Sketchpad

11 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Ben was a combat pilot, and then an Astronaut candidate, so the INT is good where it is. 

I disagree. His raw intelligence shouldn't be that high. Ben is more skilled than intelligent. Skills in Physics, Engineering, Biology and Math would suffice at the appropriate level. YMMV, mind you.

EDIT: Using the same concept, I wouldn't give Hal Jordan an 18 INT either. Hal is a bit creative, but he's more skilled than raw smarts. 

13 hours ago, BigJackBrass said:

Obviously not a free peek, but the PDF was released in sections through the Hero Patreon. I've been laid low by covid and a post-covid lung infection, so although I have the files I've yet to even start reading them, I'm afraid. 

 

Glancing at it now, there are indeed nine sample characters at the end of the book. The format is various modules you assemble to make a character. I'll put a screenshot of the ToC here, which of course I'll remove if it's not acceptable to do so:

 

 Interesting. This helps a lot, BJB. Thanks!

While he's Flame On, Johnny should have some heightened defense, maybe some Damage Reduction (particularly for Heat), Flight, and, of course, a Damage Shield. In some stories, he's also slightly Desolild too. There have been some comics where Johnny's gotten some power boosts, and that may be what the article is referring to. The previous story to the current had Johnny consistently radiating heat and flame due to something Doom had done. He's recently returned to his normal self, only with a porn 'stache. 

My two cents for what it's worth...

• I think his Dex is a bit high. I would say something closer to a 13, as his size does slow him down a bit.
• His Body seems a bit high as well. I've seen Ben take some serious damage throughout his lifetime, to the point where he was seriously injured. 
• His Int is waaaay too high. Ben's a smart guy, but 18? Maybe 11 or 12. Most of his smarts would be shown in skills over raw intelligence. 
• The same with his Ego and Pre. Ego should be buffered with Mental Defense, and while Ben is a likeable guy, his Pre should plateau around a 15 or so, and buffered with Rep and skills.
• I would lower his PD and ED a bit and supplement it with 50% rDR. He can take a LOT of damage, but maybe a 40/30 would be better?
• His Stun is a bit high as well. Again, he's taken some serious damage and has good defenses to start.
• I would raise the FF rep to 3d6 or 4d6. They are VERY popular and public. Additionally, I would give him "The Ever Lovin' Blue Eyed Thing" Rep at around 3d6. 
• Under his LS, I would drop Immortal and just extend his age. Some future stories show he suffers from some old age effects, it just takes a lot longer.
• I would increase his Power Defense, and give him 0 END with Strength (thus allowing for a lower END if needed).
• It's an interesting idea giving him the WE for martial arts, but have you considered giving him a STR Trick MP?
• Skip the Torch as a rival in general. That's just Ben and Johnny goofing off. I would say The Hulk would be more of a rival.
• His Rocky Form Disad should be more hindering, as it should also add his weight and general size. Things often have to be specially made for him.

2 hours ago, HeroGM said:

This is three characters that was cut from the final product that the author shared on Facebook. Golden_Age_Trio.pdf

So there are finalized characters in the product? I guess I'm just trying to figure out the format of the book and how useful it might be.

So the description is a bit sparse for Heroes in a Hurry, and I'm wondering a few things...

• Is it basically templates for powers, skills, etc.?
• Is there anything there for the veteran player?
• What types of heroes can be made using it? Are there specific power types?

My suggestion with the initial character is to look at the starting guidelines for a hero in the Champions or Hero book. The MP seems a bit high in power, but it seems that it's been resolved.

On 3/23/2023 at 12:02 PM, Hermit said:

You're looking at a Variable Power Pool effect.

I agree with Hermit. This is a Variable Power Pool that specializes in shape-shifting and duplicating powers. Alternatively, they could take shape-shifting with a VPP limited to powers of the form they would take. To cut down on the adjustment time, I would ask the player to have some pre-built powers that you could approve, and that they could use. Alternatively, you could also have a few builds available for an adventure if they decide to change into someone used.

