AlgaeNymph

On 8/18/2021 at 4:15 PM, unclevlad said:

This is near-infinite power...which means near-infinite responsibility.  And therefore...burden.

On 8/17/2021 at 8:58 AM, Greywind said:

"They wanted a piece of me, Pa. They all wanted a piece of me..."

Looks like a very good reason to keep oneself, and the full extent of their powers, hidden...

7 hours ago, Soleil Noir said:

That part rings extremely hollow to me; what the gem-wielder has isn't companionship, it's just a very shallow and masturbatory projection of his own psyche

Oh, you mean real companionship rather than the term in the euphemistic sense.  Oh yeah, that's something a Cosmic Gem can't magic up.  ^_^;

7 hours ago, Soleil Noir said:

Maybe the character's own subconscious could start working against him, using the gem to manifest his own self-doubt or self-loathing

Maybe?  That's certainly a good story idea.

7 hours ago, Soleil Noir said:

Maybe the adversary creates a second, heroic persona (or aids some flunky in a colorful suit, to make him look the part of the hero), so the PC can see what real adulation and affection look like as the city takes to the new hero on the block.

Easy solution for that: don't seek fame.  ; )

49 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Threaten to expose them for the fake they are. Show how they've been using counterfeit wealth and Illusions to cover their lack of any real possessions.

Now I'm confused.  Why would luxuries need to be "real?"  For that matter, why would the hero show them off outside of a disposable false ID?  Or often enough to be an issue?

7 hours ago, Soleil Noir said:

Maybe the adversary works to turn public opinion against the hero

This one, however, doesn't have an easy solution, and will be inevitable when a hero gets proactive.

7 hours ago, Soleil Noir said:

Or maybe you'd consider some scenario where the PC is unexpectedly cut off from his wish fulfillment gemstone

I wouldn't say unexpectedly; even when an artifact of power -- or any power -- doesn't have the Focus discount the hero's gonna get cut off from it sooner or later.  That too would also make an interesting story!  And something to prepare for: heroes should always make sure they have something besides their powers.  That's just good practice.

4 hours ago, foolishvictor said:

It might be very difficult for someone who is almost omnipotent to find genuine mutual attraction with someone who is emotionally compatible but unable to understand the feelings and problems that the omnipotent character feels. 

Good stuff!  I'm reminded of With This Ring (please forgive me) where OL is told, essentially "I don't know how to feel about a boyfriend who says he'd do anything for me and actually can."

But seriously, I do remember hearing more than once that relationship troubles start when the partners aren't equal.

4 hours ago, foolishvictor said:

My only point is that some people might find love easily but others really struggle.

Ooo...  Yeah, I think I hit a nerve there.  And admittedly, I only found love by accident.  Trust me, I'd never dismiss someone with "work hard and think positive!"  Gah!  >_<

On 8/12/2021 at 2:38 PM, Tjack said:

Money and luxury?   Stop thinking so small.

That's what I'd say to someone who offered me such.  : p

On 8/12/2021 at 2:38 PM, Tjack said:

You said “Companionship”.  What about love?  Freely given from someone not controlled by the Gem.  What about knowledge?  The secrets of the universe laid at your feet.  Or possibly the cure for a disease that’s slowly killing a loved one.  
How about the chance to go back in time and NOT make that one mistake that haunts your nights and keeps you from sleep.  Maybe youth and health restored and a chance to do it all over again, but knowing now what you didn’t know then?

• Love's simple: make friends with someone who shares your interests and is comforting to talk with.  I even got that in the real world, much to my surprise.  : )
• Knowledge is another good one, but one I needn't hurry for unless I need it now.  Do VPP's grant skills?
• Disease cures are covered by Transform.  Of course, this has the kind of societal implications that'd make for great drama, especially if the super wants to do something else with their time.
• Time-travel is Extra-Dimensional movement.  In addition to aforementioned implications -- i.e., what if you could stop a famous atrocity -- this raises the question of why someone else hasn't.
• Biological immortality is an inexpensive Life Support, but one I'd have to pay points for if I don't wanna tie up VPP points.  Would definitely require a scientific quest, which is another great story.

On 8/12/2021 at 2:51 PM, Lord Liaden said:

[G]ive the character a chance to strive for something beyond what he normally could achieve, something with a noble goal but through reprehensible means.

