity, 1 Charge, Only usable at half health (-1½)

Just set the limitation values to something reasonable for the character/campaign. (I.e., dependent on character SPD, average number of rounds of combat, etc.)

 

Or buy the powers normally and limit them with a Physical Complication:

• Power X deals four dice less damage the first 12 segments of combat (Infrequent, Barely impairing)
• Can't use power Y if health is over 50% (Very frequent, Slightly impairing)

Again, set values appropriately. This makes things a little harder to track -- it won't be obvious one can't use the full power unless you look at the whole sheet.

 

 

Doug

Keep the criteria simple. Tracking phases or hits is easy; tracking points of damage or END spent is fiddly.

Hmm... that is an interesting idea as well. I would imagine it would be more of a limit on power over a Complication though, but I do see your point there. I agree that tracking Phases is probably the easiest, which is why I was thinking ever 12 phase. 

6 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Just in the rules (6th edition), if your attack has extra time it means, if you use another attack, the attack with extra time goes back to the start, and you need to wait the whole period of time again.

 

6E1 Page 374, "Attacks are an exception: if a character takes this Limitation for a power that requires an Attack Roll, he cannot make another attack until the power’s been used".

There is the usual, you can get special GM permission to ignore this.

Not sure why that didn't click for me. Thanks for the refresher, Doc. 

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

That sounded like Extra time for me, but for attacks that means you activate it and it takes a full turn to be ready to throw.  Problem is that it forbids you using other attacks in the meantime.

 

I was sure I saw a limitation that meant you could only use it after a certain period had lapsed since its last use, thought it was called cooldown or something.  It is like phasers that overheat and need to cool down before firing again. Could not see it in main rulebook or in Star Hero.

How would that forbid other attacks if they're not built with the same limits?

I've been working on building a few organizations that use minions and was wondering what other GMs consider maximum points for baseline minions. I'm thinking of Hydra/Cobra/Intergang kind of troops before they get any fancy gear or vehicles. 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

One option is a custom limitation.  Another might be a Dependence - that can be used to set conditions on powers, but this is only one power, so I don't like a Complication rather than a Limitation.

 

What about 1 Recoverable charge?  Normally, that would be a -1 1/4 limitation (two levels down the chart), and the charge would be recovered after combat.  This could recover during combat, but would not be usable until the character meets its recovery condition during the combat. That sounds like a reasonable trade-off, or at least a reasonable starting point for a limitation on the power. 

I considered Recoverable Charge as well. But with it having potential to pop up more than once in combat, would it truly be a single charge then? Time plays a big part in the build. 

 

Quote

From Overwatch Wiki:

 Ultimate charge is measured in points. Heroes start each round with no ultimate charge, and passively start gaining 5 ultimate charge points per second once the doors open. Additionally, charge can be gained through combat, with the amount of points gained equal to the amount of damage dealt to enemy heroes or healing dealt to yourself and your allied heroes. Heroes stop gaining charge when they reach their ultimate cost, meaning that it is not possible to "bank" ultimate charge towards the next ultimate when their ultimate is available.

Would it be feasible to have a Recoverable Charge that powers up after every 12 Phase?

4 minutes ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

There are a few ways you could do this, the problem is giving it a video game feel without making it a pain to track.  The simplest thing would be a custom limitation like "Power can only be used after X successful hits".  That might match what is in the video game, but now you have to track how many successful hits the character has achieved.  Also, the value of the limitation would change if the character decided to buy more levels or higher OCV so they could hit more often.  Video game powers don't always translate well into RPGs for that reason, because you don't have the computer doing the math for you.

 

If I were to build this, I think I would have the character take an END Reserve, with zero REC, and the limitation "END drops to zero if not used within 5 minutes of END Reserve charging" to make sure the Reserves always starts combat empty.  Then buy them an Aid to END, which goes into the END Reserve, and triggers every time they score a hit.  Once they have enough END in the Reserve, they can power their Ultimate Attack, but then they will have to build it back up before they can use it again.

See, that's why I was thinking Trigger (6E1 p. 349). It states:
 

Quote

This Advantage allows a character to set up a power that activates when a defined circumstance occurs. Some examples of Triggers include a button the character must press, a radio control device, an activation word or incantation, the passage of a particular amount of time, applying sufficient pressure, a reflex action, or reaching a certain altitude.

So making the Trigger "Activates after X Phases" or "Activates after 100 points of damage rolled" might work in that case, yes?

So with the END Reserve, it would be specific to that one power?

