RDU Neil

The Russo brothers did something special here. They redeemed every issue I had with Infinity War (both in the story, plot and construction and acting and pacing). They made this movie personal... quiet in many ways... the sound was amazing and so subdued but precise... the story and plot worked on every level... they understood how the humor should work side-by-side with the pathos of the story... and they TOOK THEIR TIME! Infinity War felt like you were missing the entire movie of why you should actually care about what was going on... and End Game made it all about that.
 
The plot shift to set-up the final battle was brilliant, providing character growth in the most unlikely place (Nebula) as a lynch pin to both villainous action and heroic victory... the timing and pacing of the movie was staggeringly perfect... they took all they time they needed to make sure all the main characters didn't just get "their moment" but lived and breathed and existed in this broken world. The final battle was staged so that the main fight rose and fell in a rhythm so that the arrival of the full armies felt like the absolutely perfect "shift this up a notch" moment. 

I even loved their discussion of time travel and the theory they ended up going with, and how their "failure" with Loki enabled a time stream where Loki is alive, because it would not have been one that they "closed" off again. (It beggers the question as to multiple timelines, and the fact that for every instance of success where they go back and give the Time Stone back to the Ancient One, there is a timeline where they didn't and that dark, destructive universe exists as well... every possible universe exists somewhere, if we are going the quantum bubble route.)
 
Great stuff all around... truly redeems the failings of Infinity War and the derivative cheapness of Capt. Marvel. They did Marvel proud. 

You know, I was thinking about this while lurking on this thread. I’ve always wondered if the character point inflation wouldn’t have been necessary in 6e if they had simply shifted all the Characteristic ranges back down to lower levels. If normal is still 10, and if DEX doesn’t need to be elevated to drive the Figureds, then the ranges could overlap more, and supers could still excel at some Characteristics while remaining “normal” at others. Then the point inflation could be reduced.
 
I only say this as I’m building some pre-gen heroic characters for a Pulp campaign. I’m fighting against every urge to inflate DEX and the CVs simply out of habit. My players are all new, so they won’t be programmed to think like the earlier editions, so I’m trying to reset the ranges in my own mind.

Why do you say "not taken" as this is what started to happen when we built Supers in 6th Ed.  You could have a 10 DEX Brick, because you put his fighting ability in other stats, and he was just average with agility skills. It still meant that 7/8 Combat Value was probalby the "baseline", but you didn't have to have high DEX to achieve it.  I read everything else you wrote as agreeing with the decoupling of figured stats (the one thing I really love about 6th)... and I really like that it did have the actual in play/in character creation effect of dropping some stats down to a more "reasonable" level.  

If we didn't have such a history of "what a super looks like" from all the other editions, and we started fresh with building characters, I think you would see "11 DEX" on the Thing, but his OCV was probably a base 8, and levels over time. 
 
Also, though I never made a big deal about it... one "justification" I made in the supers games over decades, was "If 23 is the base superhero Dex, even if there was no good reason other than they were a PC... then that just means that stats from 15-20 are more common in the normal population"  Essentially, if the supers were 'bumped up' by default, I 'bumped up' the whole universe a bit. Agents had a base 5 OCV (15 Dex) whatever... then they could get levels. Anybody actually fit and trained who mattered, even if a "normal NPC" could have an 18 DEX, etc. Big strong bikers in bars would regularly have 15-20 STR. And this generally fit the source material... in that "named characters" or even just "the villain of the piece" always were better than the bystanders. 

And keeping this consistent in the campaign meant that the players undestood "what was normal" in the world... because I totally agree with what you said above... the cornerstone of a good supers universe is that the supers have a benchmark "normal" in which to compare themselves.  Just how "super" are they? Since 23 had been set at a default historically, it just became clear that "normal" or more like "normal that mattered dramatically in the stories" was often above average.

Maybe I'm also lucky, but after early high-school days back in the early '80s, I never played with people that really got into the DEX wars. If people played to character, they just didn't point dump into efficient stats... and I never played long with people who prioritized that kind of gaming. That helps, too.

Why do you say "not taken" as this is what started to happen when we built Supers in 6th Ed.  You could have a 10 DEX Brick, because you put his fighting ability in other stats, and he was just average with agility skills. It still meant that 7/8 Combat Value was probalby the "baseline", but you didn't have to have high DEX to achieve it.  I read everything else you wrote as agreeing with the decoupling of figured stats (the one thing I really love about 6th)... and I really like that it did have the actual in play/in character creation effect of dropping some stats down to a more "reasonable" level.  

