greypaladin_01

It's an interesting idea. Skills could be easy enough to implement in as an adder to the effects. You may want to use a Difficulty system, like needing 6 successes (aka BODY) to achieve a moderate action. Skills could add to this, or even add more dice into the check. So if you have a INT 15, rolling 3d6 for the roll, but also have Deduction 3, this may add 3 more dice in, rolling 6d6 when making Deduction checks. 

The way I see it is Perception would be treated as an Everyman skills.  So everyone gets it at the equivalent of the 8- for free, then if you purchase it goes up to 11- and then increased from there.   

 
 
 
Thank you both!   I am taking the feed back from here and putting it and my other thoughts into some rough drafts for now.   Hopefully I'll have the early draft for review up sometime soon.

Interesting! What would the roll be for someone who didn't purchase the Skill?
 
 
 
I look forward to seeing your completed system! I've tinkered with changes to the mechanics over the years, but so far I haven't come up with anything worth adopting.

Oh, I certainly went off the rails a bit there, and I agree you don't need to take things as far as that! That was mostly me spitballing ideas because I wanted to see how they turned out, and if anything would turn out useful to anyone that'd be an extra bonus. Your changes do sound interesting, though, so if you get anything pulled together I'd love to read them.

In the late 80s and early 90s, the Hong Kong film renaissance occurred with John Woo, Ringo Lam, Chow Yun Fat, and the like. Both contemporary, as well as period films were produced but with higher budgets than the Sir Run Run Shaw produced films of the 70s. The films would headline the Toronto Film Festival and from there spread to art houses all over North America. These films were a major source of entertainment at Hero Games, and a heavy influence upon Aaron Alston, and his gaming group. Ninja Hero was the product of that era, and his system, playtest Ed by his Dallas TX crew. Slid into main hero by 4th Edition.  

And while STR is often checking BODY for damage in the case of combat.  It is also used in the Roll BODY format when seeing if someone has escaped from a Grab.   As mentioned above, this makes for a more involved and interactive moment in play, as well as giving a more visible difference when having characters with different STR facing off.   

Other than STR contests for Grabs and DEX contests for initiative, I am trying to think of any other contested Core Stat use in the game.   PRE attacks have their own system which for gameplay speed will probably be left the same... it would be FAR too slow for each defender of a PRE attack have to roll their own opposed checks for resisting.   Can anyone else think of contested Stat use in HERO?
 
yes something much like this is what I was thinking.  Both to help make the contests more engaging for players, but also to help make Trained Skills (and skill contests) FEEL different from general Opposed Statistic checks.

 

I started in 4th Edition, so this earlier version of Martial Arts is just strange to me.  However for a 4color style game it actually seems to go smoother than the detail of the Ninja Hero style we have with 4th and beyond.

I started in 4th Edition, so this earlier version of Martial Arts is just strange to me.  However for a 4color style game it actually seems to go smoother than the detail of the Ninja Hero style we have with 4th and beyond.

Oh, I'd HATE!!! doing this in skill vs. skill contests.  First, what trained skills end up resulting in a skill contest?  Not many, and not often.  Take a case where A has concealed something, and B is searching for it.  This is not a skill contest as I think of it, but the rules do.  You roll A's Concealment, and use that as a modifier on B's roll.  See 6E1 57.
 
That actually brings up that modifiers are based on standard skill rolls, not on some funky BODY-based manipulations.  Plus, now you're introducing another factor...oh, is this a standard skill check, or a funky one where BODY's in play?  Strikes me that you're doing the exact opposite of simplifying/streamlining.  
 
If you want the contest to run 2-3 rounds, fine.  Make it an extended contest.  First to get +5 total advantage.  A makes roll by 2, B fails roll by 2...A's at +4.  Next roll, A makes by 1, B makes by 3.  A's at +2.  And so on.  This has a more dynamic feel to me anyway.
 
But these are very rare.  The most common would probably be grapple vs. escape...and that's counting BODY anyway.  IF you're using cyber combat, ok, Comp Programming vs. Comp Programming...in Matrix combat, very definitely contested checks.  Be careful here tho:  this commonly involves only one player.  From time to time, sure, it's cool, but it can *easily* be overused and become stale and boring.  

If it's all right to go a little off-topic, I'm interested by that mention of eliminating characteristic rolls, greypaladin_01, assuming you didn't just mean in the context of contests. If you want to strive for consistency in resolution mechanics, which I think is definitely a laudable goal (if not one HERO is necessarily concerned with as-written), then using the 'roll and count BODY' method for uncontested rolls would make sense.
 