It doesn't really seem to be an END issue. It's more of an access limit. The character can't access their "breaker" ability until their meter is filled. So, as an example:

Template is attacking Archetype in a one-on-one battle. They use a power gauntlet that gives them Power Blast (Blast), Power Punch (HA), and Power Heal (Heal). They also have a "Breaker" ability called "Template Tussle" which is an 12m AOE Blast that's selective. But they only have access to it after they've attacked so many times (as its meter fills). 

How would I build something like that? I looked through HSMA and couldn't find anything. EDIT: I did look at Sequence Attacks, and it's close, but not quite the same. This is just something that powers up over time until the character has access to it. 

Howdy Herodom! I was looking at making some of the Overwatch characters for Champions, and had a bit of a hang up on their "Power Bar" powers. For those that don't play, these are powers that take time to charge based on your attacks and survival. How would someone build this? Would it be a Trigger? Or is there something else that represents this better?

2 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Couldn't help it so I downloaded Roadrunner onto this site. It can be located at the following:

 

 

 

 

 

Wow... they are annoying. 

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think the difference us whether you want to do it reliably or not.  Whether you want to gave to roll dice. The power I suggested would work reliably unless someone sought to intervene.

 

Personally, if it wasn't so much of a pain in the ass to do, I would gave every character have an SFX based VPP, where they could do anything their SFX justified.  That would feel superheroes, if it wasn't for the constant calculations on whether I could fly at that speed, shrugging off bullets while carrying the ark of the covenant....

See, this is where the Power Skill comes in for me. When making power stunts, I tend to have "stunt powers" cost extra END and RSR to perform. If they get too abusive (like using several times in a row), I require them to take the stunt as a new power. It's worked well over the years, and allows the players to test their heroes' powers in new directions. 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

It needs to be built and paid for if this is something the character plans on using on a regular basis and having it work reliably.  How to build it also depends on what the player wants to do with it.  If this is just something that the character might do once or twice in a campaign it probably does not need to be built.  If this is going to be a regular thing the character does, it needs to be defined.  

 

If all you want to do is to grab a single hostage, the grab by maneuver will allow you to do it but has penalties that make it difficult to count on.  The grab by maneuver takes a -3 OCV and -4 DCV, which puts the character at a real disadvantage.  By spending 5 points for a flying grab, it reduces the penalties to a -2 OCV and -1 DCV and Gives the character +10 STR to grab with.  So, a character with a flying grab can probably safely get two hostages with only a -1 to his DCV.   Using TK or Teleport as an attack would allow the character to save multiple targets without exposing the character to much danger.  Like I said earlier it depends on what the player wants to be able to do.  

For me, I'd allow something like "grabbing X and removing them from the field" as a new maneuver that doesn't need a power structure. IMHO, it's no different from performing other combat maneuvers like a Move By or Multi-Attack. Yes, it should have mods, but I don't believe that it should cost points. It's too much of a staple in the supers genre, which should mean that anyone can use it freely. Mind you, your campaign may vary, I just respectfully disagree with it costing points.

Does it really need to be built as a power/ability? I've always leaned into the genre conventions of a game over having to build every little piece. I can only imagine what someone like Superman would look like if every one of his tricks were statted out. Maybe look at making a custom maneuver over a power?

For Hero? Not much. I did run a Champions adventure where the heroes battled spellcasters looking to bring elder things to Earth. It was a bit darker than my usual games, but everyone had some fun. Most of the horror games I've ran were either in GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, or Chill.

I would say it's situational and a clear discussion of options to be had with the GM. In my case, I would probably allow a "I'm going to grab the guy at 30m speed and let him go into a building" as a damaging effect. Or I may rule that flying by and grabbing a target's arm may give you ONLY the target's arm (depending on how much Move By damage occurred). Could you do a fly by and just scoop someone up with no damage? Sure, so long as that's the style of the game. For example, playing in a four-color comic style game, you fly by and snag the crook to whisk off to jail. In a gritty, deconstructive game, you fly through the crook, splattering him around the area like  a Pollock painting. Ultimately, as you know, it comes down to how you and the GM want to portray the character, and how the GM uses the rules around the concept.

Really looking forward to this. If I can offer one piece of constructive criticism? Please skip the watermarked pages as was done on Strikeforce. It's a bit hard to read I've found. 

So will this be a kickstarter or crowd sourced in some way? 

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Note on Communication. My father always said “ You can tell people who you are but your actions tell them what you are.”

I was told something similar, N-B. "You can tell folks who you think you are, but your actions will prove you're either a liar or telling the truth. Unless you're a REALLY good liar."