If we didn't have such a history of "what a super looks like" from all the other editions, and we started fresh with building characters, I think you would see "11 DEX" on the Thing, but his OCV was probably a base 8, and levels over time. 
 
Also, though I never made a big deal about it... one "justification" I made in the supers games over decades, was "If 23 is the base superhero Dex, even if there was no good reason other than they were a PC... then that just means that stats from 15-20 are more common in the normal population"  Essentially, if the supers were 'bumped up' by default, I 'bumped up' the whole universe a bit. Agents had a base 5 OCV (15 Dex) whatever... then they could get levels. Anybody actually fit and trained who mattered, even if a "normal NPC" could have an 18 DEX, etc. Big strong bikers in bars would regularly have 15-20 STR. And this generally fit the source material... in that "named characters" or even just "the villain of the piece" always were better than the bystanders. 

And keeping this consistent in the campaign meant that the players undestood "what was normal" in the world... because I totally agree with what you said above... the cornerstone of a good supers universe is that the supers have a benchmark "normal" in which to compare themselves.  Just how "super" are they? Since 23 had been set at a default historically, it just became clear that "normal" or more like "normal that mattered dramatically in the stories" was often above average.

Maybe I'm also lucky, but after early high-school days back in the early '80s, I never played with people that really got into the DEX wars. If people played to character, they just didn't point dump into efficient stats... and I never played long with people who prioritized that kind of gaming. That helps, too.

I don't think the Thing is slow and clumsy, but I also don't think he is "exceptional" rather than "above average, but not markedly so".
 
 
Sure - a Super who is not a bit better than the average person would be an outlier.  But how many Hero Games Supers have STR, BOD, INT or EGO of 10-13?  Quite a few, I think.
 
How many have under 20 DEX or CON?  When the "extreme low outlier" is at the peak of normal human, that does not fit the source material.
 
The issue started in 1e with the sample characters, which made 23 DEX the "typical Super" level.  It could as easily have been 12 or 15, and they would have better matched the source material - as noted by
 
 
The problem is that, by the time we defined 20 as "the breakpoint to Legendary" in games like Espionage, Justice Inc. and Fantasy Hero, the CU had established the typical DEX and SPD of Supers at Legendary levels, going up from there.
 
Decoupling CV from DEX provided an opportunity (one not taken) to bring DEX back into line.  The Thing can have a 13 DEX, a 5 DCV and an OCV of 10, reflecting him being a bit faster than the average guy, even better at dodging, and a very skilled fighter.  That option was not really there pre-6e, as it was cost-prohibitive.
 
The transition from 5e to 6e made it clear that the real bargain stat was DEX - getting comparable OCV and DCV any other way was less effective and vastly more expensive.

I say this as someone who has played Hero with figured characteristics and without: I prefer figured characteristics, on a purely instinctive level, but not having them makes much more sense.  I think it makes characters a little harder to build, and is a slightly higher barrier to entry for new players who do not know where to pitch things.  I think the cost of some of the characteristics is wrong and I think we could probably lose quite a few of the 'primary' ones in favour of skill bonuses - that might take some tinkering - but, overall, it is a step in the right direction.

Just saw it.  Damn near perfect.   

Further digression... in my Secret Worlds game, one of the PCs is a master hth combatant, who went undercover in a night club. He had no specific skill, but hit the dance floor while there, and rolled a 3 on his DEX roll. He now has Dancing: 13- on his character sheet, 'cause we figured he just "had the moves"... and in last night's game, he actually used it in combat. A big biker had grabbed their female contact and was manhandling her... the PC stepped up and did a multiple attack legsweep on the bad guy, grab/catch on the contact to keep her from falling. He rolled really well with both attacks, and rolled his Dancing skill... spun the young woman in a perfect spin... arms outstretched... as the big guy hits the ground. The PC then danced around her while stomping on the guy's chest then stomach, leaving the biker balled up and gasping on the floor.
 
It was great... though it deteriorated quickly as a shotgun and knives came out and things got ugly... but it was a really fun moment.