Well of course, though the idea I have in that regard is less about giving in to temptation and more getting fed up with the lack of positive change and eventually becoming an agent of the V'hanian Empire.  Can't make things worse unless you're the sort of person who thinks Dubai is awesome or the Spartans were the good guys...

19 hours ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

[I]f they can have anything they want easily with their powers, then everything is cheap.  Using their powers to get anything is 'cheating' and what they will value is something genuine.  Sincere love would be at the top of the list, rather than pandering sycophants who just was a share of the power and wealth.  True respect from those around them rather than fawning or fear.

Oh, very much.  It's a conclusion I reached in an ongoing informal role-play with my sweetheart, where by becoming a tech-scavenging world-jumper I built me a lair that'd be the envy of most supervillains.  And no idea what to do with it.  Very much puts life into big-picture perspective.  😌

...Honestly, I was asking this to figure out what a lusty demon could possibly tempt me with.  But then, it is very much in-genre to wax philosophical.  ; )

Suppose you have a hypothetical superhero, call them Cintamani for the Cosmic Gem they have.  With it they can make just about whatever they want.  Wealth?  With creativity and skill (and Skills) they can cut out the middleman make what they want wealth for directly with a Transform.  Companionship?  They can use Summon to make simulacra for that as well.  Luxury?  See previous, put Images for that full immersion VR experience.  And so on.

Then some villain wants to tempt them away from righteousness.  What could they possibly offer that our hero couldn't make themself?

On 8/6/2021 at 9:47 AM, DShomshak said:

Well, I gave Aratron, the Demon of Saturn, "Relentless in Pursuit and Attack" (Very Common, Strong). Like old age and death, Aratron is not distracted, dissuaded or turned aside.

And Hagith?  For...reasons.

On 8/4/2021 at 12:10 PM, Scott Ruggels said:

What is the term for the mental illness where, you are the only person in the universe, and everyone else is there to serve them?

Narcissistic personality disorder.  Such "people" idealize and idolize those in power, if not seeking to be one themselves then living vicariously through them.  They have the charm to build a cult of personality around themselves and their delusions, but become nasty the moment someone pokes holes in their illogic.  And foremost; they are the most sanctimonious hypocrites you've ever met!  In short, they're either bullies or the bully's little pals.

On 8/4/2021 at 6:23 PM, DShomshak said:

I think LoneWolf gave an excellent description of what demonic evil would feel like from the inside.

And I do as well.  In fact, it sort of reminds me of how the Nephandi are described in Book of the Fallen for Mage: the Ascension.

And while I'm talking about other RPGs, Ars Magica has Realms Of Power - The Infernal.  While through an Abrahamic lens, it gives a usefully thorough breakdown of a demon's psychology, though less about how they're evil so much as lacking virtue.  This results in them all being petty megalomaniacs with grandiose plans that fall apart due to poor impulse control.  They fight as a first resort, backstab at the first opportunity, flee at the slightest sign of trouble, and never learn from their mistakes.  Kinda reminds me of your stereotypical supervillain.  ; )

On 8/4/2021 at 6:23 PM, DShomshak said:

It's why I don't use "Evil" as a Psych Lim. It's too vague. I try to give something more specific, such as Megalomania, Sadistic, Treacherous, Vindictive, or the like.

If I may go on a bit of a tangent, related to my previous thread, what would you give the Seven Planetary Demons?

One of the complications demons have is Utterly Evil.  (This puts a damper on my fantasies of being captured, but I quite digress.)  But what does that mean?  How does that manifest in an NPC's actions?  The best I have are the sorts you'd see on 8chan and LinkedIn.  Does anyone with more relevant specialized knowledge have any better ideas?

Specifically, I'm speaking of the patrons of Astralle (Champions Villains 2; p.182-185).  Are they greater demons (Bestiary; p.72, 77) or demon princes (Bestiary, p.90-97)?  Or something else?

And yes, I want something more substantial than "whatever you need for your game."  : p

Honestly, I just picked Universal Rejection because I like stories involving V'han.  They're all good ideas, though.  : )

On 4/30/2021 at 10:15 AM, DShomshak said:

Well, now I know why I never paid much attention to Eurostar. There's just nothing here that interests me.