I'm a pretty lucky guy as well. I met my wife while working as a chat cop for WotC back in the very late '90s. She was my first trainee, and things just hit off from there. 20 years later, we're still together and gaming regularly (both in groups and solo). That said, that luck was earned through some rough relationships. In high school, I was steadily dating someone that despised gaming. She tried it once, hated it, and tried everything she could to pull me away from it. The ex-wife, to her credit, tried to game and understand what the hobby was, but she had other "hobbies" that were more fitting to her. Honestly, it was after her that I started looking for someone that was already into gaming to spend my life with, as it was important to me and something I wanted to share (along with comics, movies, art, and world domination). 

With all that in context, I agree with everyone that said "Communicate." Talk about what you enjoy, and why it's important to you. Relationships are odd in so many ways, as we tend to form them on a context of common interests, but find the commonality fleeting at times, especially with the little things in life.

To bounce off the OP, has anyone ever played in a game where being "killed" was just taken out of the action and returned after the combat? I know that's more popular in modern games, but just wondering if anyone's played that way in Hero?

A few over the years. I think the first vaporized himself with a massive attack in one of the first Champions game I played in. In most cases, though, it was a discussion a player had with me (or visa versa). 

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

Are you still talking about a Champions computer game? We've had many discussions over the years about how to "help" Hero Games tabletop.

True. I'm straying too far from the topic. My apologies to the OP. This is a discussion for another thread, and another time. 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The war certainly rages on.  I think it was a huge shocker some years back when Pathfinder briefly outsold D&D.

 

Wars require financing and troops.

Pathfinder still occasionally outsells D&D. I wouldn't be shocked if you see D&D dip a bit when Critical Role brings out more of their own systems, or when Kobold Press releases their new game. I agree with the troops statement... but financing is all in what you can bring to the table. 3PP could really help Hero and Champions become more visible, particularly if they're of a good quality. 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Serendipity is unquantifiable and unpredictable. The odds of the kind of serendipity you're talking about for Hero are up there with winning a major lottery. Most of us have imagined what we'd do with a big lottery prize, but no one who's realistic bases their financial plan around it.

Maybe. But there are other ways to help a game outside of spending money. Don't get me wrong, buy products and all. But many of the popular games haven't gotten that without some serious work. That work doesn't necessarily equate to more money, but rather doing serious promotions. In a world where the internet is a low rent resource, there are better ways to create decent promotions. 

Let me ask everyone... if Hero (or any company for that matter) offered a Kickstarter to help them become more popular, would you support it? What would you expect in return? What do YOU think we (as fans) need to make Champions a better product line? What does Hero need? Yes, this has been asked before. But seriously... I'm not talking about "if I won the lottery" fantasies. What could Hero do right now that would make the game better for you?

Edit: What do you think Champions' main competitor is? What's Hero's?

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

It would be easier if your goal is to develop your own content. But then, why not just develop all your own content from scratch, rather than acquire an obscure IP - no, the CU is not going to attract hundreds of thousands of subscribers from the ranks of Hero Gamers - that will only provide a starting point because it is not generating much, if any, new content. A multimedia giant regularly spins off new content, so all we need to do is adapt it to the game.

 

 

D&D is a known brand name.  They won the marketing war. Where would you expect Hero to get the investment capital to publicize their name to a remotely similar extent?

 

I stand by what I said. There are ways to bring popularity to the brand without spending a fortune. It would need more serendipity than money in many ways. The right group, with the right story can create the right ripples. In a dream line up, taking super-streamers and gaming Hero would be awesome, and potentially create something amazing for Hero and Champions. The problem is, that group hasn't been found yet to tell that story.

And D&D may have won the battle, but the war still rages on, Hugh, and there's no end that I know...

8 hours ago, Simon said:

Why would a company pay for a "relatively unknown" IP when they could just create their own (as was done in the very examples you cite)?  What's the sell?

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The only reason would be any savings (time and $$) by using existing material rather than developing it internally.  From the game developer's perspective, Hero's IP is not a great choice as the computer gamers want to see regular content updates, and Hero isn't generating new content nearly rapidly enough to be a reliable source, so all they save is up front "initial world" development.

OTOH, Marvel and DC are not going to sell the IP rights in perpetuity like Hero did, so the developer is always at risk of the license not being renewed. That risk is also avoided by developing the IP in-house, of course.

 

Overall, if there was a huge benefit to be had, Cryptic would either exploit the IP or sell their rights to someone who will.  If they had a Marvel license, I have no doubt Marvel would be shopping the renewal rights around given how cryptic has faltered, but Marvel has a steady stream of new content (Movies, TV, comics) to market a game with their IP. 

 

Agreed that there is no real business case for the CU IP.