How do they mimic a character? Maybe they might have a Detect (Powers) kind of scan that gives them some rough info?

19 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Is DCV the only luck based power you are purchasing?  If so purchase +3 DCV with the limitation 4 charges for 7 points.  To me luck can be used for a lot more than just DCV.  Since overall levels can be used for anything including increasing your DCV, using overall levels allows more versatility.  Instead of buying each thing your luck can affect separately buy one power that can apply to everything.  3 overall levels with the limitation 4 charges cost 18 points and can be applied to almost any roll.  About the only thing it does not apply to is skills that you only have a familiarity with.   To be able to apply the luck more often increase the number of charges. 

 

If you have multiple things your luck can do putting them in a multipower and applying the charge limitation to the multipower might work.  Skill levels are normally not allowed in a multipower but check with the GM to see if they would allow it. 

 

The problem with using luck level for a limitation is by default you only roll them when the GM decides to.  This means your access to the power is so random it could be worthless.  If you use the luck rules form the AGP you will have levels available so often it is probably not worth a limitation.  My advice is don’t link the luck power to luck, use it as a special effect and build the power the way you want them to function.  If you want your luck to run out use charges or something similar.

The problem with using charges is it's too static. I'm looking for a more random resource to pull from, hence the luck points. As I've stated, I'm well versed in Hero, and understand that this goes beyond the norm. If I could have, I would've put a "STOP" sign next to the initial post. One of the things I'm looking at is removing Luck as a GM action, and putting it in the player's hands. It never made sense to me that someone would spend points to have the GM declare what might happen outside of a "Mystery Power" or something similar. In fact, thinking on it, I don't see why Luck couldn't be spent on a variety of effects that would be luck-based, such as re-rolls or bumps to specific actions (like OCV/DCV for example), as well as potentially "powering" certain powers with the proper limitations.

Overall, the more I post, the more I realize that I run a different style of Champions than others. And that's okay.

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

If you want to have something that always increases the chance of you succeeding just buy overall levels.  Put whatever limitations you want to make luck work the way you want it.  I already suggested activation roll if you want some amount of randomness.  If you want your luck to be something that you can run out of use charges.  Skill levels look kind of mundane on paper, but they work surprisingly well for luck.   

That wouldn't work in the manner I'm thinking. Let's say you have a a power called Lucky Dodge that's bought as DCV that requires a luck point to use. When your points run out, so does your dodge. The same character has 4d6 Luck, which could give them 0-4 luck points to activate said power. 

22 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I agree that the standard luck is kind of boring and often does not seem to be that impressive.  I have used the optional luck rules in the APG for a couple of characters and that seemed to work out a lot better.  Being able to have some control of when your luck is used is a big part of it.  Normal luck is more something that happens to your character instead of something your character does.

 

Used properly it can have a really dramatic impact on the game.  It was on several occasions the reason we succeeded.  If you save the rerolls for when things are really close it can be very helpful.  Once in a Fantasy Hero game I used it when the attack on the main villain missed getting a critical hit by one point.  Since you have t roll better on the reroll that guaranteed the hit was a critical hit. I had a precog in a champions game the used as his main power.   The precog was actually changing the future but the game mechanics I used was luck.  He had the whole mysterious vibe going and had a physical limitation he could not tell what he saw in his visions.  He would give the other characters cryptic advice that often did not seem to make sense.  When the other character followed his advice things usually worked out better.  After a while the other players would usually do what he wanted them to.     

That depends on how you run things. Luck could be a stat that you could spend to make rolls better, for example. This worked well for Marvel Superheroes when it was called Karma. The rules as presented have always seemed incomplete to me. Again, though, I haven't had a chance to review the APG rules yet. It's something I'm planning to look at soon.

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

In all those cases, the luck is too consistent to feel like luck, it feels like a reliable power, in BRP it is indeed a roll which you are looking to avoid.  I reckon there needs to be something different in how it is done to make it feel like it is not part of the core gameplay, something extraneous that makes the difference.

