Spears

[Ninja-Bear]

I’ve just noticed something about spears. In FHC (and probably most Fantasy Hero stuff) a Short Spear is listed as a 2 handed weapon which is fine. However I play other games where the spear can used one handed albeit with lower damage. Again that’s fine. The issue I have is a spear having a STR Min of 12 (at least in FHC) that seems awfully high.  So should I change the spear to a 11/2 handed weapon and or lower the STR Min. ?

[GDShore]

There is at least one spear intended as a 1 handed weapon. The Zulu Asagai. The weapon is intended for stabbing, thrusting, and slashing as well most  have a spherical weight at the base of the weapon which when flipped around can be used as a mace. The blade is a broad leaf shape, that is one third the length overall on a weapon that is usually 1.25 to 1.5 meters long. The users of this weapon were big strong chaps, so a requirement of strength 12 is probably valid. In a confined space might even be a more flexible and functional weapon than a sword, ahorse not so much. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

A lot of armies used one handed spears and shields, but yeah 12 STR is absurd.  Most of the STR Mins on weapons listed are a bit high in a world where the average person has 8 STR.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, GDShore said:

In a confined space might even be a more flexible and functional weapon than a sword, ahorse not so much. 

 

 

Agreed!  In a confined space, a horse is a terrible melee weapon.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

So a STR Min of 8 or 10 then? Btw I’m not against reducing the DC of the spear one handed bit rather I don’t want to mess with the -1 OCV.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Ninja-Bear

[GDShore]

 First, a str. min of 10 is probably best, warriors are not average humans. Second, the Duke is right, in a confined space a horse is a horrible melee weapon, almost as bad as an Asagai is from horse back. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

One way to envision STR MIN is not "how much strength it takes to wield" but instead "how much strength it takes to add extra damage."  In other words, this is the break point at which you can start to deal more damage with this weapon than it does in normal use.  So to properly simulate this, you should look 5 STR ahead of the weapon's STR MIN and work back to what the base damage should require.  Or again, to put it another way, how much strength does a character require to do the base damage with this weapon?  At what point do they start doing decreasing damage?

 

So with a Spear, how much STR should it take to add one damage class of physical killing damage?  How mighty a warrior do you have to be to start inflicting increasing damage?  Is it 17, as the base suggested STR?  Is it 15?  What strength causes base damage with the weapon, does it have to be a strong, athletic person or an average person?  That's how I try to work things out.

[Old Man]

Game balance is also a concern, unless you want to make sure you're penalizing players who write up non-spearmen.  5e's weapon chart was especially egregious in this regard--Str Min 10 for a 1.5d6K 1h or 2h throwable weapon.  It matters in fantasy games that prominently feature melee combat.

[archer]

Historically, peasants were compelled to be in mostly unorganized militias to fight for whichever lord's land the peasant happened to live upon.

 

And the peasants used whichever farm implements they had as weapons: scythe, pitchfork, etc.

 

I don't know who here has actually swung a scythe but it's significantly heavier than a spear. And peasants routinely swung a scythe from sun-up to sundown when harvesting their grain.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe

 

So my personal feeling is that STR minimums are fairly wrong in FH, that the STR stat is unrealistically low for normal people, or that peasants weren't normal people. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Laborers would probably have a higher STR, probably CON, and PD than average.  But lower INT and EGO, probably lower PRE as well.

[LoneWolf]

My copy of Fantasy Hero 6th edition shows both the short and medium spear as being one handed weapons that can be thrown.  The short spear has a STR min of 10 and a medium has a 12 STR min.  The Long spear is a two-handed weapon with a STR min of 14.  

 

The average STR in a Fantasy Hero game is probably going to be higher than 8.  In a world where hard physical labor is more common the average STR will probably be higher.  The 8 STR is more for a modern world where we have devices that does not require a great deal of STR.  Driving a car with power steering does not require much muscle, but working on a farm without mechanical devices requires quite a bit of muscle power.   
 

[assault]

One of the classic cases is the Ancient Greek Hoplite. Most had some degree of training, although the amount of that could vary from Spartan to almost none.

 

Hoplite spears seem to have been longer and heavier than those used by most of the infantry used by the Persian Empire. Many of the latter used bows instead, of course, but there were plenty of spearmen.

