TranquiloUno

I think there are two elements to this question when it comes to Hero;
 
How much can you simplify so someone can play a character they have in front of them? (i.e. the Con Game)
How much can you simplify character creation and world building?
 
Showing someone how skills work, how modifiers effect things, and how combat works is very different (in any game system) from showing them how to create a character or campaign.
 
For example, you could remove Combat Maneuvers from the system, and utilize a system of Combat Skill Levels only to simulate various shifts in how martial combat works in play. Most of the rest is flavor text. Even the free maneuvers and basic maneuvers, like Multi Attack could be drastically simplified to "take more than one attack action and you incur a -2 to every attack action per extra action taken" - this isn't even an uncommon aspect in gaming.
 
But, if you want to simplify the creation process, that isn't as easy - but I don't think it's out of reach.
 
Doing something like removing Endurance completely as both a stat and a consideration in character builds can greatly affect how someone approaches their build and the game.
 
Someone could do something like remove the Speed Chart, but keep Speed - as a number of dice you roll in the Initiative Phase; Body on the Dice = Actions per Turn. Going round robin until people start to run out of Actions to use, keeps DEX basically the same. Would this simplify things for new gamers? Maybe, it's not entirely foreign idea and prevents the standard back-and-forth most systems create.
 
Now, what any one of us might remove and still be what we consider a "Hero System Game" may vary quite a bit. But as I said before, as long as you keep the core tenant of separating Mechanics from Special Effects you can still capture the essence of what Hero is. Regardless of what other unique, and recognizable, elements the system has over others.

It's an interesting question and kinda what I was wondering about in the Sell me on Hero thread.
Because how much we need (and still keeping it Hero) is kinda about that, right?
 
Defining characteristics of Hero for me would be things like: Endless point-buy options based on the various Powers and....maybe hex-based combats with a lot of standard combat options?
 
3d roll low doesn't seem super Hero-y to me. Or particularly important to the system (I know other folks do not agree with this).
Point-based builds don't seem super Hero-y to me. In that there are plenty of other systems doing that.
 
Flexible character creation often seems like a red herring to me. In theory it's infinitely flexible but in practice, in actual games, it generally isn't, and often isn't relevant even then.
If we're playing Fantasy Hero and I wanna play a guy with a sword\Aragorn\generic warrior dude then I'm probs just gonna buy some very standard stuff and not try to talk the GM in to letting me have a Cosmic VPP (Only for Sword Tricks) and creating my own specialized intricate martial maneuvers or whatever.
 
So, particularly in terms of just teaching the mechanics of task and combat resolution, it would come down to Core Mechanic (3d roll low, not unique to Hero but the basis of learning the game and doing stuff in it) and probably all the default combat options (except I don't think those are particularly worth teaching right off the bat because new folks won't have a frame to relate the OCV\DCV stuff to).
 
Stun\Bod and Normal\Killing are pretty distinctly Hero as well. And often quite confusing for new folks. Probably worth time spending time on during teaching sessions but considering you can do away with Stun in Fantasy Hero maybe it's not the most Hero of Hero bits to include right off.
I mean why does damage need to be so crunchy, right? Can't we just PLAY already?
 
I dunno, it's hard to answer because for me the crunch is a part of the appeal but also the crunch is what makes it hard and intimidating to new folks. The more crunch gets peeled off the more it's Hero Lite or something.
 
 
 
 

I think therea a Semantics gap. 
 
The rules say Martial Maneuvers cost a Minimum of 3 pts. 
 
There are non martial plain old combat maneuvers that are free.  I skimmed (admitting that up front; I did not do a detailed re-read) the rules last night, and I don't see anything separating the two beyond "characters who are martial artists"  and "martial arts skill" and the like. 
 
There doesn't seem to be a hard rule defining what is a martial maneuver and what is a combat maneuver.  This is further clouded by the presentation that any fighting style down to barroom brawling may be taken as a "martial art." 
 
From all I could see, there is nothing in the book disallowing the creation of infinite free maneuvers or categorizing them as "martial" and "non-martial" beyond defining them as such when they are created. 

My son, @Scything, has started playing the Hero System. Yesterday he asked me for a Hero Designer license so that he can make characters on his own.
 