I know, right?  They were a relic of 4e brought into 5e because Champions needed a dangerously practical villain team, and Eurostar was selected to fill that niche.

On 5/1/2021 at 10:35 AM, DShomshak said:

Also, one of my writing teachers suggested this exercise: Take some viewpoint you agree with, and write it into the mouth of someone you find horrible.

In that case Istvatha V'han would be a better fit for that niche, especially since she has a good track record.  Though I still don't know why she's aiding Eurostar, or how.

3 hours ago, steriaca said:

Any thoughts about an "Euroguard" organization to counter Eurostar?

Oo!  Very well-developed, or at least more so than the villains they were made to fight.

As for my views on Eurostar, they'd be best fo a campaign set in the 00's where they're on their way down.  I really can't see how evil EU terrorists can be narratively relevant in this day and age.

4 hours ago, Terminax said:

I shared Eurostar's backstory with several European friends (Dutch, French, German, Polish and Spanish) and they were all pretty much of the opinion "These must be the creation of an American, with no understanding at all about Europe except to make insulting stereotypes and give them the thinnest of backgrounds." so I couldn't get them to give me any input on how to flesh them out better.

Hm?  What stereotypes?  If they mean violent extremism then how is that particularly European?

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

To flesh out Eurostar I would start with the personalities and motivations of the individual members, particularly Fiacho.

Fiacho seemed to be vaguely utopian before he went evil.  Scorpia was with the IRA, but only seemed to care about hurting people.  Ultrasonique sees "Them" as out to get him but nothing more specific than that.  None of the others seem especially political, or else they would've been acting for a cause on their own already.

Fiacho's main goal is a united, and ideally preeminent, Europe, so he'll likely be against nationalist movements.  And if I may go on a tangent, this raises an interesting question as to why Istvatha V'han, who's all about preserving cultural identities, would be secretly backing him (Book of the Empress, p.184).  Or how, given that Eurostar seems to be just a small group of jerks.

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Nope, still not getting it. Eurostar does not demand a billion dollars or they blow up a bridge with everyone on it. Eurostar blows up the bridge. Then claims responsibility. The critic of Eurostar does not get to apologize or else a loved one is tortured on public broadcast. The loved one is tortured.

O...kay?

While Eurostar can quite easily do things the boring-but-practical way, wouldn't an alleged choice get more horror out of their terrorism?  By giving the targeted politician a lose-lose option they probably won cede to anyway, Eurostar does what it was going to do anyway and makes the politician look bad, delegitimizing them.  Or maybe I put too much thought into sadism?

Also...are you okay?  You've seemed peculiarly insistent throughout this thread, and I think it hit a nerve.  Sorry if I upset you.  Perhaps we could get one of the devs to clear up any confusion?

On 4/22/2021 at 7:24 PM, drunkonduty said:

Umm... the following touches heavily on real world politics, so, um, let me know if you want it removed.

You asking me?  By all means, get political!  Kinda the whole point of Eurostar.

13 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

You need to stop thinking of them, especially Fiacho, as criminals trying to score as much personal profit as they can. Fiacho is a fanatic and the whole crew are psychopaths.

I suppose they are more about that than a united Europe.  I recall Confucius saying to judge a person's character by their associates.  Istvatha V'han's closest are principled patriots and rehabilitated rebels.  Dr. Destroyer has brainwashed mercenaries who aren't sadistic so much as selfish.  With Eurostar they're all just plain jerks.

Which gets me thinking about an idea I had: a sadistic choice that's also a forced show of character.  Some examples: 