[Ninja-Bear]

8 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

My copy of Fantasy Hero 6th edition shows both the short and medium spear as being one handed weapons that can be thrown.  The short spear has a STR min of 10 and a medium has a 12 STR min.  The Long spear is a two-handed weapon with a STR min of 14.  

 

The average STR in a Fantasy Hero game is probably going to be higher than 8.  In a world where hard physical labor is more common the average STR will probably be higher.  The 8 STR is more for a modern world where we have devices that does not require a great deal of STR.  Driving a car with power steering does not require much muscle, but working on a farm without mechanical devices requires quite a bit of muscle power.   
 

Now that’s a book I don’t have. Thanks!

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The average STR in a Fantasy Hero game is probably going to be higher than 8. 

 

Probably so, although the priest and the monk and the scribe etc won't be burly.

[Scott Ruggels]

Who says characteristics are 8 across the board? I always assumed 10 aqcross the board since 1981, and I disregard 6e, because I don't use it. I do like Christopher R. Taylor's use of STR mins to be able to apply extra DC's with. That's a rather elegant solution. I have seen a lot of 6 foot _ spears being used with round shields, one handed (and thn two handed, as the fighting was quite dynamic).  
 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Scott Ruggels

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Who says characteristics are 8 across the board?

 

Its an extrapolation from STR.  The average person can press about 125 pounds without strength training, and slightly more with maximum effort, which is around 8 STR.  Its not perfect for all the primary stats, but that's the only one we have a measurable standard for.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Scott Ruggels]

16 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Its an extrapolation from STR.  The average person can press about 125 pounds without strength training, and slightly more with maximum effort, which is around 8 STR.  Its not perfect for all the primary stats, but that's the only one we have a measurable standard for.

Interesting, but that is WITHOUT Strength training.  Soldiers go through Basic Training, and continue with morning Physical training.  Peasants use scythes. Laborers lift bales of hay.  About the only folks with less strength you would see, would be the clergy, and the Middle class in the mediaeval  context. Even in the modern context, soldiers have to perform their evolutions with an extra 80lbs or so on their backs. M<y assumption for player characters is someone who is "dangerworthy", which usually meqans a fit character who has completed some training, therefore 10s across the board, RAW (3rd -4thedition).  Do not apply to me with consumptive scholars who could be hors de combat by a house cat.

[Christopher R Taylor]

 

Quote

Soldiers go through Basic Training, and continue with morning Physical training.  Peasants use scythes. Laborers lift bales of hay. 

 

I agree, in an older historical setting the average is probably higher for some stats (and possibly lower in others).

[Christougher]

On 4/27/2023 at 9:34 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

So a STR Min of 8 or 10 then? Btw I’m not against reducing the DC of the spear one handed bit rather I don’t want to mess with the -1 OCV.

 

Why exactly is a spear -1 OCV?   In hand to hand they're literally point and shoot.

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Christougher said:

 

Why exactly is a spear -1 OCV?   In hand to hand they're literally point and shoot.

 

Because the pointing part is hard.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Why exactly is a spear -1 OCV?   In hand to hand they're literally point and shoot.

 

Yeah they are pretty easy to use.  I think the theory is that your warhead, the damaging part, is small and at a distance from you but I don't buy that they're so unwieldy and difficult to use that they take a penalty.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Duke Bushido]

20 hours ago, archer said:

 

I don't know who here has actually swung a scythe

 

 

 

Yo!

 

And yes; it's heavier.  However, it's also balanced, and isn't swung at all like a sword or a staff.  The reach- if you are using it as a weapon and not a harvesrinf implement- really isn't much; you would have more range thrusting a sword.  It needs a sweeping / twisting motion to work, but as a person who has only ever goofed around with a sword, I can say comfortably that I could (and have) use a scythe for a couple of hours between water breaks.   I feel pretty sure i's be done swinging a sword in ten or fifteen minutes.

 

As always, YMMV.

 

 

 

20 hours ago, archer said:

So my personal feeling is that STR minimums are fairly wrong in FH,

 

I suspect this is a problem,in most games, really.  As a general rule, people who swung scythe and swords and hoisted halberds and pikes didnt know enough math to begin writing a game. 

 

I suspect ir is similar to the conversation GM Joe and I had in his HRRI 2e thread: kmthe more you know about something, the more you realize there isn't a way to reduce it to a simple chart and a die roll with anything remotely resembling real world accuracy.  STR Min is as good a system as any other given that any gameable version will always be laughably inavcurate against reality.

