PhilFleischmann

I think we're getting rather far afield here.  Has anyone actually had their suspension of disbelief spoiled because they didn't have to spend game time replacing a horseshoe?  Horse poop has been mentioned, but what about human poop?  I assume elves and dwarves and orcs and giants and dragons also poop.  Did it spoil your fantasy immersion to not have to deal with these things?  Yes, all this stuff would happen, but that doesn't mean it has to happen "on screen".  It doesn't need to be dealt with in the game session.  Why not?  Because it isn't interesting.  It isn't fun.  Just like all the monetary accounting that old Deendee used to require wasn't interesting or fun - which is part of the reason why I don't play B&D anymore.  And I don't include all those monetary details in my fantasy games, either.  Slaying dragons is fun.  Solving mysteries is fun.  Rescuing fair maidens is fun.  Keeping track of every copper coin I found in the pockets of every orc I've killed is not fun.  Figuring out exactly how many flasks of oil I can buy with the coins I've accumulated is not fun.
 
Do any of you find all these little "realistic" details necessary to deal with in-game?  Does it spoil the immersion if you don't?  Does it ruin the fun if you don't?  Is it OK with you if these things happen "off screen"?
 
Was it fun?  Did the players enjoy it?  Was "immersion" a factor?

I find this sad.  People have become so used to being "hemmed in", that they've forgotten how to be free.  They've been "institutionalized" like Brooks in Shawshank Redemption.  Like the Israelites leaving Egypt, they have to wander in the desert for forty years to shake off the slave mentality.
 
People have been playing role-playing games probably for almost as long as there have been people.  They just didn't have formalized rules until the late 1970's.  Formalized rules are a good thing, so you can have fairness, and don't have to argue about everything ("I got you!"  "No, you missed!").  Unfortunately, formalized rules can also take away the freedom and creativity that you can use when you don't have formalized rules.  So the best situation is a system of formalized rules that preserve the full flexibility of being able to build and do whatever your creativity can come up with.
 
In the case of new role-players who have no interest in reading the rules, and have no desires and goals regarding spending their XP - or how they want their characters to grow - it sounds to me like people who really don't want to play.  Or maybe they just haven't grasped the basic concept of role-playing games.

I find this sad.  People have become so used to being "hemmed in", that they've forgotten how to be free.  They've been "institutionalized" like Brooks in Shawshank Redemption.  Like the Israelites leaving Egypt, they have to wander in the desert for forty years to shake off the slave mentality.
 
People have been playing role-playing games probably for almost as long as there have been people.  They just didn't have formalized rules until the late 1970's.  Formalized rules are a good thing, so you can have fairness, and don't have to argue about everything ("I got you!"  "No, you missed!").  Unfortunately, formalized rules can also take away the freedom and creativity that you can use when you don't have formalized rules.  So the best situation is a system of formalized rules that preserve the full flexibility of being able to build and do whatever your creativity can come up with.
 
In the case of new role-players who have no interest in reading the rules, and have no desires and goals regarding spending their XP - or how they want their characters to grow - it sounds to me like people who really don't want to play.  Or maybe they just haven't grasped the basic concept of role-playing games.

I think you're right. My point is that, as "Realism" is already being taken further in TTRPG than in fiction, why push more into Realism than the game already is structured for. It would be very tedious to write up complications for riding animals that make you roleplay out realistic horse handling (even if you didn't have to write up the complications and instead decided to just roleplay it out), when in almost no genres are those details relevant. My point is, it is neither relevant to the genre nor easily supported by the system. So it's not a matter of "TTRPGs just tend to be more realistic than fiction," when such compunctions don't necessarily originate from the system, and also aren't represented by source material.

OK, I'll play - starting with Doc's summary and rearranging and editing, I get 296 words as follows:
 
The Hero System provides an extremely wide range of options.  The default system strives for cinematic reality, however various options exist to alter the system’s lethality, level of realism, etc.  The role of GMs includes deciding which options will be used and providing players with reasonably detailed guidelines on how to build their characters. 