Hero Designer: the multi-generational Hero System character creation software

A high Dex is analogous to having a High altitude in a dogfight. It confers more control and greater options, and therefore a higher chance of success in one's endeavors. Remember, Hero was and is primarily a combat game.  as such that which gives you an advantage in combat is more expensive.

Wow,.....
 "Story Story Story.."

"Genre Genre Genre"

">...the hell?"

I think the whole reason for "Dark Champions"  became a thing was two fold: 1.) the base rules started as a Silver Age pastiche, but Comic books themselves transitioned into the dark and gritty phase after the Comics Code faded in concert with the fading of the news stand market, and the rise of the Direct Sales Market.  2.) People feeling that superhero Genre Conventions weren't all that realistic ("To hell with tights. I'm wearing Kevlar Torso armor, sap gloves, and a decent helmet), and perhaps the war game aspects of Hero, especially since it was at the time, debuted at a War Game Convention, the biggest on the West Coast at the time.

 As such, I am not here for the story. Story is what happens after you finish the game. what I am here for is the problem.  I have a tactical mind, and for me Each game presents for me a problem to solve, within the framework of the rules, with the resources we have been given.  As a GM that's how I plan.  I figure out what the opposition thinks of the Player characters, and what the relative strengths and weaknesses are between them, then figure out where, and when, and present that to the players , then i sit back and listen. Loads of fun. But this focus on genre conventions and story structure to me, is not fun. I love to roleplay, but I prefer that the characters have internally consistent reasons for them to behave the way they do, rather than external reasons focused on "collaborative storytelling".  Just give me dice, Miniatures and a mat. I will be quite happy to write something up.
 
[Game-ist- Simulationist]
 

I'm glad someone mentioned that.  Yes, one of the big appeals of Champions (and later HERO), at least to me, was that you could be a skilled combatant (if you wished) without having to also be a mass-murderer or serial killer.  In other words, traveling the countryside thwarting villains and monsters did not automatically turn your party into yet another pack of murder-hobos, which greatly enhanced the odds of finding players who wanted to be-- well, something _more_ than just murderous hobos.
 
 

Switching to Champions (from AD&D back in the day) was a no-brainer for me because of two major aspects of the Hero System that I was immediately drawn to:
 
1. The character building system was logical and extremely flexible. I am a "builder" by nature, and so this system not only made sense to me logically and mathematically, it appealed to the engineer/designer in me. The notion that everything could be expressed in terms of Character Points was a total game changer. A further consequence of the point-build system was that the simplistic and rigid "level" system of D&D was replaced with a more user-directed and granular character progression paradigm, which was a welcome change to me.
 
2. The combat system, along with the separation of BODY and STUN (and the use of END to power, well, powers) was so much more logical to me than THAC0, hit points, and saving throws. The awkward way that AD&D tried to incorporate the concept of knocking an opponent out (rather than killing them) never really worked right with the concept of hit points, and the BODY/STUN paradigm solved this problem elegantly.
 
Basically, anyone who has played D&D for a while and has become frustrated by its over-simplifications, awkward combat mechanics, and rigid leveling system could do a lot worse than to look at the Hero System as a remedy for all those woes.

If none of the strengths of hero are a draw; well, you know what - I can't help you.
 
D&D is a box, it's not even a particularly creative box. You choose from cut outs, you play cut outs, and you fight cut outs. Heck, some editions of D&D barely encourage roleplaying in any sense, non-combat aspects had to be (badly) stapled into AD&D2E. D&D4E (still my favorite edition, really) is basically a board game. It comes right out and even tells you "you need these elements in a party. deviating will make the game not work."
 
Hero's strength is flexibility, versatility, and yep, does require some up front work to get going. You have to know what flavor of game you want to play, without that it's just a book full of words.
If you want a grab & go system, there's bunches out there.