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Who says characteristics are 8 across the board? I always assumed 10 aqcross the board since 1981, and I disregard 6e, because I don't use it.

 

 

Ditto on all counts, but particularly the 10s.  Someone has extrapolated 8 from the STR chart; fair enough.  My own extrapolation is "this is a points-based system.  If the designers hd wanted 8s, tou'd have to pay points to get 10s."

 

6e _kind of_ resolves this by starting with straight zeroes and requiring you to pay for everything, but accirding to the chart, even a zero STR has utility, so maybe it just penalizes all the other characterisitics, seeing as how a zero Stun means you aren't conscious and a zero SPD means you can't move.

 

I suspect the STR chart and its geometric progression was built usinf "nice round numbers" where "round" meant easily multiplies in the head."  Certainly that hinky break to tons and the later break from odd-ish tons to thousand tons supports the idea.

 

And to a lesser extent, I agree on ignoring 6e.  It "solves" problems I never actually had, so I don't use it, either.  Honestly, it'a hyper-specificity on modifier-by-modifier interaction with other modifiers blatantly creates problems if I try to integrate it into what we have been doing since  Day One, but that is not a 6e-exclusive problem.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I do like Christopher R. Taylor's use of STR mins to be able to apply extra DC's with. That's a rather elegant solution.

 

My turn to have a question! 

 

what he wrote here was clean and simple, but is that not how STR Min works?  Have I been doing it wrong all this while?

 

(Either way, I am going to continue to do it this way, but I would like to know what I missed in the actual rules)

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Interesting, but that is WITHOUT Strength training.  Soldiers go through Basic Training, and continue with morning Physical training.  Peasants use scythes. Laborers lift bales of hay.  About the only folks with less strength you would see, would be the clergy, and the Middle class in the mediaeval  context.

 

I am reminded of the first written comments by europeans about indigenous Americans:  -"looking more resplendent in Adam's finery than we in all our clothes."  These people largely used only the simplest of tools.  They were well-muscled and lean.

 

Even though we paint them as underfed and sickly, it's still a fair bet that the typical midevial peasant was quite strong, and tougher than a Huddle House steak.

 

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

M<y assumption for player characters is someone who is "dangerworthy", which usually meqans a fit character who has completed some training, therefore 10s across the board,

 

Ditto.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

RAW (3rd -4thedition). 

 

1sr-4th, Sir.   

 

 

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Do not apply to me with consumptive scholars who could be hors de combat by a house cat.

 

And I will strike a gentlemen's agreement with you here over a slight disagreement:

 

Feel free to bring me such a character.  Just play him in such a way that he doesn't grab a two-handed hammer and charge into battle.

 

 

 

 

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

And yes; it's heavier.  However, it's also balanced, and isn't swung at all like a sword or a staff.  The reach- if you are using it as a weapon and not a harvesrinf implement- really isn't much; you would have more range thrusting a sword.  It needs a sweeping / twisting motion to work, but as a person who has only ever goofed around with a sword, I can say comfortably that I could (and have) use a scythe for a couple of hours between water breaks.   I feel pretty sure i's be done swinging a sword in ten or fifteen minutes.

 

Based on my own hours of experience with scythes, I can't imagine trying to swing a scythe at someone who is trying not to be hit and actually connecting.  What would actually happen is I'd wind up, and the bad guy would casually step forward and kill me two or three times before the scythe got more than halfway around.

 

Spears are much wieldier than scythes, but still not nearly as handy as a sword or axe.  The place for long 1h spears (and most polearms) is in massed combat where your target can't trivially sidestep, or where your target is a crowd, and where reach is extremely useful.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

what he wrote here was clean and simple, but is that not how STR Min works?  Have I been doing it wrong all this while?

 

Maybe, but I think most people were basing the STR MIN on what it took to use the weapon comfortably.  For me, looking at it from the perspective of "how much more STR does it take to do more damage" gives you a different perspective.  Instead of "eh, I guess an average STR of x" you look at it as "what STR exactly does it take to do more damage with this weapon?" then work back from that.

 

Quote

Even though we paint them as underfed and sickly, it's still a fair bet that the typical midevial peasant was quite strong, and tougher than a Huddle House steak.

 

While I agree, I think we have to offset that buy how the average man today is a good 6" taller and much better fed and cared for medically.  How much, I dunno, but it is going to be a factor.