Hero does not have built-in guidelines (no 1st level wizards) and so it falls to the GM to ensure such context exists ahead of running a game.  While Hero strives for a balanced, “get what you pay for and pay for what you get”, model, the GM must exercise a level of oversight.


Players build their characters in a detailed fashion.  Starting from a default “basic human” set of abilities, players spend character points on their characters’ abilities, skills, physical and mental attributes and a wide range of possible abilities, both for combat and out-of-combat play. 

 
Task resolution in Hero System governed by a 3D6 roll, which determines whether any contest is a success or a failure.  The default for most rolls is to roll 11 or less on 3D6, which can be modified (up or down) based on the character’s abilities, as well as diverse environmental and contextual modifiers.

 
In combat, damage is inflicted against defences.  Damage (and defences) are most often defined as either energy or physical and may inflict both STUN (leading to unconsciousness) and BODY (leading to death) damage. 

 
One unique feature of the system is the Speed characteristic, purchased in character design.  Speed determines how often a character acts in a game turn.  The Speed Chart governs the default order in which characters’ actions will take place. Strategic decisions to delay the character’s actions in relation to those of opponents is a key facet of game play.



I think the crucial inclusions are "you have to do a lot of design work to pick the options most suitable for your game and oversee character builds", "cinematic reality", "get what you pay for and pay for what you get",  "Character build is detailed and diverse options exist", the 3d6 roll, defenses, STUN and BOD.  SPD is nice, but I would sacrifice that detail to get the other concepts across.  The one issue I would consider adding is "mechanics divorced from SFX", but I think this has become more common, albeit not in the D&D world, and is subsumed in "detailed character design".

That's in the APG, Damage Based Endurance Cost. You pay END initially to put it up and pay END based on the damage taken.

Almost every major game these days needs multiple books. Pathfinder, D&D, WoD,  HERO. I can't think of any big name releases out now that don't use a multiple book format. Exalted 3rd ed maybe, but that rulebook is like 900 pages, so that ought to have been multiple books!
 
Even FATE has multiple rule books, Dresden Files was released in two books, my list goes on.
 
There are a few one and dones, but they are all indie releases or oldschool games really. 

That sounds like a fine way to sell movie tickets or adventure novels.  Our primary goal is to get people to play the game.  Those are very different things.  I know a woman who was a big Doctor Who fan (old-school, Don Baker - which was all there was at the time.  She went out and bought the Doctor Who Role-Playing Game from the 1980's because she was intrigued by the setting.  But she never actually played it, because she wasn't necessarily into role-playing, and even to the extent that she might have been, she would have preferred not having to be so restricted by the setting.  She already knew the story of Doctor Who, and it's not any fun to just play out the script that you already know.  If we get a gaming group together, and we all love Doctor Who, and want to play this game, only one of us can be the Doctor.
 
Tolkien's Middle Earth is one of the most popular settings ever, but it's never been all that popular for role-playing games.  A Twilight sparkly-emo-vampire setting might also bring in girls, but I don't know how many will actually play in it more than once, and I don't want to play in it at all.
 
Actually, they do.  As anyone who played D&D prior to, say, 1990, can attest.  Adventures existed in a vacuum.  Many of them.  You play the game, you play the game some more, you enjoy the game, you really get into the game, you play lots of adventures, and only then do you wrap a setting around the adventures - maybe.

I played D&D for years without ever thinking about a "setting" or a "campaign world".  And it was still fun.  All you need is the map of the location where the adventure takes place - the Haunted Ruins of Castle Hufarb, and maybe the village nearby where the players buy their equipment and supplies and meet up in the tavern, and all the people warn them not to go near those ruins, "No one has ever come back!"  And then you need the map for the next adventure, and then the nest one after that.  You really don't need the map of the land between them, where nothing the players care about is happening.  You don't really need to know where Metropolis and Gotham City are, with respect to Chicago and New York, to play the game.
 
Don't get me wrong:  I love world-building, and I enjoy detailed worlds, and I love epic story arcs that tie all (or many) of the adventures together, but they aren't necessary to start playing.