• Eurostar threatens to destroy a famous bridge in London during rush hour if they don't get a billion of whatever currency.  When a politician boldly proclaims, from safety, that "we don't negotiate with terrorists," possibly cribbing from Churchill or Henry V for good measure, Eurostar tells them they can either choose which bridge gets destroyed or else they'll wreck both.  Sure, the powers that be can redirect traffic and post guards, but for how long?  Eurostar didn't give a date.  And when people forget about it they strike.
• If their demands are not met, Eurostar will attack a prominent Muslim community center in Europe on a Friday.  They leave this to linger so as to wear down resources, build up resentment among bigots for Muslims getting "special treatment," and get into position to attack.  Eurostar then strikes a place the could have been defended by a wealthy enough country but wasn't.  "It's Eurostar's fault" will ring hollow to a community that knows they were left to die.  The possibility of gaining right-wing sympathizers is just frosting.
• An outspoken critic of Eurostar is ordered to give a thorough and humiliating public apology -- or else somebody is thoroughly tortured, and their ordeal publicly broadcast.  It could be a loved one, it could be a random street person; whatever Eurostar thinks will force their critic into the most life-destroying decision.  Failure to comply means Eurostar makes good on their word, with attempts to track down the broadcast only leading to a gruesomely mutilated body and a message to the effect of "you didn't care about me!"  The real victim will be sold off to traffickers.

If Eurostar gets their demands met then that's just fine.  But if not then they force an enemy to be an active participant in their evil.

We know that Eurostar are the dangerously competent villains who brag about wrecking economies, but how do they work towards their goals?  What do they ultimately need for endgame success?  How do they support their projects?  What do they prefer to target?  How do they fight that's so different from everybody else?  Questions like that and more.  Might even help me figure out how other practical villains (or heroes) might work as well.

I've been giving this some thought, and if I may answer my own question I'd like to list some common elements I've observed.

• Foremost, fairy tale magic has to advance the story.  For example, teleporting oneself to a christening to bestow a curse, but not to reposition oneself during combat.
• Spells are flashy one-off sort of things.  Fairy tale magic is less of a toolkit and more a set of narrative devices; thus, a generalist spellcaster isn't going to be utilitarian with their repertoire.
• Anything permanent has a high price, fatal flaw, or escape clause. There could be sociocultural reasons, but I suspect it's more an expedient to give Random Peasant Hero a fighting chance.
• It can't fight God or Fate, because fairy tales are very much a product of their times.  Though that raises the question of how the magic changes when the times do...
• Any exceptions to the rules is almost entirely to enhance the aesthetic of the setting, but not to the point of mundane utility.  A remote ice palace is quite doable, but ubiquitous refrigeration no so much.

Fairy tale magic, as I understand it, is Romanticism made physically manifest.

One of foremost powers of Brangomar, the Shadow Queen is "fairy tale-style" magic.  All well and good but what does that even mean?  Yes, I know it denotes a particular flavor and set of limitations but I'm afraid I'm not literate enough to know what those are presently.  Might somebody be informed enough to know?

On 4/14/2021 at 4:33 PM, Opal said:

IDK why you linked the TV Tropes 'Bomb-throwing Anarchist'

Because I'm really good at seeing connections based on my broad knowledge.  Bomb-thrower + activist = stereotypes of anarchists.  Admittedly, my talent can result in false positives...

On 4/14/2021 at 3:10 PM, archer said:

Or if you were some kind of Harbinger of Justice, you could shoot someone on the off chance that the might commit a crime at some point in the future (or shoot some husband on the off chance that he might someday abuse his spouse).

Only if I knew they were irredeemable, and a good dark champion would do their twenty minutes of prep time first.  For the redeemable ones I'd focus on either therapy -- e.g., changing their means while validating their ends -- or harm reduction -- i.e., getting them to work for me.  Good talent is hard to come by.

On 4/14/2021 at 3:28 PM, Jhamin said:

I think the real issue with this sort of thing is that if Stark brand ARC Reactors put OPEC out of business there would be a LOT of knock-of effects and most comic book creators don't want to deal with that.

Good thing we're not confined to the comic industry sausage factory.  ; )

On 4/14/2021 at 6:29 PM, pawsplay said:

Superheroes are shamans. They adopt a special role, often using a special name, maybe with an animal theme. Their purpose is to protect their communities from supernatural beings. In their mode of dress and behavior, they stand apart from ordinary people.

Oo!  Now that's a different take, and makes so much sense...

Sure have a lot to respond to...

Let's get to it.

1 hour ago, Lorehunter said:

So Algae, after rereading your op I am confused. Are you looking for insight as to :

1. Why does this trope (warrior elite becoming corrupt because of being elite) exists?
2. How can we change this trope (elite not becoming corrupt or arch-types other than warrior becoming elite)?
3. How come there are not similar tropes for other arch-types?

I was pretty much just musing, though I wouldn't mind having those questions answered.