So here are a couple of observation from Origins this week, where I was in a couple of sessions with complete beginners:
They can’t understand the character sheets. Don’t try to sell them on HERO with the character sheets! I actually liked the layout of a couple of the HD templates, but I knew what I was looking at. What really helped was a separate page that explained, in plain language, what their powers could do. Emphasize this kind of simplicity. Sell them on the ease of the skill system. It’s wide open, and one set of skills is not dependent on another set of skills, so none of those meta-gamey skill trees are needed, thank you very much. Totally emphasize he flexibility of combat! It’s way cool, as long as you help them understand the core concepts (OCV, DCV, and the effects of maneuvers to these). One dice roll resolves most of it. But please, Please, PLEASE do not teach them this: 11 + OCV - dice roll= DCV you can hit. NOBODY understood what the hell this means! Seriously. I watched it happen in real time. They were able to calculate stuff and make the dice roll, but they didn’t intuitively understand why they were doing it. Teach them the pre-6th way: 11 + OCV - DCV = the roll you need to make. People get it when you are subtracting the opponent’s DCV from your OCV. It makes intuitive sense. Who cares if they know the opponent’s DCV while they are learning the game. That sort of meta-game knowledge may actually help them understand the interaction of the parts better. You can always unload the 6e formula on hem later if you want to hide the DCV. I can’t emphasize this enough. It was a deal breaker for a couple of the new folks, who never quite got the math. When players simply sit back while you calculate everything for their roll, it’s a good indicator that they’ve pretty much tuned out. While it may take getting used to, it’s exciting to roll a handful of dice for damage! People often cheer at a good die roll, but they go nuts for a good 10d6 roll! Just a few observations from the field. God bless all you GMs who run these convention games! I couldn’t do it. 

I can't disagree with Massey.  There are things D&D does not do well, but there are also things it does well.  D&D is prepackaged - Hero requires more work.
 
As has been set out well above, Hero provides more options and greater flexibility.  WIth this comes an unavoidable increase in complexity.
 
If the players are happy with their elves, dwarves, wizards, clerics, fighters, rogues, etc. all advancing on pre-designed paths, selecting from pre-designed feats, paths and spells, etc., then there is no reason to change.
 
If the players are asking why their Dwarf can't be more skilled in woodcraft than mining (he's just a dwarf raised in the forest) or their wizard can't wear heavy armor, or their fighter can't know three spells (a first level, a third level and a seventh level) and  no more magic, or they can't attempt to trip, or block those incoming attacks, or Dive for Cover to avoid that dragon's breath - if they are looking for greater flexibility - then a change merits consideration.

This'll be unpopular, but there's no reason to switch.  There is no way that Hero does D&D better than D&D.
 
You switch to Hero because you want a system that does superheroes well, and if you are going to do fantasy or sci-fi, because you want complete control over how to do weird things you can't do in other systems.  But if you think role-playing is just a normal dungeon crawl, there's no reason at all to use Hero.

Ok, so here it goes from a person who has only been playing/GMing for a couple of years.
 
1) As mentioned, you can have any hero you want.  Classes don't exist, so mix & match whatever power and skills you want to get the correct effect.
 
2) Play is fast and easy, character creation takes the most math.  However, using the Hero Designer program (sold and supported on this site) makes this easy and pretty fun, too.  You can spend minutes creating a character or days, it depends on how involved you'd like to be.
 
3) It isn't d20. It uses small and large groups of d6's, so the dice are not "weird" for casual players.
 
4) If you buy a book to start get Champions Complete (for superheroes), Star Hero (for sci-fi), or Fantasy Hero (for D&D or other medieval style game).  The books are smaller than the three tombs of D&D and contain all of the rules you need to play the game (full stop).  They won't scare your players, and they might even want to thumb through the books at the table (or outside of the session).
 
5) Hero is a sandbox.  Once you learn the rules, you can have any adventure anywhere for any genre.  This sounds overwhelming, but it is liberating.  For instance, say your group saw a movie (The Matrix, for instance), and want to recreate it.  No problem in Hero.  Just use the tech skills and change the special effect of the power/abilities to match the setting (such as the Change Environment power is what the team does to get a special item, or bullet time is a boost to the Speed ability (# of times a character can act in a turn).  It is a pretty effective system.
 
6) Normally, people get jazzed when they play a superhero that can fly through the air or pick up a bus and slam it into a bad guy.  The players may get more excited about playing, too.
 
Oh, and the current system creator, Steve Long, answers questions in the Rules forum himself, and the discussion forums are pretty friendly.  D&D doesn't have this sort of customer service.
 