As opposed to the design and logistical nightmare that it is now?  In an active-linked PDF, you almost don't need to worry about the order information is presented in, because you can link directly to another section of the rules when you need to.  Electronic formats allow you to solve those logistical problems.  Hard copy does not.  If a particular rule makes reference to one other rule, then you can put those rules next to each other.  If a rule makes references to multiple other rules, you can't put them all next to each other on a piece of paper, but you can link them together in an electronic format.
 
Y'ever shop online?  Y'ever shop out of a big hard copy catalog?

I see this mostly as a way to curtail jousting from being overly effective.  If you are mounted on horseback, you hold the lance but it's the strength of the horse and its movement you are using.  Basically, you are using the strength of the mount and the rider's accuracy.  I can also see people without mounts running across a battlefield at full tilt having a hard time swing the weapon as you aren't going to be bracing your feet for the momentum compensation of swinging a large weapon.  A smaller weapon, the move through/by wouldn't be as effective as most of the weapons have a damage cap of 2x the base weapon damage.

Like Haymaker, I don't see Move Through (or move by) as limited to tackling. Move Through seems perfect for representing a Charge attack, especially with a spear or similar weapon.
 
I don't see why weapons are less effective. Why do they (almost always) suffer an additional CV penalty and DC penalty. Don't look at someone with max human str, look at someone with the minimum needed to wield the weapons. A soldier with a 12 STR and a medium spear suffers an additional -2 OCV and -2 DC when charging which is...weird? Using the same example above, his Move through would get him back up to the normal spear damage, but he's less likely to hit. There is little reason to bother with the maneuver at the point. 
 
It actually encourages performing Move X's with smaller weapons, not larger ones. Which again, seems really weird. 
 

Looking at the actual rules (6e Vol 2 p 70):
 
For Move By
 


 
This makes sense to me, given that STR used in a Move By is also halved.  Why should that limitation of the maneuver be reduced because you are using a weapon?
 
Let's consider:
 
Brawny Bob has STR 20, and runs at 15 meters.  He would do a Move By for [4d6/2 =] 2d6 + [15/10 =] 1 1/2 d6 = 3 1/2d6
 
Sam Swordsman has STR 20, and a Longsword, and runs at 15 meters.  His STR is halved due to a Move By, so he has only 10 STR, 2 short of the STR MIN.   He will suffer a -1 OCV penalty and -1 DC.  He would do a Move By for 3 DC (the Longsword's DC reduced  by 1) + [15/10 =] 1.5 DCs, so 4 DCs 1d6+1 KA (no way to account for that other half DC in there somewhere).
 
Bob would have punched for 4d6 and Sam would slash for 1 1/2d6.  Sam is losing 1 OCV, both Sam and Bob are down 1 DC, and Sam takes no damage (his weapon is not likely to be damaged either).
 
For Move Through, p 72
 


 
OK, that is different.  Let's see how it plays out.
 
Brawny Bob has STR 20, and runs at 15 meters.  He would do a Move Through for 4d6 + [15/6 =] 2 1/2 d6 = 6 1/2d6
 
Sam Swordsman has STR 20, and a Longsword, and runs at 15 meters.  His STR is halved due to a Move By, so he has only 10 STR, 2 short of the STR MIN.   He will suffer a -1 OCV penalty and -1 DC.  He would do a Move Through for 3 DC (the Longsword's DC reduced  by 1) + [15/6 =] 2.5 DCs, so 5 DCs 1 1/2d6 KA (I'd let him have 2d6-1 since he should get another half DC in there somewhere).
 
Bob would have punched for 4d6 and Sam would slash for 1 1/2d6.  Seems like Bob is getting the better deal from the Movethrough, although Sam still takes no damage, and I doubt his sword will, at least in most cases.
 
It's tougher to tackle someone with a weapon, so it does not seem conceptually unreasonable.  The result also seems reasonably balanced.
 