Further digression... in my Secret Worlds game, one of the PCs is a master hth combatant, who went undercover in a night club. He had no specific skill, but hit the dance floor while there, and rolled a 3 on his DEX roll. He now has Dancing: 13- on his character sheet, 'cause we figured he just "had the moves"... and in last night's game, he actually used it in combat. A big biker had grabbed their female contact and was manhandling her... the PC stepped up and did a multiple attack legsweep on the bad guy, grab/catch on the contact to keep her from falling. He rolled really well with both attacks, and rolled his Dancing skill... spun the young woman in a perfect spin... arms outstretched... as the big guy hits the ground. The PC then danced around her while stomping on the guy's chest then stomach, leaving the biker balled up and gasping on the floor.
 
It was great... though it deteriorated quickly as a shotgun and knives came out and things got ugly... but it was a really fun moment.

Had to highlight the use of this colloquialism when talking about people of colour walking into a racist establishment....
 
...did you do it knowingly Neil???

?
 
Doc

You saw what I did there... heh. Yeah, there were no few jokes... "A First People Haida, an Indian, a Japanese and an Israeli walk into a biker bar in southern Arizona..."
 
Butts were kicked.

Further digression... in my Secret Worlds game, one of the PCs is a master hth combatant, who went undercover in a night club. He had no specific skill, but hit the dance floor while there, and rolled a 3 on his DEX roll. He now has Dancing: 13- on his character sheet, 'cause we figured he just "had the moves"... and in last night's game, he actually used it in combat. A big biker had grabbed their female contact and was manhandling her... the PC stepped up and did a multiple attack legsweep on the bad guy, grab/catch on the contact to keep her from falling. He rolled really well with both attacks, and rolled his Dancing skill... spun the young woman in a perfect spin... arms outstretched... as the big guy hits the ground. The PC then danced around her while stomping on the guy's chest then stomach, leaving the biker balled up and gasping on the floor.
 
It was great... though it deteriorated quickly as a shotgun and knives came out and things got ugly... but it was a really fun moment.

hah... exactly... the dice were enough that the biker took 1 body and that's exactly what we ruled, that he broke his nose with his own arm! It was sweet.
 

Quoting myself, simply because last night's game had a classic example of hit location making things fun. PCs were essentially set up to walk (knowingly) into a hard core, criminal, white supremacist biker bar... none of the PCs, for probably the first time ever, are white... things go south pretty quickly... bar fight ensues. The PCs are Jason Bourne level pros, who are on their best behavior and trying NOT to just kill these guys... so initially it is all fisticuffs. We are using modified multiple attack rules, so characters are encouraged to throw not just one attack, but a combo of shots that feels much more like fighting than the "one big swing" typical of HERO champs.
 
Our Haida merc, Jackson Massett, rabbit punches the first guy in the chest as he grabs an outstretched hand and twists him to the ground, sidestepping his second attacker. As the first guy falls back and staggers to his feet, he turns to the second biker and drives a shot into his stomach so hard the guy doubles over, Massett's second punch missing contact over his head, the first guy lunges from a squat swinging wide, going right over Jackson's roll. As the second attacker swings again, Jackson slams his hand up into the man's throat, windpipe collapses and the biker drops like a wet sack. First biker thinks he has position and goes for a bear hug, trying to use his size to overwhelm Jackson, who slips to the side jamming the man's arms  inside, then he turns and brings a hard left right at the guy's nose (High Shot).

This is where it got really fun, because despiste the high shot roll, it hit the biker in the 7/forearm. The biker threw his arm up just in time... but Jackson's player rolled... and dice were crazy... 26 Stun on 5d6. The player cackled, "Oh man, I punched his arm right into his own face!" which was a perfect example of how an arm shot could end up doing enough damage (to an already woozy dude). And just created a perfect visual image the guy basically punching himself on to his back. 
 
That kind of visceral fight just doesn't exist in any other system I've played, with the simple, intuitive nature of the Hit Location chart.

Best part of the game, IMO.
 
 
 
 

Neil has put it better than me.
 
The idea is that , as part of character gen, the players make sure they're  characters have connections to the other characters.
 
There are of course many ways of doing this. ?

Quoting myself, simply because last night's game had a classic example of hit location making things fun. PCs were essentially set up to walk (knowingly) into a hard core, criminal, white supremacist biker bar... none of the PCs, for probably the first time ever, are white... things go south pretty quickly... bar fight ensues. The PCs are Jason Bourne level pros, who are on their best behavior and trying NOT to just kill these guys... so initially it is all fisticuffs. We are using modified multiple attack rules, so characters are encouraged to throw not just one attack, but a combo of shots that feels much more like fighting than the "one big swing" typical of HERO champs.
 
