jfg17

It looks like a typo. At the beginning of the example they refer to the character sheets on page 122+ (Defender's is on 122). He has a PD of 20 like the example paragraph you cite says at first but then subtracts 22 from the BODY done. In either case, the result is the same: Defender takes no BODY from the attack.
 
But, it's still a mistake/typo (IMO).

So, I have a plan!
For me and my brain, the original Champions Attack equation and explanation of the Attack equation is more intuitive than that in in later editions, so I'm going to stick with the original. Thanks, all.

The Umbrella Academy is worth sticking around for the whole season.

Here's what I'd do.  It sounds like you're just wanting to learn the combat system for yourself.  Rather than worry about a bunch of optional rules, I'd just set up a few fights with you acting as both player and GM.  Start slow, focusing on one aspect at a time.
 
Fight #1 -- Take a Champions brick (somebody like Ogre) and let yourself fight a group of regular cops.  I don't know what books you have, but if you don't have any stats for Ogre, use a generic super-strong guy.  60 Strength, 18 Dex, 30 Con, 30 PD and ED (all resistant), 4 Speed, 60 Stun, OCV 8, DCV 6, 10" of Running, 20" of Leaping.  Now go rampaging through town.  Every turn two cop cars pull up, with two cops getting out of each one.  The cops shoot at Ogre with their guns (damage is inconsequential -- they're all too weak to hurt him, but it's good for you to practice rolling to-hit).  Set out some figures on a game mat and just learn how the basics of the game work.  Spend a phase or two grabbing cop cars and hurling them through the air.  Use your high leaping movement to bound away off the map and leave the cops behind.  Smash holes in walls and rip trees out of the ground.  Just think of cool things you could do if you were a rampaging super-strong monster, then look up how to do it in the book.  Don't worry about trying to be efficient or effective in combat.  Don't track endurance, or calculate knockback, or even worry about damage if you don't want to (anything Ogre hits will shatter, nothing can hurt Ogre).  Just learn the basics of rolling to hit, and how the Speed chart works.
 
Fight #2 -- Now a local superhero shows up to fight Ogre.  Make sure the guy is a little weaker than you (of course, you're playing both sides, so it doesn't matter who "wins"). Fire Lad has a 20 Dex, 25 Con, 25 PD and ED with his fiery force field, 5 Speed, 40 Stun, OCV 8 and DCV 7, 15" of Flight, and a 10D6 Energy Blast.  He will have a very hard time whittling Ogre down.  Try to play each guy to win.  Look at how damage works now.  Don't track endurance, but maybe look at Knockback, and maybe range penalties.  Ogre should still win this fight -- Fire Lad will have to get close to Ogre to hit him, close enough that Ogre can jump through the air and smack him.  And remember to be creative with how you fight.  If Fire Lad stays too high in the air, Ogre can always smash through a wall and go inside a building.  Or he can throw a manhole cover and then drop down into the sewers.  Or he can climb inside some poor lady's minivan and hide ("No go out there lady, fire guy shoot at Ogre!").
 
Fight #3 -- It's time to add in some other powers besides raw damage.  After Fire Lad's defeat, the Caped Avenger shows up.  He's a dark and mysterious avenger of the night.  26 Dex, 25 Con, 20 PD and ED, 6 Speed, 40 Stun, OCV 10 and DCV 10, 10" of Running and 10" of Leaping.  He's highly skilled in the martial arts (the character has 25 Str and +2 damage classes with martial arts).  He has an Offensive Strike maneuver (a powerful spinning roundhouse kick) that does 5D6 for Str, +4D6 for the Offensive Strike maneuver, +2D6 for extra damage classes, for a total of 11D6.  Doing it increases his DCV by 1, but decreases his OCV by 2 (OCV 8, DCV 11).  It's hard to hit with.  He's also got a Martial Dodge maneuver that increases his DCV by 5, but he can't attack the phase he uses it.  And he has a Nerve Strike maneuver that does 3D6 damage and ignores defenses (it has the same OCV/DCV as the spinning roundhouse).  Finally he has a Martial Strike maneuver, a basic punch that does 9D6 damage, but boosts his DCV and doesn't hurt his OCV (OCV 10, DCV 12).  He'll have a hard time hurting Ogre with the basic punch, so that's why he carries a Utility Belt.  His Utility Belt is a Multipower (don't worry about exactly how this works yet), which lets him use different tricks.  He carries 4 blinding flares, which is an 8D6 Flash vs Sight (which will temporarily blind Ogre).  Once he uses the 4 charges, they're gone.  He has 2 gas pellets, which do 3D6 damage on each of Caped Avenger's phases for a full turn and ignore defenses, but they can be avoided if Ogre holds his breath (they are not Area of Effect -- to hurt Ogre the Caped Avenger has to throw them in his mouth).  The Caped Avenger has enough options available that he should be able to beat Ogre, but it's not a sure thing.
 