Characters and NPC's use INT Rolls to make memory checks. So first I'd ask the GM to make a chart with the modifiers of things that would effect that roll. For example, a one on one conversation gives +3 to check, no communication and in a crowd gives -3 to check, making a "scene" gives +2, every two steps down the time chart is a -1, etc... And NPC's will remember major and minor events they are part of (that they went to that party) but they might forget details about who was there, who they saw, etc... In real life this can happen a lot, especially under stressful events, witness to crimes often have very different descriptions of the perpetrator of the crime, even if it happened just a few minutes ago. 
 
After the chart is made and base rules agreed on, then a build like this might work:
 
 Forgettable:  Change Environment (-5 to INT Roll, Long-Lasting Permanent), Area Of Effect (10m Radius; +3/4) (54 Active Points); Only vs A NPC's check to remember details of the Player (-2), No Range (-1/2)) RC:15
 
Players has to activate the ability, for 5 END, but after that the effect is permanent. Everyone within 10m of him for the duration he is using the ability, will after that and forever have a -5 to INT rolls to remember details of the character. Again, NPC's will remember events happened. If the Player stands on a table and shoots a someone the NPC will obviously remember that event forever, but this ability means he/she will have a hard time remembering any important details of the character or identifying him later. If the Player has a distinctive feature disadvantage, the NPC will always remember that feature, but might not remember any other specific details. 
 
Note: this is built saying an NPC's check, meaning it only effects sentient characters, and does not work against cameras and the like. 

My favored style of FH play is "low heroic" (see the link in my signature below for details), primarily Skill-based characters, with pointwise-free equipment, and Powers outside of that generally limited to being used to replicate magic.  In that style of play, characters don't get more powerful than superheroes.  
 

Having dealt previously with Turakian Dwarves, I'd now like to look at the potential in the setting's version of another "generic" fantasy staple, Elves. (You may want to avert your eyes, Duke.)   In a number of ways Turakian Elves fit the Tolkien-inspired, Dungeons and Dragons pattern common to many fantasy worlds. But in other areas they carry more distinctive elements of character and plot, both generally and in relation to specific regions where they dwell.
 
(I also previously posted to this thread my suggestions for raising the "footprint" of Elves in Ambrethel, making them a more prominent presence in the world, by adding kingdoms or expanding them. Those posts can be read
here and here.)
 
Nolgroth already mentioned elsewhere on the thread that Elven society is divided into twelve "clans," which he rightly characterized as more like castes, in that they're hereditary groups whose members have been traditionally assigned specific tasks and professions, and who are considered to frequently manifest particular personality traits. These are described on TA pp. 35-36. That text also asserts that the Elves themselves don't take those categorizations too seriously, and that members of one clan may take on whatever pastime or calling they choose. But it struck me as having plot and character potential if some Elven "fundamentalist" regime decided to impose clan definitions and restrictions rigidly; or if Elven revolutionaries pressed to abolish them altogether -- particularly tricky in that one clan makes up the traditional ruling nobility.
 
P. 36 also notes that Elven society is traditionally patrilinear, e.g. women who marry outside of their clan become members of their husband's clan; but "women tend to have much more power and responsibility in society than females in the realms of Men." Moreover, p. 170 asserts that among Elves, "women have the same status as men in all legal respects." As with the clan example, there's potential for specific communities of Elves to try to impose more restrictions on women, or to abolish patrilinearity or even establish a female-dominant regime (in either case, perhaps inspired by examples of neighboring realms of Men).
 
Elves live mostly in temperate forests; their largest realms, Elvenholme and Shularahaleen, are primarily vast forests. The capital of Elvenholme is the stereotypical "tree city," built in and around enormous trees. However, "some Elves prefer to live by the seaside, in the mountains, or among Men in cities."  They may dwell "in elaborate tree houses... houses like the cottages of Men, palaces and towers of elvenstone... caves (usually ornately sculpted), or in no dwelling at all." (p. 36) The minority variations in dwelling may be much more common in certain Elven communities. For example, the kingdom of the Elrune Islands (and the coastal expansion to it I suggested on a previous post) likely has many people living near the water. The Nevarro Jungle in Mhorecia (p. 97) is described as a "cloud forest," a feature of some tropical mountain regions subject to heavy rainfall; the Elves noted as dwelling there likely spend much time in mountain caves.
 