On 4/13/2021 at 2:16 PM, Tjack said:

Are you more interested in nuts & bolts ways to deal with this in books and games or in a more philosophical discussion of the trait in storylines?

Both, but people here have very much taken the initiative on the latter.

21 hours ago, Opal said:

Penelope's maintenance of Ithaca's independence, in spite of a hoard of bullying suitors who would take her husband's place is an important part of the Odyssey, so there's a hearth-tender, too (oh, and another crafter - Trick of the Tapestry, remember).

As someone dating a Penelope it's always good to see her mentioned.  : )

And the rest of your points I can't really argue against -- except the crafter.  Sort of.  We see stories about gadgeteers being superheroes but not building great works.  We see Tony Stark fighting terrorists with a super-suit, but not fighting OPEC with clean energy.

21 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

One of the interesting things about the superhero genre is that, for the most part, superheroes do not see themselves as elite. Being born as a concept from a country and society with a democratic ideal (let's leave aside how often reality falls short of that ideal), they treat less gifted people with equal respect. That respect also includes the societal norms, the system of law and government, that all other citizens submit to.

Mm-hm, no denying that.  That's what the article I linked to was getting at when referring to soldiers.  To be fair, he was responding to a hack who felt we should embrace a "warrior culture," while ignoring historical examples of such.  Still, I suspect a lot of young comics fans would be all for a warrior culture...

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Modern comic book (and film) writers don't get this: they think it's about defending the powerless and bringing social justice, because they think everything is about that.

Oh?  Besides the obvious example of Green Arrow, from before "kids these days" were born, I've got a long list.  While Batman told his aforementioned friend that giant monsters tend to step on the little guy, he also dealt with corporate malfeasance quite often, and not just in Heart of Ice.  Riddler's debut in Batman TAS dealt with corruption in the games industry back when we thought crunch time was only something the Japanese did back when we felt they'd buy out the US (or at least the manufacturing sector).  The whole point of the X-Men was social justice.  Superman tackled social injustice back when he was starting out.  Not to mention that his main foes are a corrupt corporate executive and a literal god of tyranny.  He even broke the fourth wall to fight for truth and social justice.  And of course, superheroes came of age in WWII back when we were fighting scarier monsters than the kaiju kind.  A shame that punching Nazis is "politics in my entertainment!"  Say...Cap didn't really take Watergate well, did he?

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Spider-Man cannot stop The Green Goblin and turn him over to the police, if the Attorney General is just going to set him free because he was only helping BLM protesters out.

And now "bleeding heart liberal judges"?  Think about the logical conclusion of the words you used; that BLM is the sort of group a bomb-throwing lunatic would want to sponsor.  Now that I think about it, that's another unfortunate implication...

sigh...

So much for this thread being civil.  Though that one's on me; I just had to speak out.

When I asked how superheroes could be proactive a lot of the replies I got were outright fearful of such a thing.  Logical given genre conventions, where anyone who isn't an aimless vigilante becomes a brutal authoritarian, but why is such a trope part of the narrative paradigm?  I suspect the answer is historical precedent.

Like the title says, superheroes are technically a warrior elite, which means more than easily defeating mere mortals.  Being a warrior is a lifestyle, one that separates warriors from everyone else to the point we start using terms like "mere mortals."  As a result warrior elites tend to get, well, elitist.  Not something you want from a government leader, especially when there's precedent for a warrior culture to become ur-fascist.  Indeed, superheroes in fiction are for the most part essentially cops and soldiers, maybe firefighters on a good day.  Since supers are universally considered to be little more than face-punchers at even the best of times it's only logical we'd consider their proactivity to thus follow.

So what's the solution?  In contrast to warriors are soldiers, or people who see fighting as a job rather than an identity, who think of themselves as public servants rather than moral superiors.  Still, the media will most likely focus on celebrity demigods more than talented entrepreneurs without a fundamental change in culture; superheroes have been universally revered through history, but how often do epics pay heed to crafters, healers, and hearth-tenders?  Then again, the storytellers did compose at the behest of the aforementioned warrior aristocracy...

