Uncle Shecky

That's a good point, but PRE also reflects your ability to withstand PRE attacks, so Gracie's PRE couldn't be too low. And if you make the attack a PRE drain, his PRE doesn't matter that much once the guy he's holping is at negative PRE. Of course, all wrestlers could buy extra PRE only to perform or defend against submission holds... I'm not trying to get you to use the PRE attack version, just fleshing it out. I think the EGO roll solution is a good one.

One thing that is complicating this discussion is that the submission hold Knightraven is describing is not meant to do damage, but merely to inflict pain. HERO (and every RPG I've played) doesn't measure pain, it just measures the damage of the attack. HERO adds to the complexity with STUN, BODY, CON stun, and END, but really, pain is something else. I think you can resolve this by deciding what characteristic would govern submission due to pain: CON, PRE, EGO, END, STUN, or a combination of some of those? You could rule that the target of the hold must make the relevant characteristic roll or submit. Then you buy the attack as a Drain against the relevant characteristic, with the limitation "Only for the purpose of reducing characteristic roll." Personally, I think Fur Face was right to suggest a PRE attack: the hold is a grab and Drain vs. PRE, and the request to say "Uncle" is a PRE attack. You could expand on this by giving bonuses for the target's CON, EGO, etc. THE NND approach works well too: the attack is a Grab and NND, but once you reach 0 STUN, you have to make a CON (or PRE or whatever) roll to avoid tapping out (instead of losing more STUN and passing out), like Arthur and Steve said. PRE attack is better, I think, because it already includes the mechanic for making someone take an involuntary action.

Re: Hardened PD/Resistent Defense (I'm not completely sure what you are asking, so I apologize if I'm telling you something you already know. ) For tougher characters, I often buy hardened only for one of the defenses (unless I'm making someone really heavily armored, like Colossus), e.g. for resistant PD but not for normal PD. Usually, I'll buy hardened Armor to protect against the BODY of an AP killing attack. e.g. PD 10; +8 PD Armor, hardened My defense against normal RKA is 8 vs. BODY and 18 vs. STUN. My defense against an AP RKA is 8 vs. BODY and 13 vs. STUN. Hardened normal PD will work against the STUN of an AP killing attack, but it won't help your resistant defense against the BODY or STUN of the AP attack. e.g. PD 10, hardened; +8 PD Armor My defense against normal RKA is 8 vs. BODY and 18 vs. STUN. My defense against an AP RKA is 4 vs. BODY and 14 vs. STUN. (Killer Shrike posted that info from the FAQ while I was writing this: that explains how hardened works with Damage Resistance.) Are you suggesting buying extra armor with a limitation like "only vs. armor piercing attacks"? In theory, you could do that, but the cost would have to be equal to the hardened advantage. e.g.: +8 PD Armor (12 points), hardened (+1/4) = 15 points vs.: +8 PD Armor (12 points); and +4PD Armor (6 points), only vs. armor piercing (-3/4) = 3 points; for a total of 15 points. I just picked the -3/4 value for the limitation so the costs would be equal. The fact that hardened is a +1/4 advantage determines the maximum value you can get for that limitation: the costs must be equal to keep game balance. So you wouldn't want to build it this way really, since hardened already covers this and gives you the same result. Of course, you could simply buy some armor (or DR) with hardened and some without, so you get slightly better defenses against AP attacks, but don't have to pay to completely harden your defenses. Then you can gradualy spend xp to increase the amount of your defense that is hardened.

The PC game "Freedom Force" does a good job of finding the middle ground between the unified source of super powers and the existence of other super-powered beings. Almost all of the heroes get their power from exposure to "Energy X," so there is a unified origin. At first all of the villains are also the result of energy x too. Later, you learn that energy x was introduced to earth by an alien species, so they get thrown into the mix. The super heroes existence begins to draw out other heroes and villains from non-related sources: the future (Time Master), the past (the deity Pan), and present/near-future technology (Mr. Mechanical). Basically, all these energy x empowered beings make their world more interesting to other forces. So the unified origin is the source of power for the characters and the catalyst for the appearance of other supers (so it's sort of a source by proxy), but not the only source of power for supers.