The territory of the Elves of Shularahaleen probably feature most of those variations: it's mainly a huge forest, "the Shadowwoods," but it has a very long coastline, and its southern regions abut the Thraysha Mountains. It also appears more urban than other Elven lands, with three cities named on the map on p. 138. Two of those cities are in the non-forested southern part of Shularahaleen, which I suggested on one of my linked posts could be made into a separate trade-based kingdom. While the inhabitants of Shularahaleen are described as generally xenophobic, that separate kingdom would probably be a place where Elves mingled freely with other races.
 
The Chekuru Jungle in Vornakkia, third-largest jungle of Ambrethel, is described as "trackless" and "a merciless place of sweltering heat" which holds many dangers natural and unnatural, such that few Men dare enter it. However, "some groups of Elves" do inhabit it. (See pp. 109-110.)  It strikes me that this sounds like a particularly good point of origin for "barbarian" Elf characters, for those who'd like Elves with that flavor of culture and attitude. Similar Elf communities could be inserted into other isolated wildernesses on the maps of Ambrethel. (There's a lot of adventure potential in the Chekuru Jungle, probably worth a post of its own.)
 
The attitude of the Shularahaleen Elves, and what I proposed for their "offshoot" kingdom, represent the spectrum of possibilities inherent in the setting for their race's interactions with Men. In some realms the bonds between the races appear quite close. For example, the demographics for the human-dominated Mhendarian Palatinate (p. 52) shows an exceptionally large Elf minority, 14% of the total populace -- probably due to the long border the kingdom shares with Elvenholme. Such a land would also be a more likely source for the "Half-Elf" human-Elf hybrid, which is also an official part of this setting.
 
The human realm of Teretheim completely surrounds the Altenwoods, which the Elves inhabiting that forest consider their own kingdom. But they also acknowledge the overlordship of the High King of Teretheim. (See p. 155.)  I find that dynamic intriguing, in that Teretheim is divided into several hereditary "kingdoms" whose kings meet to choose a High King to rule over them. I have to ask whether the Altenwoods is considered one of those kingdoms, and participates in the selection of the High King? If so, has an Elf ever been chosen for that office? Since a High King typically rules until death, how would the Men of Teretheim react to a ruler with such a vast lifespan? If no Elf has ever been chosen, is there resentment and discontent in the Altenwoods over that situation?
 
The Elves dwelling in the Nevarro Jungle are allied with the Men of Temirec, and there's mutual attraction between the young king of Temirec and the daughter of the Elves' leader. The text raises the question of how the Temirese would react to an Elf queen. (See p. 97.) Since numerous Temirese nobles aspire to an advantageous marriage to the king for their own houses, and Temirese politics is especially, literally cutthroat, the situation is rife with interesting possibilities.
 
At the other end of the spectrum of Elf-Man relations, the Elves of Melurashondar's Retreat in Vashkhor (p. 103) would have good reason to be as xenophobic as those from Shularahaleen, if not more so. Persecuted by Vashkhoran religious extremists, they entrenched themselves in a large forest and have resisted repeated attempts by the Vashkhorans to drive them out. After more than 1,100 years of permanent siege, there can't be many of that first generation of refugees left. The majority will have grown up knowing no other state.
 
Anyone who succeeded in displacing or destroying those Elves would likely earn the gratitude of the Hierakte of the Empire of Vashkhor, which could be extremely beneficial to them. But it may be more heroic to help defend the Elves from Vashkhoran attack.   Perhaps heroes might find a peaceful way to end the conflict, e.g. persuade the Elves to convert to Hargeshism, which has ended conflicts with Vashkhor in the past; or arrange safe passage for all of them out of Vashkhor. OTOH the heroes might try to sneak the Elves out of the Empire, and/or fight their way out.
 
There are a couple of other significant elements related to Turakian Elves that I want to explore; but as they include some of the deepest Elven GM secrets and biggest spoilers, I'll put them into a separate post with prominent warning.

The Normal Characteristics Maxima Disadantage should be limited to Superhero Level characters, 200 Points and up, since they actually have the points to far exceed those levels and other characters who don't take it would have a major advantage.