I am wondering whether it is something that might turn up unexpectedly - like does your roll hit?  If not, have you rolled a double (if yes, you get lucky!).  You could push your luck, looking for an effect (extra damage, more movement, a successful acquisition of some information, etc) by rolling an additional dice - if that means you get a three dice combo (1,2,3 or 2,3,4) then you get that extra little bonus.

 

That might be relatively useful.  I love the diminishing pool mechanic - when you have a pool of resource, or time, you can make its depletion unpredictable.  So, say you have 8 luck points, when you use your luck you roll 9D6 and remove any dice that roll 6.  You will probably get more than 8 uses of your luck but in at least one of the games I have used the last three dice vanished all at once, whereas in another the last dice failed to roll 6).

 

The reason for using the extra dice is because it leaves the potential for your luck going below 0 and causing you to suffer from unluck - it adds tension to the use of the pool and thus "pushing your luck".

See, that's similar to what I was thinking with the initial power. Roll Xd6 Luck, generate Luck Points, and you could use them to help your character with a lucky break (or to power some powers even). The same concept could be used with Unluck, only it's a GM expenditure to hinder your character. Rolling doubles reminds me a bit of the AGE system, which had a Stunt Die that could be spent when rolling doubles. 

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Ultimately every roll is a percentage chance of something happening, the key element is whether you can come up with moments the player feels secure and his luck runs out, or can push his luck to gain something extra, or thinks he is doomed and his luck provides another chance.  I think it is difficult to come up with something that consistently works well in game.

I believe there are at least a few games out there that create such consistency when it comes to Luck or a variable of it. Hero Points from Pathfinder, Luck and Hero Points from Mutants & Masterminds, heck even BRP has a Luck stat that can be expended (as well as rolled). 

7 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

If you want the luck to have a chance of running out, make it a jammed roll instead of an activation roll.  The limitation Jammed on a 14 or less that has to be made each phase is a -3/4 limitation.  The way it would work is every phase you want to use the power you need to make a 14 or less roll.  If you fail not only does the power not activate you cannot use it for the rest of the session.        

Again, I'm not looking for a roll. I'm pretty well versed in Hero as the system stands (and how it's stood for most of its editions), and know I could use a variety of rolls to create a effect that makes the power unpredictable. 

Let me see if I can express myself a bit better... 

Luck, as it stands, has always been a bit bland to me. It always seemed like the power should be something more rather than "you might get a lucky break" when the GM rolls properly. I've seen it get optional and house rules, but never entirely to my liking. Having played other games where it's possible, I'd like to see it, and by association Unluck, a bit more robust. 

17 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I am not sure what you are aiming at, just a mechanic minus the context.  Folk responded from a mechanical perspective but you are thinking in an effects way.

 

What we're you looking to achieve in-game?  You might get better suggestions that way.

 

Doc

In all honesty, I guess I'm looking for an alternative to the usual suspects. Luck is always something I've tried to make more dynamic for my games, so I'm looking at expanding it in some different ways. One such way was using it as an expenditure for luck-based powers. Sometimes your luck just runs out, and it'd be nice to emulate that beyond an activation roll.   

Thanks for all the input folks. Activation doesn't work for me, as it's just not what I was looking for. I'll have to take a closer look at the APG's luck rules, as I kind of dig that. 

I'm working on a probability-based character and was considering a limitation that would require Luck Point (aka a 6 on a Luck Die). What would folks rate this at? -1? -1/2?

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Storm had no powers at the time and was wearing leather bondage gear.  There is no possible explanation for how she got through this with no damage whatsoever and everyone behind her was harmed.  None.  It was a perfect example of "well if she gets hit she probably dies so nothing hits her" logic that happens in comic books all the time.  which was the point of this entire post: it doesn't always work in the game the way it does in comics.