Power Destruction was in Champions III. It was a lot like Drain and Suppress (which was called "Neutralize" in Champions III), but the duration of the effect is different. I'll give you the highlights from the description. "Power Destruction: This power allows the character to attack a specific Characteristic or Power. The attack 'damages' the Power or Characteristic (like a Killing Attack damages BODY points). Power Defense acts against a Power Destruction Attack. "Power Destruction has no range and costs 20 points per 1D6 x the cost multiple of any Characteristic being attacked. Roll the dice; the target subtracts his Power Defense .... The remainder is the number of points of the Power or Characteristic lost. "The target gets the Power Points back at the same rate he gets back BODY pips; either the character's REC/10 in points, or points equal to the character's Regeneration. ..." I liked the fact that the character's REC or Regeneration determined the recovery rate, instead of the power having a defined return rate (like Drain and Suppress). This was an extremely expensive power, although really dangerous even in small doses (it was really effective against END, since each die was only 10 points). When Champions III came out, everyone in our gaming group started buying lots of Power Defense: it became almost as necessary as resistant defenses.

I love perverse ideas like this. WTG Yamo! I would probably do it through a disadvantage, either physical or pyschological limitation. Something like "Impressively incompetent with X, all related skill rolls at -Y." Then, how much you spend on the skills will be determined by just how pathetic you want him to seem. If he's just inept, I'd buy them as 1 point familiarities (or even a half point like mattingly suggested). But if he's studied really hard to be the best damn gardner on the planet, but still kills every plant he looks at, you could spend a ton of points on it. Just let it become a black hole for all of his xp. "Some day ... some day." Obviously, if you really want to play this guy, the first option is better; but as a source of amusement for your fellow players, the second option is pretty cool.

That "Homo Superior" thing started in the X-Men comic. In "Powers" they are called Powers. In "Rising Stars" they're called Specials.

Catacomb might be right, depending on whether the FF sticks around between your action phases (like the effects of a dodge). If it protects that character as long as he does a move-by or move-thru every phase, then -1/4 is probably right. If it only protects him at the instant of impact (so he takes no damage from his own move through), then it would be -1/2 at least.

Yeah, Kinetik, in Champions Universe (p. 80). He's got Force Field with a -1/4 limitation "only when moving." If you want the FF to work only for move-thrus and move-bys (not just when moving, but only for specific actions made when you are moving), that would be at least -1/2 I would think.

Terror Inc. has always been my favorite super villain group, so I was disappointed when I read in CKC that Prof. Muerte was dead. I decided to change that right away too. It seems to me that Steve intentionally left some room in the story for that development (especially Feur dumping his body in the ocean). There are tons of good suggestions on how to bring him back above, but one of altamaros's ideas is closest to my own: Muerte isn't dead; it's just an elaborate plot. Muerte has always been hunted by EUROSTAR, so he developed this plan to destroy them from the inside. My idea was that Feur and Scorpia were in on it, although they might need some kind of hypnosis (Mental Defense, only vs. telepathy) to allow them to hide their duplicity from Mentalla. And Giganto? What's he been up to? His disappearance should be tied into the plot as well, though I haven't figured that out yet. It could simply be that Muerte is in hiding and keeping Giganto with him for protection, but I'd like something more devious. As far as I'm concerned, any way you bring back Muerte is a good one.