That's an absurd strawman. 

My POV: How do the characteristic caps hinder the character compared to a character with the same statline but no caps?  If the answer is "They don't", they're not worth anything. 

Writer, transcriber and calligrapher. Someone who writes letters, notes, maybe even short books, etc... for those who are illiterate but still need to send letters or want to get information out. 
 
and by necessity, a “reader”. Someone you could hire to read the letters you receive if you are not able to read. 
 
Probably both not an Oddmonger area business specifically, but there would probably be one or two shops of each available in the zone, as chances are a lot more people in the Oddmonger area are illiterate compared to some of the richer and more successful guild areas in the city. 
 
adventure plot seed I just thought of:
 
poor, illiterate farmer receives a letter from long estranged family member. Can’t read it so hires a reader to read it to him. Is actually a will or notice that he has inherited a lot of money/land/whatnot. Reader lies to farmer and goes to collect/get money (or whatever) himself. Players discover the con/fraud and must Stop reader and get the poor farmer what he is due and make his life better. 

Re: Elves and half-breed "races":
 
I don't think it's intrinsically a bad idea for That Fantasy RPG to provide many varieties of elves, if they are presented as options to help you customize your world. After all, elves have been presented many different ways in Fantasy fiction, as they have been in folklore. Do you want your elves to be elusive forest-folk? Haughty lords of magic? Sinister twilight folk? Here's a variety of elf. But trying to fit all of them in one setting risks feeling cluttered. D&D 5th ed. does a good thing in calling out some PC races as options not every DM might want, but it could do better at stressing that all the variations form a toolkit from which DMs pick what they want.
 
As for halfbreeds, I too saw this as a can of worms I didn't want to open. If half-elves and half-orcs, why not half-dwarves? Half-halflings? Could somebody be half elf, half dwarf? So I let my players know there are no half--anythings. The Five Peoples (humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs) are all interfertile to some degree (though offspring might be sterile mules), but in game terms they use one template or the other.
 
Dean Shomshak

Just as a general note, I don't find this a compelling reason not to suggest the most obvious and simplest build.  He didn't want to use Images because he didn't realize that he could use Indirect with his powers so that Images was indeed the exact power he needed.  What if someone posted, "I want my character to be able to pick up heavy things with his muscles, but I don't want to use Strength."?
 
In this case, Images + Indirect on the powers specified is the simplest solution.  You get a limitation on the Images for "Only to create images of the character," and another for "Each one vanishes if touched."  You might also get a -1/4 for limited Range.  Duplication and Summon are much more complicated, and probably more expensive.  Duplicates and Summonees need character sheets.  Duplication needs a way to get them back after they're killed.  And Summon needs "Slavishly Loyal".  And the summonees need to be able to receive and follow orders - probably Telepathically or with Mind Link, otherwise:  "Which one is real?"  "The one giving the orders to the others, obviously."

4th Edition Champions had some of the best covers of the game IMHO. I don't think photoreal covers will draw in any more people than having comic book artists on a cover.  

Wow, someone else who's read Pile! <Offers the secret handshake of the initiated>
 
Dean Shomshak

Musical Instrument Makers - There might even be enough of these guys to form a guild, but they don't, because different types of instruments involve very different materials and skills.  The horn-makers, woodwind makers, drum-makers, and stringed-instrument makers have little in common.
 
Embroiderers - people who don't make clothing, but can add a person's name or insignia to an item of clothing.
 
If alchemists have a small guild, there might be others for various specialized magical crafts:  Wand Makers, Fortune Tellers, makers of "good luck charms" or items that offer some magical protection, maybe even "material component makers".
 
Game Makers - makers of playing cards, dice, et al.  Where do the gamblers get the stuff to gamble with?
 
There could possibly be some makers of high-quality items that many people make for themselves.  For example:  You can pluck a feather and make a writing quill yourself, but there might be a craftsman who has the skill to make really good ones that are fancy and last a long time.
 
Is it just crafted goods?  Or might there be some specialized services offered?