Fight #4 -- If the Caped Avenger falls, then Ultra Guy shows up.  Use Ogre's stats, but he has a Dex of 26, a 6 Speed, an OCV and DCV of 9, and 20" of Flight, as well as a 12D6 Energy Blast and 10" of Knockback Resistance (i.e., he doesn't get knocked backward).  In addition, he has N-Ray vision so he can see through walls.  Ultra Guy should whoop Ogre's butt.  But Ogre has a secret (that he doesn't know -- Ogre is dumb).  This whole rampage was set up by Bald Scientist Man.  Bald Scientist Man is hiding in a nearby dumpster (no game stats needed), and after one turn of combat, he peeks out and fires his Green Kelvarite Ray at Ogre (no game stats needed).  Ogre becomes charged with Green Kelvarite Energy.  Ultra Guy has a Vulnerability to Green Kelvarite, and takes x2 damage from it.  If Ogre can last this long (remember, he doesn't know it's coming, so he shouldn't be dodging around waiting for it to happen), then he'll do double damage every time he punches Ultra Guy.
 
Above all, have fun with it.  That's why we play this game.  And don't worry if you forget something (like skipping somebody's action or forgetting to see if the damage they take exceeds their Con score).  Even very experienced groups forget things virtually every session.  Each of these scenarios gives you a little something to fiddle with and figure out.  You can make it as complex as you want (I always liked knocking people back through buildings), or as simple as you need.  Welcome to the game.

That works especially well against mooks. I’d use this a little against minions and named characters get the full dice rolled.

So my wife of 18 years has finally decided she'd like to try out this weird hobby of mine! I'm talking her through the basics of how RPGs work, this is how you create a character, etc. And she asks "Do you have a couple character sheets for characters I'm already familiar with that I could see for comparison?"
 
That loud smacking sound you heard was me & my forehead. Yes. Yes I do. And no, I don't know why that never occurred to me before!

Grrk.  Sorry but that description makes my brain malfunction.  I would never ever understand that.  I mean, clearly it works for your group, but I've heard of people doing it that way and I just can't wrap my head around it.
 
I think of it the following way:
 
If you roll an 11, you hit a DCV equal to your OCV.  For every point you roll under 11, you hit one better DCV.  For every point you roll higher than 11, you hit one worse DCV.

This really does seem to be a binary thing with Hero gamers: our brains are only capable of holding one method of calculating To Hit. For some people, [Roll = 11+OCV-DCV] makes perfect sense and [11+OCV-Roll=DCV] is completely confusing; for others, it's the other way around. I think the [Roll = 11+OCV-DCV] tends to be more popular among people who've been playing Hero longer (After all, that was the only way to do it until 5ed introduced the "alternate" method.) That was how my brain was wired for 20+ years, and it made perfect sense. Then I tried the [11+OCV-Roll=DCV] method, found it much easier...and now my brain has trouble going back to the old way.
 
I would say I find the [11+OCV-Roll=DCV] method much easier to explain to new players, partly because it's closer to the way To Hit is calculated in most RPGs. To simplify it more: I pre-add the 11+OCV and write that on the character sheet as the "Attack Roll." Then the formula just becomes:
 
Attack Roll +/- any Bonuses/Penalties – 3d6  =  DCV hit
 
It helps that this is essentially the same mechanic used for Skill/Characteristic Rolls, so they really only have to learn one: "Take this number, subtract 3d6, and tell me how much you make/miss it by."