I had a really lame villain idea just a couple of days ago (haven't had time to write him up yet): BLUNDERBUSS: a power-armor villain with a blunderbuss and pilgrim theme. He's a descendant of one of the Mayflower colonists, driven to villainy by the "commercialization" of Thanksgiving. One arm of his powered suit has a flared gun barrel like a blunderbuss, which he uses to make a lame, reduced penetration RKA. I imagine his armor would malfunction a lot too (like the Maine in the BBB). He's also got a vehicle: the Blunderbuss Bus! It's one of those short school buses, which he's converted to suit his nefarious purposes. It breaks down a lot too.

I have a character who is a little similar to Doro (though much weaker). Domino is able to make her consciousness leap from person to person, knocking out the host when she leaves it. I built this as a a powerful Mind Control with UBO, so the person she is mind controlling can use her mind control power to enter someone else. Domino's body is inactive while using this power. I had to cheat a little to build the "knockout": I made it a Side Effect of the Mind Control: Drain vs. STUN. It's munchkiny, because she's able to damage people with a limitation on her own power. She takes the STUN drain herself the first time she uses the Mind Control, but she has enough STUN that it won't knock her out. You could build Doro in a similar way, with a BODY Drain or HKA side effect, but it would be extremely expensive (and munchkiny). But this won't work if Doro is just a free consciousness, who kills even his own original body. In that case, I like altamaros's idea of making him an AI, since he doesn't really have a physical form. He wouldn't need to buy a body as a vehicle, IMHO. He could just Mind Control different characters.

It's -1/4.

DOH! 12 END, yeah, that would be pretty costly. Guess I did overlook something. There is another, extremely munckiny way of building this that avoids the END problem: 25 pt. EC reserve, No range for all slots (-1/2) Cost: 17 real points 1. Grab Attack: 8D6 EB, Half END cost (+1/4), no range (-1/2), must grab (-1/4). Cost: 50 active, 14 real. 2 END per phase. 2. Defensive Attack: 8D6 EB, continuous (+1), Half END cost (+1/4), no range (-1/2), must grab (-1/4), target can end "continuous" by not HTH attacking/touching me (-1/4). Cost: 90 active, 32 real points. 4 END per phase. 63 points, 6 END per phase. Huzzah! I hate myself for building the power that way though, and it is still a few points over the cost of applying the +1/2 adavantage to a 40 point EB, so maybe I do need to consider a house rule.

I'm not in an active game currently, but I'm planning to keep the 4th edition version of Damage Shield, +1/2 advantage. So, this isn't a house rule, but I thought I'd share my reasoning on it. I see damage shield as 2 powers: a no range attack that only damages when you grab the target, and a defensive no range attack that only hits targets who hit you HTH. If I were to buy these attacks separately, I'd buy them like this: 1. Grab Attack: 8D6 EB, no range (-1/2), must grab (-1/4). Cost: 40 active, 23 real points. The Grab attack doesn't need to be continuous, since it only damages the target on my action phases (with a normal no range EB, I've always ruled that you automatically hit if you are grabbing the target; it just makes sense), and the target can end the attack if he breaks out of my grab. 2. Defensive Attack: 8D6 EB, continuous (+1), no range (-1/2), must grab (-1/4), target can end "continuous" by not HTH attacking/touching me (-1/4). Cost: 80 active, 40 real points. Together, these would cost 63 points, very close to +1/2 for a 40 point power with DS. Also, the cheaper Grab attack would be linked to the Defensive attack; and that is a limitation, since you can't grab anything while using your Damage Shield without causing damage. With Linked (-1/2), the Grab attack costs 16 points, and the whole power is only 56 points. One could argue that -1/4 is too high a limitation for "must grab." But even if you take it out, the Defensive Attack costs 46 real points, and the linked Grab Attack costs 18 points = 64 points. (And anyway, -1/4 might be too low a value for the "target can end continuous by not HTH attacking/touching me" limitation, so I think these balance out.) Of course, this reasoning breaks down with no range powers, like HKA, but an HKA would get the "can't add STR" limitation instead. It seems to me, if you build the power, it's equivalent to a +1/2 advantage, so that's what it should cost. Maybe I'm overlooking something...