I haven't gone through this thoroughly, so I'm just playing around here, but a target number-based system seems obvious. Roll as if the characteristic were STR, add up the BODY, and compare to a number based on the difficulty of the task. You could match the difficulty to the number of dice rolled by someone of the equivalent skill, so average difficulty would be 2+, as someone with an average characteristic of 10 would roll 2d6. This would let you benchmark higher or lower difficulties fairly quickly in-game, as you'd just have to imagine the rough level of character you'd see taking on each task.
 
You could even keep modifiers to the roll in for circumstances that affect performance by adding or subtracting dice. Although, thinking about it, it might be more elegant to work everything off the difficulty number, so you only have one axis to keep track of. It's a personal preference thing, like so much of this, I guess.
 
The main thing to watch out for would be RSR and Power rolls. The HERO skill system is fairly loose so you can tinker with it without too much trouble, but there's a lot more going on with the powers side of things, so you might need to keep an eye out for how changes to skill rolls affect powers that depend on them. Like I said, I haven't had a proper look at this, but crunching some quick numbers for 60 AP powers (so a -6 with the baseline rules) seems to indicate that a difficulty of 2 + 1 per 10 Active Points should get you similar results. But don't hold me to that!
 
Sorry if this isn't what you had in mind for your post, but it was an interesting idea to me (even if I don't use it in my own games), so thank you for giving me the chance to play around in this space.

While greater height can mean greater strength that is not always the case.  I am a lot taller than my brother in-law, but he does a lot more physical work than me.   When we moved to a new hose he was able to move stuff a lot easier than I could.  If you think just because you are taller you are stronger than someone who engages in hard physical labor you are mistaken.  Historically the average height has gone up because of better nutrition and medical care, but that does not translate into stronger people.  Obesity has also dramatically increased from the past.   The average modern man is probably weaker than the average man in the past.  The modern athlete on the other hand is probably a lot stronger than those in the past.  

IIRC 4th ed had rules for weapon reach; the short weapon had -1 OCV until it scored a hit, and then the long weapon had the -1 OCV until its wielder backed up.  Something like that.  Idk if it's in later editions.

Part of my current side project is reading through older editions of HERO and reworking things to be easier for my newer generation players to understand.   In doing so I am refreshing my own memory on how HERO works... and one thing I noticed is there are SO many different systems for how different Statistics Checks work.   I am thinking over changing/streamlining some and would like to pick everyone's brains.  

There are 4 types of checks that I can find in the HERO system when dealing with Statistic oriented checks:
 
1 - Skill Rolls:  Not something I am dealing with in this post.
2- Characteristic Rolls: non-skill checks that resolve with skill like check using raw stats.   Examples:  DEX compared rolls for Initiative Ties, EGO rolls for Psych Lims or Shaking Mind Control
3 - Mental Stat Related Rolls:  Things like Mental Powers or PRE Attacks.  Resolved by rolling d6s and adding up the full total of dice and then comparing them to targets relavent stat for success level
4 - STR contests:  Such as Grab contests or Casual STR, Resolved by rolling d6s and only adding up the BODY pips then comparing for results.
 
There might be others that I have not come across again but it seems like alot of systems for teaching.   My GF even commented on it during a solo game about why STR has a roll for some things but Dice Contest for another.
 
Solutions/Discussions:   While there is a { if not broke, don't fix it} attitude that could be taken.  I feel that there is room here for tweaks that would reduce at least some of the systems for learning the game.   I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this matter but I have this half-baked idea so far that I am working on.
 
Characteristic Rolls:  I would like to remove these completely and replace with something similar to the STR contest system of BODY pip comparisons.    This would also help bring up this system beyond just damage.  I like games that have repeated systems, it helps to reinforce things for players.   At first I considered trying to work up something where it is adding the dice like how Mental Powers or PRE attacks work, but that feels like it would lead to TOO much variation even between matching dice.
 
Any thoughts on a system like this being implemented?   Other than being "different" can anyone spot any flaws with using this system to resolve Characteristic Contests?
 
 

It's like on the Discworld -- there are about 37 different thunder gods, and Blind Io is all of them. He accomplishes this by several different hammers and a collection of false noses.

True, the standard deviation is 1. But that doesn’t tell the whole story.
 
Two characters with the same Strength - Alice and Bob both with a strength of 15 - will have a 28% chance of a tie (each Phase) during an arm wrestling contest if they compare the Body on 3d6.
That’s much better than the 9% chance of a tie each Phase rolling 3d6 comparing Characteristic rolls.
 
And if we use the convention that it takes two standard deviations for a significant result, then Alice would have to win by two Body in order to pin Bob. Needing to win by 2 and counting Body on 3d6 means a tie 72% of the time each Phase.