These are all good conversations.  Keep them coming.

This is a great thread, thanks for sharing all of you.
 
I appreciate reading this as a reborn Hero gamer.

This would be GREAT! However (you knew that there would be an however) it wouldn’t be feasible. The reason why is Hero system is designed for YOU to build what you want. So depending what type of game you are playing in what is needed for a well rounded game differs. I probably would require near as many skills. Next GM might require more. Another point is that you can build a perfectly good character based on concept but this being a game may not be as “playable”. I have created some very underwhelming characters like that. Now that isn’t wrong per se.  if that’s what you enjoy go for it. I would still recommend you ask the GM what the guidelines are. For example I’ve built two or three 250 pt (4e) characters that I used the Benchmarks as guides as so ended up with speed 4 and STR 10 and I think a DEX 13 once. They’re fine unless you’re playing Speed 5+, DEX 23 min and STR 20.  

I cannot off the top of my head recall such a resource, though I am sure such exists. Hopefully someone else with more of a clue will chime in. I 'can' describe much of the process I go through.
 
The very first thing I do is to imagine the sort of character I would want to play in the world the GM has created. This has nothing to do with the mechanics or the points, just the general idea, the personality, the basics of backstory, etc.. How would your character defeat a bad guy? How would they avoid being destroyed before they won? How do they get into and out of situations. What do they look like? How do they behave. It is useful to flesh this all out 'before' you actually build the character so you can run it by your GM. Some character ideas simply won't fit with some games. Sometimes an idea you have for how a power might work, your GM will have strong ideas about. Use those ideas.  Likely I will have already decided by this point if my character will be using a multipower or not.
 
With that done, I open Hero Designer (use Hero Designer, best $25. I ever spent), and enter in the most basic information like the name of the character, etc..  I will usually define their primary attack power first. This would involve adding the base and slot costs to a multipower if going that route. In the case of a multipower, add all the multipower powers that are 'crucial' for your character concept now. The last thing you want is to leave that for later and then find you've overspent on everything else and can't afford to get your attack good enough to be effective. If you can't hurt your target, all you are good for in a fight is to be a target yourself.
 
Right after that, I will usually pick the most essential skills for the character, not necessarily all that I might like, just the ones that the character 'should' absolutely have if they are going to be even close to the vision of the original idea. I do this at this stage because I personally have a habit of spending every remaining point after attack is defined, on increasing movement and survivability, and many of my earliest characters (when I was young and beautiful back in the 1980's) hit the game board with zero skills. It is not fair to my character, to the other players, or to the GM's world, to create such a lopsided character. Flesh out your character properly.
 
Next up I will define constitution and defenses, PD/ED, some means of having some resistant defense, maybe mental, power and flash defense, etc.. If I can't or don't bring up defenses sufficiently to weather a standard 12d6 attack, I will know that I better be investing heavily in DCV.
 
It is tempting to blow all remaining points on OCV/DCV. Don't. You won't believe how easy it will be for a mentalist to turn your character into his puppet. How easily a mage can render your awesome tank virtually useless with a cheap intelligence drain, or for the big scary monster to go BOO to send your character fleeing in terror. Buy up some intelligence, ego and presence. High OCV/DCV won't matter one iota versus things like that.
 
Now again, before blowing your wad on OCV/DCV, buy up your movement ability. A high movement is really useful for all characters. You don't necessarily 'need' a high movement, but you absolutely need more than the base running speed.
 
Then and only then buy OCV/DCV (in older versions, buy dexterity). Note that while it is unlikely you will have loads of points left at this point sufficient to pump your OCV/DCV to obscene levels, it is most unlikely if you 'also' have really high defenses. Unlikely but not impossible. Usually GMs will frown on a character that is 'both' hard to hit 'and' hard to hurt. For their peace of mind, don't do this. Remember that GMs have unlimited points to spend and will create whatever opposition is necessary to give you a good game. If your character is substantially harder to hit 'and' hurt than all the other characters, the opponent your GM builds to handle your character will walk all over everyone else. Go for high defenses and a normal DCV or medium defenses and a high DCV. Avoid the temptation to do both.
 