WillS mentioned this idea a few pages back, but it didn't attract much discussion. I really like inversely linking the active point max to SPD, although I would go with active points = 120-(SPD * 10). (I'm accustomed to lower-powered games, so a character with a 6 SPD and a 14D6 EB frightens me a bit. But whatever works for you.) Having a standard point cost for characters (like 350 pts.) is meant to balance different character types out, but in my experience SPD and DEX give you such a good return on your point investment that speedy characters tend to be more powerful. Slower characters need to devote most of their DEX and SPD savings to high defenses, or else they'll spend their precious phases dodging and blocking. Giving them a higher active point cap for their attacks seems like a nice way to help maintain balance. Has anyone else tried this?

BLASPHEMY! Kill the Infidel! I follow every rule, no matter how stupid or damaging to the enjoyment of the game. I even blindly followed the jumping distance rules in 2nd edition D&D's Dungeoneers Survival Guide: distance was based on class and level, not any of those silly, meaningless characteristics! "You think a strong, fast 1st level fighter can out jump a 20th level Cleric with an 8 strength? Are you crazy?!?" And I never speed either.

Re: Gestalt character assistance? [smiles] Yes, you would need to take the +1 advantage for duplication, since the "duplicates" are completely different. This new advantage makes Duplication a lot more expensive, and maybe too expensive (I've almost never used this power, so I can't really say). If your game group agrees that the +1 advantage is too much, you could reduce it (maybe +1/2?) or just throw it out. Depends on how much your group tweaks the rules. The character you describe is a cool concept, but I think you might have a few more cost problems with it. The gestalt form will probably be the most expensive (since it will have the powers of 3 other people), so it will be a really expensive multiform. It would be cheaper to make it the base form, and have the 3 other characters be the multiform and 2 duplicates, but this doesn't really fit what you are trying to create: with that structure, if one of the duplicates was killed, you'd still be able to revert back to the gestalt form (which should be impossible). I think you've got the mechanics of it figured out correctly, but it'll be a really costly character. It sounds like you're just making this as an experiment though, so maybe cost isn't a concern.

One downside is the cost: Desolidification is expensive. Once you add on the necessary advantages (UBO, usable as attack, increased mass, etc), it will be really costly. Desolidifying the ground under someone is a cool idea too, but it's probably cheaper to use Tunneling to do both of these tricks. Also, with Desolidification, you run into a problem with wall thickness. Buy Deslodification, usable as attack, one-hex area effect, etc. and you can get through a one-hex thick wall, but that's it. AE any area or line would probably work though. Aroooo mentioned the "Gate" modifier to Teleportation (on p. 149-150 of FREd). I hadn't noticed this modifier before, but I think it's the best way to go for the portal. It's got all the mechanics included: other people can see and attack through it, and the teleport range nicely determines how thick a wall would need to be in order to prevent the character from portaling through it. Of course, a Teleport Gate would be a poor mechanic for removing the ground beneath someone's feet: you'd still want tunneling or desolidification for that. Throw them both in a multipower and it shouldn't be too costly. It would be interesting to see the different approaches to this power written out, so I say build the power however you want, and show us what you get.

The trick with Doorman is that his body is the portal. The object doesn't go anywhere: he just becomes a sort of wormhole through it. At first, this seems like UBO Teleportation or Desolidification to me, with limitations like "can only use to travel through an object." Really, he's making the wall itself desolid, so anything can pass through it. I don't recall from the comics, but I would guess an attack fired at him on one side of the wall would pass through him and the wall to the other side. You can't get that effect from Teleportation. And UBO Desolidification would make his teammates immune to attack when passing through the portal, and attacks still wouldn't pass through the object Doorman was "opening." He'd be desolid, but the wall would still be there. Tunneling didn't seem right to me at first, but now I think Dr. Anomaly is on the right track. I would probably build it as a both Tunneling and Desolidifcation: he's desolid, but he can only move to the other side of the wall. The tunnel is there, but only while he is desolid and stationary. When he moves through, the tunnel is gone. This could get kind of expensive though. Ultimately it depends on the finer details of the power. Is he immune to most attacks when he's acting as the door? Are people passing through him immune? And do attacks pass through him?