Good point. I'd forgotten about her lack of power at the time. Mind you, this is the same Storm that beat Cyclops in and one-on-one fight in Uncanny X-Men #201. This fight displays that she has a pretty high DCV and some serious Dodge skills. Just more evidence that Riptide's roll wasn't high enough to tag her. 

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Half the X-Men have no business being in a fight, even with armored costumes.  Cyclops has ZERO defenses, except against his and his brother's attacks.  My favorite example of this is Storm, who again has no defenses but environmental ones, and yet is at the forefront of massive attacks.  There's a panel in the "fall of the mutants" series where she's standing up front and center as this lame character spins and throws knives everywhere.  Knives so deadly that they hurt Colossus so badly that he's in the hospital for weeks.  She's standing in front of Colossus with her arms up as if she can protect her face and none of the blades hit her.

 

A lot of what happens in the comics, doesn't work in a game.  Tactics would be completely different; certain glass cannon builds (Cyclops most prominently) would never make it through the first adventure.  The thing we're trying to simulate here is not perfect adherence to comic book stories, but to simulate the feel and sense of the comics.  To make it feel like you're in a comic playing things out the way you would, with your character.

I would have to disagree with some of this, Christopher. Between the info I've read through handbooks, gamebooks, and the comics themselves, most of the X-Men costumes have some armor quality to them (as well as some environmental proofing). Additionally, they're all trained in a variety of physical skills such as hand-to-hand and dance. I would imagine, this would give them some form of additional DCV, whether bought naturally or as some kind of ability. 

In the example with Storm, I believe you're talking about about the Marauder known as Riptide, who spins and fires deadly, razor-sharp shuriken as an auto-fire attack. In game terms, the scene you're referring to really demonstrates the peaks and valleys of rolling to hit and/or damage. In Storm's case, she could've had a "Wind Shield" up that protected her, or her DCV was high enough to be missed. Colossus, on the other hand, was an easier target due to his size and mental state at the time (aka, the GM tripped a Complication and said he was at 1/2 DCV). The GM then rolled rather high in the RKA that Riptide used, sinking his shuriken deep in Colossus, but not enough to stop the hero from snapping Riptide's neck. 

On 3/8/2023 at 11:31 AM, batguy said:

You make a good point.I hope dc comics pairs with a small game publisher and does a deluxe hard cover anniversary edition updating the characters and such.

At this point, it'd be a smarter move for them to update and release such an item themselves. They've already reproduced the two Watchmen books as you mentioned, plus some info from the Doom Patrol Moonshot module in one of the Doom Patrol omnis. I could only imagine that they own enough of the rights to either reprint, or create a new edition in-house. 

Honestly, my personal wishlist has some licensed superhero games released powered by the Hero System. I know it's unlikely to happen, but I'd still like to see it.

On 3/2/2023 at 7:33 PM, batguy said:

Since DC Comics reprinted both dc heroes 1st edition rpg watchmen adventure modules,and the dc heroes 2nd edition wacthmen sourcebook in the watchmen compainion collected edition,

Will dc comics ever do a fourth edition of the DC Heroes role-playing game?

In many ways, DC Adventures, which uses Mutants & Masterminds 3e, is kind of a successor to DC Heroes. The jump to 3e brought familiar terms that DCH fans would recognize, as well as bringing in Ray Winninger, who was a co-designer for DCH. Personally, I think this is the closest we'll get for now unless the Marvel 616 game explodes on the scene.  

On page 55 of Champions Complete under Damage Negation, it says...
 

"If applied to attacks of a specific Special Effect, it works regardless of how the attacks are built, but it only works against attacks of that Special Effect, and it gets no Limitation for this."

However, on page 11 of Champions Powers, under Acid Proof, we get this build...

"Variant Acid-Proof: Change to: Damage Negation (-8 DCs Energy) (40 Active Points); Only Works Against Acid (-1). Total cost: 20 points."

Which is correct? Doe Damage Negation not get a Limitations? 