Once you've got everything to fit, look over the character. Is there anything you've forgotten? Any skills and powers your character should have that you have not added yet. Are there a few more skills, perks, talents, etc., that would really help flesh it out? It is very likely that at this point you will be scrounging points, looking to see what you can sell back, what can be lowered in order to free up points for other things. This is also a good time to, if you haven't already, consider if there are any appropriately thematic limitations you can put on things you have bought. Doing this can save a lot of points. Be aware though that you will pay a price in game for those points saved, so only do this sparingly and when it makes perfect sense for your character.
 
During all of the above, I will have kept complications in the back of my mind and already recorded any that seemed obvious. I will now do my darndest to fill out the requisite number of them required by the campaign. If I am stuck for ideas, I will get to work filling out the 'background' section in Hero Designer. I make special effort to write out the character's history well. Usually while writing this all out, other appropriate complications will occur to me. 
 
Once all that is done, you technically have a character. Spend some time looking through image searches for a good picture for your character (if you haven't already picked one), while thinking about what you have built thus far. Tweaking your build at this point is not just possible, but a good idea. Share the build with your GM to get their feedback and approval. I am rarely finished with a character by this point and will continue to tweak right up until the GM says the character is locked. Often GMs will give players a grace period of a couple of full on game sessions to continue to tweak. This is especially useful if you have players who are unfamiliar with Hero System and may have slighted their character somehow by failing to appreciate how necessary some things are.

I disagree. Many of the standard maneuvers are fairly straightforward, both in concept and mechanic (Block, Dodge, Grab, Throw, etc). I expect players will ask how to do them at some point in the demonstration, even if you don't mention them.

Lots of good stuff on simplifying; lots of stuff on not simplifying.
 
Welcome to the boards!
 
My suggestion:
 
Make a list-- a short, simple list-- of what you'd like to learn about combat.
 
My own suggestion:
 
Range modifiers.
"Special" damage
Skill levels.
maneuvers -- I recommend taking those is small groups:  start with Strike and Dodge.  Once you've got that, add two more, then two more, etc.
Endurance Tracking
Hit Locations
 
Seriously:  start just as simple as it sounds:
 
11 + OCV-DCV.
 
Run around; map it out (it helps with Range modifiers, which you'll get to next).
 
Once you are very comfortable with that, add in Range Modifiers.
 
Once your comfortable with that--
 
yeah.  You see the pattern.
 
 
See, here's the thing:   everyone has a "you have to include this or there's no point!" list.  Even me.  
 
Ignore _all_ of it.    Strip down _everything_.  Learn each part one at a time, adding each as you go.  Or _don't_!  Maybe once you're nice and comfy with range mods, drop it completely and go to Endurance tracking _only_.   At any rate, if you focus _only_ on the basics, then focus on the other components _one at a time_, it comes quickly.  You'll have the hang of it in a few hours.
 
Seriously.  I don't know you well enough to make jokes.
 
 
 

You disagree that you could drop manoeuvres?? 😄
 
 
Absolutely they are, and they will add to a combat and players may absolutely ask about dodging or throwing.
 
It might be better to have players asking and being given than to be overwhelmed with everything upfront.
 
However, the OP asked what could be dropped in the interest of making combats faster.  Manoeuvres do not make combat faster, choices don't make combat faster.
 
Doc

I disagree with Indiana Joe about Grab. Grab changes the grabbers CV based on who he’s attacking and who’s attacking him. The same thing with the Grabee. Then there’s the STR vs STR roll.  (Yes this could be simplified too for now). He I would recommend a 4x6 index card with these notes on it for easy reference. Heck I do that for myself.

Uh oh, now you done did it . . . . 

Starting with the very basics, then adding as issues arise is an effective way of learning a game.  It means some page-flipping during the game, and it should be expected that those early sessions may be slow for that reason, but learning the rules while applying them is typically far more effective than just reading the, with no context.

Not about what rules you should skip, but in general, I think running a heroic level game without hit locations is a good way to start.  I think the most daunting task to the new player is powers creation.  Something about the math drives new players off.
 
The best scenario to start in the heroic setting is the bar fight.  Seems to work for any heroic level genre with generally low fatality rates and pretty easy foes to beat up to build confidence.