Champions II and III are supplements to 2nd edition: everything in them is either an addition to or a clarification of 2nd edition rules. (I've never even seen a copy of 3rd edition, so I don't know whether it incorporates anything from Champions II and III.) Almost everything from those 2 books was included in the BBB, with a lot of little changes. For example, Champions III introduced powers like Duplication, Damage Reduction, Knockback Resistance, Multiform, Shape Shift, and Transform. They aren't all identical to they way they are written up in the BBB, but they're basically the same powers. Other things in Champions III like the Mental Paralysis power or the Shockwave manuever were dropped from later revisions of the game. You seem to want a simpler version of the Champions rules, devoted only to superheroes (not the universal system that HERO has become). 2nd edition might give you what you are looking for. (Archer might be right that 3rd is as far back as you'd want to go: I can't say.) 2nd edition is probably cheaper and easier to find than 1st, and they are basically identical anyway. Let me tell you a little more about it, so you can compare it with FREd. There were only 12 skills in 2nd edition: acrobatics, climbing, computer programming, detective work, disguise, find weakness, luck, martial arts, security systems, skill levels, stealth, and swinging. That's it. No talents or perks either. A lot of those skills did the work of several skills now, e.g. Acrobatics included Breakfall, and Detective Work covered deduction, criminology, cryptography, etc. There were 44 powers, compared to 65 in FREd. The 2nd edition powers were the basics you would expect: FLight, Energy Blast, Force Field, etc. Most them work almost exactly the same as they do in 5th edition. Most of the more offbeat powers (Duplication, Multiform, Absorption, Extra Dimensional Movement, Summon, Supress, Transform, etc.) are not there, though almost all of those were introduced in Champions II or III. The only power frameworks are multipower and elemental control. No VPPs. There are far fewer advantages and limitations: about 10 of each. Fewer disadvantages, combat manuevers, etc. No rules for vehicles or bases. Characters were built on only 200 pts. in 2nd edition. That's not much, but you don't have to stick to it. We frequently built characters on 250-300 pts, and they would be closer in power level to 5th edition characters (but with far fewer options). Overall, 2nd edition is a much simpler version of the same system. You could play it quite easily if you know FREd, and new players would be less intimidated by it. There are many characters you can't build, but if you have FREd, you can gradually add new powers and rules as needed. If you get a campaing going and eventually want to switch over to 5th edition, there will be a bit of work to do, but your players should be much more comfortable with the rules by that point. There's a lot of great new material in the later editions, but the HERO system is still basically the same as it was at the start.