Well to begin with, cost savings. It would be easier, I would imagine, to work with a relatively unknown IP than something that's considered a multi-media giant. That said, there is a fanbase already built for Champions, and the ability to work with that could be in their favor IF they know how to market it and create the fervor needed for it to be successful. Let's look at Mark Millar for a second. Here's a guy who created a bunch of indie books (as well as some mainstream ones) that moved beyond the comics. Wanted, Kingsmen, Jupiter's Legacy... the guy cranks these things out almost like he's printing money. They're okay books, the movies can be fun, and some have even gone on to video games. Is he a great writer? That's subjective. What he is is a decent businessman. He hitched his wagon to Netflix a while back and is basically a content creator for them. Pretty much every comic he makes is owned by the streaming giant, and gives them a golden goose to make new works with. 
How does this apply to Champions? It's a similar concept, but needs a person/team to bring it some visibility. Why is D&D 5e doing so well, even amidst the crazy OGL steps they made? They have streamers and influencers buying into their brand. Critical Role, Dimension 20, and a slew of other shows hammer D&D into the brains of all that are watching. People want those kind of games, and to emulate those kind of groups. Add in that they have their own video game branch, and the money from Hasbro, and they can make slip ups and still land on their toes. For Champions, or any game IP, to be successful these days, you need people to see it, play it, folks to talk about it outside of its own groups, and people to understand it. Achieve these three things, and you'd see things change for the IP, and for the game as well. 

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Sketch, the thing is, what you're talking about was already tried, by Cryptic Studios. A developer with name recognition and experience in the genre, who put money and talent into designing it. The Champions IP already has a reputation among computer game designers, as that superhero game that started off promising but faltered, and that relatively few people play now. The IP was never fully exploited, and what Cryptic chose to do with it often doesn't reflect what the setting is really about; but that's what others in the CRPG field see when you mention Champions.

 

The ones who see its full potential are those of us in this community, and none of us are in a position to exploit it in the computer game field. It's a lovely dream, and playing "what if" is fun, but until one of us with game design credibility obtains a big whack of capital, it's just a dream.

Sure. But Cryptic dropped the ball with CO from the get-go, LL. I'm sure there were a ton of us that quickly bought in to play a MMO version of our favorite game, but what we got just wasn't Champions. At least not for me. The graphics were faltering even for the time, the game really felt reskinned, and, for me, it didn't feel like Champions. I always felt bad for anyone who bought a lifetime license, particularly since the game never really got better. IMHO, it felt like Cryptic had this thought about how cool a Champions MMO could be, and then just said "meh" during development. That has little to do with the IP, and more about the company it currently rests with. 

If a decent company was able to get the Champions IP and really do something with it... basically multi-media the heck out of it... I think it could contend with some of the smaller  to medium companies out there. What if someone like Dark Horse or Skybound could produce something new? What would a Champions game look like if Sony Interactive or Insomniac Games took a stab at it? There are more Hero and Champions fans out there that remember the game as something fun... the problem is they needed to be reminded why it was fun. 

I would go into my usual rant about book design and production quality, but I've gotten tired of repeating myself. I'm sure you can find it on the boards if you search my name. Someday I would love to see Champions return to what it was and could've been... heck, I hope I can even help at times...

12 hours ago, Simon said:

Let's remove the IP rights from consideration -- assume that they're yours. You've managed to get a moment with one of the higher ups at a major development studio (e.g. Blizzard).  Give us your elevator pitch.  Why should they have any interest in purchasing the IP for Champions vs. going with a well-known commodity like Marvel or DC...or writing their own?

Well, to begin with, it's relatively unknown to the public at large. That works as an advantage in some respects. While Marvel & DC have "household names" at their fingertips, something like the Champions IP could piggyback off that fame depending on its use. Using the video game example, there are plenty of big games that have no ties to any other property. God of War, Call of Duty, GTA... none are based off other properties and have created a large fanbase for themselves with a draw extending beyond their games. The same technically could be done with the Champions IP. Would it be difficult? Possibly, but not impossible. The harder part, as we know, is expectations. A Champions CRPG may have to shed some of the HERO system to work properly. Creating a Crusader game like the Arkham games could be fun, but it wouldn't be a game with mechanics that we all love and play. 

I wouldn't be shocked if the right bid was made that someone could buy the Champions IP. Whether that was for HERO or something else wouldn't really matter. 

I was always bummed we never got the old CRPG that was teased in Adventurer's Club...

9 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

Problem is those are rather rare, a bit too rare to be the only thing affecting desolid.

Not really anymore rare than say Gravity Control or Momentum Control. It's only as rare as the GM needs it to be.