On 2/20/2023 at 10:56 PM, Scott Ruggels said:

 

I am also amazed at how many of you losers don’t buy your powers to Zero END. 😁 power armor FTW! 

I always used END Battery for power armor. 

6 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Stunts?

Yup. A use of the Power skill to perform a power stunt or trick.   

Quote

Champions Complete (pg. 33) 

Under Power (varies) skill...

 

"When used for power “tricks,” it’s up to the GM exactly what it can allow. Factors to consider include how closely related the stunt is to the original power, how difficult the stunt is, how much the character makes the Power Skill roll by, and so on. Example stunts might include a super-strong character using his Brick Tricks Power Skill to etch a message into steel without breaking it, or squeezing a lump of coal so hard it turns into a diamond.
Power isn’t intended as a cheap substitute for Variable Power Pool, and the Core Concept of You Get What You Pay For (page 7) remains in effect. Using Power to perform a stunt once (or possibly even a handful of times) is acceptable, but if the stunt becomes something the character does regularly, he should pay CP for it."

On 2/20/2023 at 3:54 AM, Doc Democracy said:

 

I'm not so certain we run hugely different types of games.  I appreciate detail, all I am talking about is how that detail gets accounted for in the game.

 

So, say I gave players 350 points to build their characters and tell them that they can have two keywords each for skills (for free).

 

Each of those keywords contains the skills they need to "live" that keyword, like an extra two sets of everyman skills.

 

Batman takes Playboy and Detective.  Each of these come in at 11 or less. I am happy, on their character sheet to put as many skills as we agree fit underneath that keyword heading, skills that EveryPlayboy and EveryDetective "could" have.

 

I would allow them to individually raise skills within that for +1 per point spent.  I would allow 8 point skill levels for specific use in keywords and, if 10 skills are raised by 1 point, the whole keyword goes up by one.

 

I would also encourage the use of non-standard skills (not in the book) like "Make impressive entrance" to allow this to give colour and to add things on the fly, if we agree they fitted within the concept of the keyword.

 

I don't think this constrains a rich description of what the character can do.  I can see some players sticking with the two keywords, a few skill levels and possibly adding in a few free-standing skills that are obviously outside the keywords. I can see others wanting to list a vast number of sub-skills that both define and characterise the kind of Playboy, or Detective, their character is.

 

It means there is flexibility within the system for those that want it, and detail available without exorbitant cost.

 

Doc

Like I said, we play different styles of games. This isn't far from something like Fate, which is a great system on its own. Unfortunately it's not the right fit for me or my group. I enjoy the complexity a bit. 

On 2/20/2023 at 10:12 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

This comes back to Duke's point, really.  How will those skills be used in-game?  The Supers examples of Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Reed Richards, Bruce Banner, toss in Peter Parker illustrate this.  What was their actual specialty, drawn from what they did in the comics, not from what got retconned in later?

 

I suppose Tony Stark was more an engineer, in fairness.  He didn't seem to do much "pure science". Bruce Banner did not get a lot of opportunities to use his science skills, and when he did it tended to be weapons-related, if not fully GammaRay specific.

 

Reed Richards built incredible whatsits to aid the FF, and we know he was a rocket scientist since the FF got their powers using his rockets.  But he had pretty much any science skill needed by the story, right down to developing a serum to allow people to breathe underwater (and even to allow the Human Torch to use his flame powers).

 

Hank Pym was later "a biochemist" but whenever the Avengers needed a science solution, he'd generally provide it if we was on the team.  Stark would build things, though.

 

Peter Parker was able to check his own blood for radioactivity, build those webshooters and the adhesives they use, design a device that suppressed the Vulture's flight, modify his webbing to incorporate acids so strong they fused two of Dr. Octopus' tentacles (without damaging those web shooters) and prepare a serum to cure the Lizard.  And we're not up to Spider-Man #6 yet, are we?  All this on a budget that made rent and groceries hard to afford, and before even graduating high school.