I think there are a lot of good reasons to start with one of the earlier editions, but what edition you should start with depends a lot on your experience with RPGs and on what you want out of this game. I've played HERO games for over 20 years, so I see FREd (5th edition) in a very different way than a newbie would. IMHO, FREd is written for experienced gamers, and maybe even experienced HERO gamers. That doesn't mean you can't learn the game from FREd. It has excellent examples, lots of related products, and great support on the HERO Web site: the author even answers your questions personally! FREd is a little daunting though. It's a huge book, and HERO is a complex system (although that is the reason most of us love it so much). Also, FREd doesn't come with any characters you can use: you can't just take a few characters from the book and try to play them to figure out how the game works (and I think that's often the best way to get your feet wet with a new system). Other books like 5th edition CHAMPIONS have many pre-made characters, but you'll have to invest over $70 to get FREd and CHAMPIONS. I think they are worth every penny, but they might not be the best place to start. I have 1st, 2nd, and 4th edition CHAMPIONS as well, and I think any of these books would be a great place to start. As Syberdwarf2 mentioned, many of these earlier books are collector's items (you can't have mine!), but I've seen many copies on E-bay, especially 2nd and 4th edition. Let me sum up those editions for you briefly. The 1st (1981) and 2nd (1982) editions were much shorter (56 and 80 pages respectively), but most of the rules in them haven't changed too much over the years, or they've changed in very understandable ways. Back then, Champions was the HERO system, so all the rules you need to run the game are in those books. 1st and 2nd also came with character-creation walkthroughs, that explained the process very clearly. Both books have 11 pre-made characters (2 heroes and 9 villains), and 1st also has stats for 2 kinds of agents. A friend of mine got 1st edition when we were both 12, and we learned to play it in a single afternoon. We made a lot of mistakes, but we picked it up very quickly. The rules in 1st and 2nd edition are almost identical too, so if you can find 1 copy of each, your gaming group could use those different editions and not have any problems. There's a lot that's missing from those early rulebooks though. Many really useful rules, powers, etc. were introduced in the supplements CHAMPIONS II (from 1982) and CHAMPIONS III (1984). You don't need those to play, but they give you so many more options that they are worth having. That is just another thing to track down, but they shouldn't be very expensive. 4th edition (the Big Blue Book or BBB,) is a 300+ page book. (There is a smaller, soft-cover version of 4th that just has the HERO system rules, without the superhero sourcebook, but I'm not very familiar with that.) The BBB (1989) has signifcant revisions of 1st/2nd edition rules, and includes updated versions of the information in CHAMPIONS II and III. It has over 30 characters, including all the characters from the 1st/2nd edition rules, most of the characters from the early VIPER'S NEST adventure (a little booklet that came in the 2nd edition boxed set), and many new characters and villains. It also has some sample adventures and other useful stuff for someone starting a game. I think the BBB is the best RPG book ever. FREd (the 2nd best, IMHO) has better, more-detailed descriptions with tons of examples and clarifications. It's a necessary revision and superior version of the HERO system, but as a single book, the BBB does more for a newbie to the system. My wife had played just a few RPGs over the years, but she found the BBB very accessible. Some problems with the BBB: early editions had a binding problem, so the pages started to fall out. Later printings don't have this problem, so you'd want to make sure you found a BBB with a decent binding. The BBB was also very expensive before FREd came out, although I'm guessing the price has come down now. If money is no object for you and your players, I would say get FREd and some of its supplements. If you want to try the system out, get whatever cheaper earlier edition you can find: as long as you're informed about the contents of thsoe early books, you can get what you need. Chances are, you'll like the earlier editions so much, you'll want to buy 5th edition stuff too. And if not, you won't be out 70 bucks.

"Jailbait" was my first thought too. The media knows she's actually 19, but I could imagine a newspaper running her picture with the headline "JAILBAIT?" So it's technically incorrect, but I think it would stick.

Urban Sasquatch! tenebre and Acroyear, both of your sites are really cool. I'm stealing all sorts of stuff from both of them. I love Urban Sasquatch! The "shambling vindictive force of destruction"! Now I want to change my log-in name ...

Is Faster-Than-Light Travel necessary now that we have the megascale advantage for Flight? Here's a comparison: 10 pts. FTL gives a movement of 1 LY/year and costs 0 END. 1" Flight (assuming no minimum power cost) is 2 pts. Add megascale: 1" = 10 trillion km (approx 1 light year), for +3.5 and 0 END for +0.5. You get a movement of 1 LY/phase at 0 END for only 10 pts! Seems like megascale is "the only way to fly." I know the FAQ says you need megascaled senses to travel around accurately with megascaled Flight. It doesn't mention megascaled senses and FTL, but I would assume it would be the same: you'd better be able to see really far if you don't want to hit anything. Maybe turn mode could be more of a problem for megascaled Flight? I haven't figured that out yet. I'm just spit-balling here. Any comments?