See if a group in your area is using the Hero system, and drop in for a look.  Good luck.
 
Good luck!

I'd have to sneak it to you.  I really don't think I could plop down the current library and say "You're going to love this! First, brush up on Character Creation...."
 
I'd either start you with 6e Basic (Why is that not Sidekick?  That worked _twice_ before! )  or a much older edition (likely 2, but possibly 3) and make a couple of characters, play a couple of scenarios...
 
I'd keep the "real books" hidden until I knew you liked it.
 
 

This, to me, seems the biggest selling point to Hero.
 
The downside to this is that everything needs to be built.  

I've seriously considered setting the base for OCV vs. DCV to 10 instead of 11 so that it starts at a 50/50 shot. 
 
MMA Fights are typically 3 rounds of 5 minutes each.  Landing 50 strikes a round is very high output and generally only happens with the higher skill level end of the lighter weight classes.  Most fights are substantially less as I suspect that the normal flow of events is the slower fighter always goes for block or dodge and then counters when they can.  If you pace the fight for strike-block-counter the numbers work out better.
 
One of the coolest eye-opening training encounters I did for my D&D converts consisted of the Witcher character and his guard captain dueling with great swords.  They blocked and countered each other 4-5x without a single blow landing until the Witcher took a stunning blow to the stomach, recovered and took a knockout blow to the helmet.  The players hadn't had advanced options like block, dodge, pinning limbs with a Grab, etc. in D&D.
 
Similarly one of the characters got grabbed (both arms) by a were rat who then spent each phase trying to bite their face and was screaming for help from his allies.  Great times!
 
I'd say in MMA you see roughly 3 levels of stunning strike:
1-  Wobbled - Fighter takes a hit that causes a brief cringe, cover or makes their legs go rubbery for just a split second.  Much like stunned - recover at lower DEX on same segment.
2-  Stunned - Fighter takes a hit that causes them to go rubbery legged or takes a body shot so bad they can do nothing but cover up and back-pedal for their lives.
3-  Rocked -  Fighter takes a hit that causes them to collapse and leaves them desperate to remain in the fight.  I would consider these shots that take them to zero-to-minus-nine STUN.  Survival rate from these shots is under 50%.
 
Then of course there are critical hits and these usually result in an INSTANT full-health to deeply unconscious hit.
Classic Example:  Fighter drops his arms to defend a body kick which turns out to be a head kicks - oops! - sleepy time.
Another Example:  Conor McGregor KO'ing decade long undefeated Jose Aldo in 13 seconds.  They trade right hook vs. counter-right hook and only one of them rolled a crit.
 
I think HERO models those pretty well (plus or minus my issue with parts of the recovering from being stunned rule).
Highly trained martial artist with 15ish STR landing martial strikes in the 5-7d6 damage range plus several levels for OCV/DCV/damage.
 
A critical hit from a 7d6 punch or kick is 14 BOD/42 STUN and with mortal PD being in the 5-7 range for lighter weight classes you're looking at taking 35+ STUN and possibly a major injury (beyond the concussion) such as a fractured orbital, broken ribs, ruptured liver, etc.
 
 

Been watching Young Justice Outsiders...
 
They have some pretty impressive contact lenses, got me thinking about Hero Masks
 
What powers do you build into yours?

Taking an amount of damage so low that it doesn't keep up with your recovery score is not "being pounded".  I'll admit this power construct in an absurdity made purely to point how how inconsistent and odious I find the current recover from being stunned rules.
 
I just can't stand the idea of stunned = dead because you'll never get another chance to act unless the villain misses you at 1/2 DCV.  I want a chance for heroes and villain alike to rally from one bad hit and continue the fight.
 
Even in MMA (which I'm big fan of) the best fights have solid back and forth action.  When a guy looks ruined by a savage blow and finds his composure and is able to fight on and even win.
 
The first variation of the rule where you get stunned before your DEX on your Phase and fully recover on your DEX (so less than 1 second) is the way I like stunned to work.  You lose your turn.  That is bad enough.
The second variation where you hold your action - get stunned - and lose the held action and DO NOT recover from being stunned - I like this less, but I can live with it.
The third variation where you take any damage at all on a segment you have a phase in and you can't recover at all is just - and I'm reluctant to be this forceful about it - stupid.  It's dumb.
 