I'm probably the only person here that hasn't watched Civil War so I don't have a horse in this race.  ^_^;

On 2/26/2021 at 1:21 PM, csyphrett said:

Since Superman is the most proactive hero in most of the media he is in, he should probably be your role model: Disaster relief, urban renewal, humanitarian efforts, scientific accomplishments, bring corruption to light.

What an excellent idea...

On 2/25/2021 at 7:53 AM, csyphrett said:

What do your players want? you're wasting your time if you think you can build the Authority when your players are all in on Legion of Substitute Heroes

CES  

3 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

Did you ask your players what they want?

Well...I don't have any players.  😅

Now if I had players then doing what they'd want would be the easy, common sense solution.  However, this is pretty much a thought exercise for me.  Sorry about the misunderstanding.

9 hours ago, DShomshak said:

As someone who's written adventure seeds for publication, I can tell you there's a very simple reason why they are written this way: As writers, we only know what the villains and other NPCs want. We know nothing about the PCs or what they want, so we can only offer situations to which they may react.

I know, I know...

Though you could've at least had one involving Morph becoming her old, non-evil self.  And I know you wrote her up because "décolletage" is not a common word.  😜

17 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Problems arise when the heroes try to subvert or supplant the existing order with something "better," like the Squadron Supreme, the Justice Lords, or the Authority. Their powers and abilities become their justification for setting themselves above normal people, whereas true superheroes accept that they are fundamentally the same as everyone else. That's the path to them becoming an unaccountable, entitled ruling oligarchy.

That's...not what I'm going for.  Institutional change needs popular support, or at least a counter-institution making said change.  The reason Punisher's fighting a losing war is because he's not dealing with demand.  Remember, evil is more often than not elected.

18 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

If you mean "go out and attack the causes of crime, fix things, defeat problems, and lead people to be better" then I am all for it

That's what I'm going for, and am honestly shocked at people thinking otherwise.  (I have a hypothesis, but that's for another thread.)

17 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

One of the basic tenets of the superhero genre is that the system of government and society most of them live under, i.e. in America, is fundamentally just and benevolent. There may be injustices and abuses, but that's the fault of some people, not of the system itself. Most pro-active superheroes try with or even within the system to correct what they see as flaws.

I know the modern incarnation of the genre is pretty much based on a late 90's milieu, where people still believed in The End of History -- and consequently that further progressiveness would only make things worse.  We all stopped believing in that fantasy after the 2016 election.  Superpowers, and super-costumes, are more believable.

Here's my take: Superheroes are genuinely good people, with nothing more sordid about them than harmless vice (what do you think the private rooms in Club Caprice are for? 😉 ).  However, most of them don't think beyond what they're punching.  They did (in the comics) start off going after white-collar crooks before being distracted by supervillains.  How convenient for the business criminals (like the comics industry in the real world).  And "Father Government Knows Best" is pure wartime propaganda that got grandfathered in.  Sure, the liaisons and agents the heroes deal with are fundamentally just and benevolent, but what about higher up?  They no doubt benefit from supervillains always escaping prison, and I imagine they collectively laughed in relief when the only check on their abuse of power faded on 2020.  Or after every time V'han was expelled.

Now there's a government where reform from within could be possible.  Now if only most supers could be more thoughtful than "THIS! IS! SPARTA!"  Persia was actually the good guy in the conflict.

From what I've seen there's a lot of overlap regarding what modern myths would go in Faerie or Babylon.  So the fundamental question to ask is: how do we tell what goes where?  Mind, there's always the possibility of a cosmological overlap anyway.

Reading through many adventure seeds I've noticed that almost all are not just reactive but almost identical: "The villain must be stopped!"  Besides accursed genre conventions, superheroes are essentially law enforcement relief workers, which is by its nature mostly reactive.  Still, a campaign where the heroes have goals would be very welcome.  I don't mean "defeat VIPER" so much as do something world-changing.  But how to do that?  Also, how to rework plot seeds into a proactive story?

On 2/20/2021 at 6:27 PM, assault said:

Or, of course, you could write a novella about it. Such things tend to be rather useless in a game though.

That's pretty much the idea in the first place, and since it's not for a game the aforementioned utility won't be an issue.

4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

How long did it take to become proficient? Speed of plot.

That's...pretty convenient.  And pretty in-genre now that I think about it.

Let's suppose it does start at the 90pt VPP level.  What sort of story can we get from that?