Bar fight would be great! You can have Normal damage-day a tankard that adds +1D6 to STR. Oh I throw that tankard well that’s say a 2D6 Blast  let’s look at Range. I throw my beer in his face-that’s a Flash attack! He pulls a dagger well now that’s a killing attack.

No, this helps a ton--
 
What you wrote makes sense. I get your point about comparing Attacks to the Skills Roll....
 
I checked out the original Champions as well:
 
"The basic chance to make an attack role is 11 or less. If the character rolls 11 or less on 3d6, [their] attack has hit the target. If the character rolls 12 or more, [their] attack has missed. This Attack Roll varies according to circumstances. There are a number of modifiers to a character's attack roll...." The character modifies their chance to hit by their attacking skill (OCV) less their target's defending skill (DCV) and other modifiers. Wow. Of course. This is well explained, to my mind.
11 + OCV - DCV = 3d6 or less And the related equation makes sense.
 
Then there's this ...
11 + OCV - 3d6 =  DCV you can hit. Hurts my head.
 
I understand how these equations are the same with a bit of algebra. The problem is that written in the altered form, it loses its explainability to me. It's just a formula without any meaning.
 
My new and improved, proposed plan:
 
I explain the Attack Roll exactly as it was explained in Champions v1.
 
Combat flows like this, where OCV = 5, DCV = 7, as an example:
 
I say: What's your OCV, Joe?
Joe: 5 [assume no modifiers applied on his end]
Me: Great. Roll, Joe!
Joe: 9 (with a hopeful tone) ...
Me: You hit her [after doing the math using whatever equation works the best for me]
 
- Versus D&D 5e, this is nearly the same combat experience for the player.
- Versus D&D 5e, the GM needs to do a few seconds of additional work:
Ask Joe his OCV. GM may know what this is without asking in some cases ... GM does a calc that's slightly more complicated than, "Is X greater or equal to Y?" Feasible? A terrible idea? Feedback is welcome.

So, I have a plan!
For me and my brain, the original Champions Attack equation and explanation of the Attack equation is more intuitive than that in in later editions, so I'm going to stick with the original. Thanks, all.

So, I have a plan!
For me and my brain, the original Champions Attack equation and explanation of the Attack equation is more intuitive than that in in later editions, so I'm going to stick with the original. Thanks, all.

So, I have a plan!
For me and my brain, the original Champions Attack equation and explanation of the Attack equation is more intuitive than that in in later editions, so I'm going to stick with the original. Thanks, all.

It's best to think of it like others have suggested: Roll under a Skill (your "Attack Skill" of 11) on 3d6, with OCV acting like Skill Levels and DCV acting like penalties. Roll under that number.
 
In older editions of Champions the formula used to be shown as this: 11 + OCV - DCV = target roll or less. Basically it looks like a Skill Roll. The main problem is that a GM may not want you do know your opponent's DCV, so in later editions they moved things around to keep the DCV secret. I'll show my work in steps like we used to do in math class (I'm trying to remember how to do that now!), not to be condescending, just to make sure you're following (and to check that I'm actually doing it right!):
               11 + OCV - DCV = 3d6 or less
+ (DCV) 11 + OCV - DCV = 3d6 + (DCV)
               - (3d6) 11 + OCV = 3d6 + DCV - (3d6) 
                 11 + OCV - 3d6 =  DCV you can hit
 
Another way to look at it is this: Think of 11+OCV as your Skill Roll, rolled at or under on 3d6. The margin of success ("I made my roll by 5") that you use on some Skill Rolls is equivalent to the DCV you can hit ("I can hit a DCV 5"). Again, the reason why in some games we announce how much we exceeded the roll, especially things like Perception rolls, is because there may be modifiers and stuff the GM is tracking that we don't know about. Easiest solution is to just roll and announce how much we made it by. In combat, that's the DCV we can hit.
 
I hope I didn't just make things worse, or ridiculous with my math. But it was only recently, after more than 30 years of playing, that someone on these forums showed me how combat is actually a Skill Roll! Seriously, it's never really stated in the rules, but as Doc says, it's the same mechanic tacitly built into it. It was a mind-bending moment for me to suddenly see it so clearly after simply missing it for so long!