SPD 4 character example:
Segment 3 - You use your phase.
Segment 3 - You get stunned.
Segment 5 - You take another massive blow (but not quite enough to KO you).
Segment 6 - You recover from being stunned.
 
VS.
 
Segment 3 - You use your phase.
Segment 3 - You get stunned.
Segment 6 - You take a SINGLE point of stun damage.
Segment 6 - You lose your phase and DO NOT recover from being stunned.
 
This makes ZERO sense.  None.

Multipower (60 Points)
u) Mulitform: 4x 250 Points
u) EB 12d6
 

In Hero Games, another point to make is a low experience character can tag along just fine with a high experience character. Oh, the high experience character is more versed and capable but you can still adventure together.

In D&D, you simply can't do that in D&D with a 1st lvl and a 12th lvl character; the 1st lvl might as well read a paper to the side to avoid dying often and... would he even get xp just for watching people fight?
 
Toxxus said it well with, "Monsters and Enemies are scary - The unlimited build potential for villains means players can't rely on their innate knowledge of the Monster Manual to know what is happening.  Each creature can be a terrifying and unique thing with custom powers." 

This is a great point.  When I recently modeled several D&D spells into HERO for my players one thing that consistently happened is that the stupidly over-powered spells became hard to do without prohibitive costs.
 
"What do you mean the force wall breaks??" - HERO has some absolutes, but not many.  And this is a very good thing.
 
Not having a hard list of codified spells and monsters also keeps players on their toes.  It re-introduces the fear of the unknown and makes for a much better game, imo.

My big sell for HERO is internal consistency. D&D is full of black boxes and special cases. HERO is completely transparent and provides you with all the tools to tweak characters, monsters and spells. You can do it in D&D but the risk of introducing imbalances in the system are massive.

In this particular case I believe the issue is that the rule for recovering from being stunned is unnecessarily punitive and leads to some pretty anti-heroic scenarios.
 
I've beat this horse into a fine red puree by now, but taking damage shouldn't stop you from recovering from being stunned unless it is sufficient to stun you again.
 
The rules aren't even consistent with themselves:
1-  If you have a lower DEX than your attacker then you can recover from being stunned in the same segment despite having taking sufficient damage to stun you in the same segment.
2-  If you hold your action - You lose it and cannot recover from being stunned.  Now you're effectively stunned for 2 phases (current phase & next phase to recover - maybe).
3-  If you have a higher DEX than your attacker then you can recover from being stunned ONLY if you don't take any damage at all in the next segment you have a Phase in until your DEX arrives.  Any damage at all stun-locks you - indefinitely.
 
Situation 1 makes sense to me.
Situation 2 I don't like as much.
Situation 3 I have to house rule so I can continue to have players and not have my boss monsters stun-locked by a single critical hit.

The defense is "not currently being stunned".  That way nobody takes any damage at all.  But once they're stunned - it's all over.  Stun Lock coma time for everyone.  The damage is probably right at or just below the REC of everyone so healthy types stay conscious, but Stun Locked by the crazy (imo) rule that taking any damage prevents you from recovering from being stunned.  The less healthy will gradually fall into a coma from which they never recover.
 
The power effects almost nobody.  But eventually every NFL player that takes a hard hit.  Every MMA fighter or boxer that takes a stunning blow succumbs to a permanent stun lock.
 
Sports are completely abandoned.  Culture is destroyed by the Legion of Evil! 

It's right there in the wording.  They are obviously different things.
 
Consider this:  If being stunned means you can take no Recoveries - then how do you recover from being stunned?  The only solution to this is that they are, in fact, separate game terms.
Unless someone wants to argue that being stunned is a permanent condition.
 
Syllogistically speaking you are choosing between two choices given the wording:
 
A character who is Stunned can take no Recoveries.
Recovering from being Stunned is a Recovery.
Conclusion:  A Stunned character cannot Recover from being Stunned.
 
OR - And I would argue more sensibly
 
A character who is Stunned can take no Recoveries.
Recovering from being Stunned is NOT a Recovery.
Conclusion:  A Stunned character can recover from being stunned.