 

If it's actually going to matter whether the characters are engineers, researchers or inventors; whether they know physics, chemistry or biology; whether that's astrophysics, quantum physics or geophysics; pharmacology, biochemistry or organic chemistry; botany, zoology or microbiology; then let's break the skills down. 

 

But that really presupposes a game so science-based that most or all characters will have skills in some branch of science.  Similarly, if the game will focus on medicine, go beyond simple "Medicine" as a skill, and if it will feature courtroom drama, KS: Law may no longer cut it.

 

But if we have a team of, say, Hank Pym (Scientist), Thor (Dr. Don Blake, MD), Daredevil (Lawyer) - why are their "one to a character" jobs so compelling that they need to spend significant points to flesh them out in minute detail?

 

In the Bat-Family example, everyone is a crimefighter, a normal human and an investigator.  One skill encompassing that will make everyone identical, rather than making a single criminologist/investigator unique and different from the other PCs.  Now we need multiple skills.

 

That's where the guidance Duke is suggesting is needed - GM, tailor the depths of skills and subskills to your game.  Maybe that means taking a skill we'd often assume is "one size fits all" (like Survival) and instead require another point invested for each sub-skill (6e Survival).

Sure. I get the need for guidance, but I'd rather have the choices in skills over the older editions of Champions/Hero. I dig the complexity and build possibilities. The examples above I think drive that home a bit. How did they use their respective science skills "in game"? Pym created Ultron and has tweaked his powers over time. Stark has tweaked armor in the field (stunts) and has kit-based items. Richards... well, he uses his skills in every other issue of Fantastic Four. Banner has created ways to suppress the Hulk and other creatures and has also worked other jobs needing such skills. And Parker... I would dare say some of his science skills are utilized to defeat specific foes, or to stunt certain powers (like his web shooters). 

I've played with broad skill systems in the past, and, while they serve a purpose in certain games, I prefer the narrow system that Hero has. I have no problems adjucating the rules as needed with my games, but your mileage may vary. 

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

. I believe that's where a character can shine the most. I'm not saying that anyone is wrong, but rather it's not for me (especially after running broad skill systems for so long).

 

 

I don't believe anyone is wrong about the skill system, either.  It isn't complete enough to screw it up. 

 

But out of curiosity, what is your general rule of thumb for "narrow enough?". Even collecting fingerprints hs multiple steps, each with different actions and different supplies.  Is this a PS or a KS, or is it something you have decided requires both? 

 

To be absolutely clear:

 

I  not picking on you nor am I saying that you aren't going narrow enough.  I am just making the point that every one of us has a stopping point on specificity, and that ultimately, it is completely arbitrary, and likely to vary not just from GM to GM, but from skill to skill. 

 

We can tout it as brilliant and innovative, or we can accept that it is a level of broken that we are okay with, but realistically, the only changes I would like to see is some official in-the-rules guidance, even it did the ol' "and here are eleven options" thing that has come to characterize the current edition. 

 

First, I apologize. I meant broad not narrow and have made that correction here (and in the original post). 

Collecting Fingerprints? I would use Criminology. If someone had a PS: Criminologist (or a useful KS), I might allow a synergy bonus of some kind. 

Oh, I agree that we all run things differently. You see that from group to group, sometimes even under the same GM. In that spirit, I don't see the skill system as overly flawed. Could it be better? I guess you'd have to ask each person. Personally, I preferred 4th ed overall, but I don't mind 6th (or 5th) either. Heck, I REALLY tried to like C:NM.

On 2/16/2023 at 11:51 PM, Scott Ruggels said:

Ahh the Late Steve Goodman. He was a regular at Hero games and was famous for rules hacks. He played more Fantasy Hero than Champions, but he was a member of The Guardians. Very chill guy and a font of information. I’ll raise a shot glass of Glenlivet in his memory. 

Slightly OT (and probably answered previously), but what was Steve Goodman's character in The Guardians?