Now we get to see two characters - with identical Strength - struggle and sweat for two or three Phases before one of them yells out in pain and frustration!
 

I’ve started sneaking in “count the BODY” rolls in place of characteristic vs. characteristic rolls. There are noticeably more ties. Which leads to a lot more theatrical, nose to nose, sweat rolling down the face, never back down, confrontations. By the time we get to the third tie-breaker roll everyone is cheering on their teammate.

No, it came originally from Fantasy Hero, then was picked up in Champions III.  You had drain, which was recovery/turn and destroy which was recovery/month.  They didn't come up with the modifiers to change the delay between recovery until 4th edition, which negated destruction as a power.

Aaron Allston's Strike Force, available in the Hero Games store, includes updated versions of the characters (if you want a comparison).

Part of my current side project is reading through older editions of HERO and reworking things to be easier for my newer generation players to understand.   In doing so I am refreshing my own memory on how HERO works... and one thing I noticed is there are SO many different systems for how different Statistics Checks work.   I am thinking over changing/streamlining some and would like to pick everyone's brains.  

There are 4 types of checks that I can find in the HERO system when dealing with Statistic oriented checks:
 
1 - Skill Rolls:  Not something I am dealing with in this post.
2- Characteristic Rolls: non-skill checks that resolve with skill like check using raw stats.   Examples:  DEX compared rolls for Initiative Ties, EGO rolls for Psych Lims or Shaking Mind Control
3 - Mental Stat Related Rolls:  Things like Mental Powers or PRE Attacks.  Resolved by rolling d6s and adding up the full total of dice and then comparing them to targets relavent stat for success level
4 - STR contests:  Such as Grab contests or Casual STR, Resolved by rolling d6s and only adding up the BODY pips then comparing for results.
 
There might be others that I have not come across again but it seems like alot of systems for teaching.   My GF even commented on it during a solo game about why STR has a roll for some things but Dice Contest for another.
 
Solutions/Discussions:   While there is a { if not broke, don't fix it} attitude that could be taken.  I feel that there is room here for tweaks that would reduce at least some of the systems for learning the game.   I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this matter but I have this half-baked idea so far that I am working on.
 
Characteristic Rolls:  I would like to remove these completely and replace with something similar to the STR contest system of BODY pip comparisons.    This would also help bring up this system beyond just damage.  I like games that have repeated systems, it helps to reinforce things for players.   At first I considered trying to work up something where it is adding the dice like how Mental Powers or PRE attacks work, but that feels like it would lead to TOO much variation even between matching dice.
 
Any thoughts on a system like this being implemented?   Other than being "different" can anyone spot any flaws with using this system to resolve Characteristic Contests?
 
 

That sounds like an easy way to handle it, assuming you are using the standard Fantasy Hero rules. 

So the equivalent of "Turn Resistance" from  later editions of D&D would just be something like  +10 PRE, only to resist Turn Undead PRE Attacks?

- Mental Paralysis:  my guess is this would be a Based on EGO version of Entangle?
 
That is the build now, yes.  Basically that's what it was, without the modifiers listed.
 
- Healing:  simple healing from 5e? 
 
Healing was for 10 points you heal body and stun like a normal attack deals body and stun
 
- Destruction:  my guess is some form of long term Drain?
 
Yeah it was a drain that healed like Body damage: REC/month.  Cost 15 points per d6

I think you just describe all of Hero System with that  😁

Many "undead" in Hero System publications have been built using the Automaton rules -- skeletons, zombies, mummies, and the like. Automatons as their default ignore mind-affecting abilities like Mental Powers or Presence Attacks, since they lack consciousness and free will, i.e. "minds" in the conventional sense.
 
This Complication means that Presence Attacks which are defined as some form of Necromancy (spell or innate magical power) will affect undead Automatons, substituting the Automaton's Intelligence score for Ego since they lack an Ego score. What counts as Necromancy in a given campaign is up to the campaign's Game Master to decide, although it usually includes magic spells defined as affecting undead.
 
You may notice that published Hero Games robotic Automatons have a comparable Complication, "Affected by Cyberkinesis," which is the technological analogue to Necromancy for that purpose.

As a GM I would never allow someone to buy STR only for damage, just out of the box.  Because its cheesing the rules.  It should be a general prohibition in the rules, in fact, it basically is: there's a power in place already to increase melee damage in the rules.
 
In any case, what's the limitation on STR, only does damage?  Hint: it would be cheaper than buying HTA.  If you just buy flat out STR, then you get into concept damage.  I'm a regular guy that punches really hard... and can lift a bus.