Our Haida merc, Jackson Massett, rabbit punches the first guy in the chest as he grabs an outstretched hand and twists him to the ground, sidestepping his second attacker. As the first guy falls back and staggers to his feet, he turns to the second biker and drives a shot into his stomach so hard the guy doubles over, Massett's second punch missing contact over his head, the first guy lunges from a squat swinging wide, going right over Jackson's roll. As the second attacker swings again, Jackson slams his hand up into the man's throat, windpipe collapses and the biker drops like a wet sack. First biker thinks he has position and goes for a bear hug, trying to use his size to overwhelm Jackson, who slips to the side jamming the man's arms  inside, then he turns and brings a hard left right at the guy's nose (High Shot).

This is where it got really fun, because despiste the high shot roll, it hit the biker in the 7/forearm. The biker threw his arm up just in time... but Jackson's player rolled... and dice were crazy... 26 Stun on 5d6. The player cackled, "Oh man, I punched his arm right into his own face!" which was a perfect example of how an arm shot could end up doing enough damage (to an already woozy dude). And just created a perfect visual image the guy basically punching himself on to his back. 
 
That kind of visceral fight just doesn't exist in any other system I've played, with the simple, intuitive nature of the Hit Location chart.

Best part of the game, IMO.
 
 
 
 

Quoting myself, simply because last night's game had a classic example of hit location making things fun. PCs were essentially set up to walk (knowingly) into a hard core, criminal, white supremacist biker bar... none of the PCs, for probably the first time ever, are white... things go south pretty quickly... bar fight ensues. The PCs are Jason Bourne level pros, who are on their best behavior and trying NOT to just kill these guys... so initially it is all fisticuffs. We are using modified multiple attack rules, so characters are encouraged to throw not just one attack, but a combo of shots that feels much more like fighting than the "one big swing" typical of HERO champs.
 
Our Haida merc, Jackson Massett, rabbit punches the first guy in the chest as he grabs an outstretched hand and twists him to the ground, sidestepping his second attacker. As the first guy falls back and staggers to his feet, he turns to the second biker and drives a shot into his stomach so hard the guy doubles over, Massett's second punch missing contact over his head, the first guy lunges from a squat swinging wide, going right over Jackson's roll. As the second attacker swings again, Jackson slams his hand up into the man's throat, windpipe collapses and the biker drops like a wet sack. First biker thinks he has position and goes for a bear hug, trying to use his size to overwhelm Jackson, who slips to the side jamming the man's arms  inside, then he turns and brings a hard left right at the guy's nose (High Shot).

This is where it got really fun, because despiste the high shot roll, it hit the biker in the 7/forearm. The biker threw his arm up just in time... but Jackson's player rolled... and dice were crazy... 26 Stun on 5d6. The player cackled, "Oh man, I punched his arm right into his own face!" which was a perfect example of how an arm shot could end up doing enough damage (to an already woozy dude). And just created a perfect visual image the guy basically punching himself on to his back. 
 
That kind of visceral fight just doesn't exist in any other system I've played, with the simple, intuitive nature of the Hit Location chart.

Best part of the game, IMO.
 
 
 
 

Been a while since I played Fate, but this is part of characterization, less actual play scenes. Character A writes a short paragraph describing how they worked with Character B on a mission... Character B writes one about Character C... Character C writes one about D, who write one about A... all as part of their character backgrounds. That way all the characters essentially "know each other" and have a motivating connection with at least one other before the game even starts.
 
I've done something like this with a lot of my games, generally to make sure the actual play skips the terrible, unnecessary "you meet in a bar" and no one wants to hang out party setup crap that almost always derails games before they start.

Quoting myself, simply because last night's game had a classic example of hit location making things fun. PCs were essentially set up to walk (knowingly) into a hard core, criminal, white supremacist biker bar... none of the PCs, for probably the first time ever, are white... things go south pretty quickly... bar fight ensues. The PCs are Jason Bourne level pros, who are on their best behavior and trying NOT to just kill these guys... so initially it is all fisticuffs. We are using modified multiple attack rules, so characters are encouraged to throw not just one attack, but a combo of shots that feels much more like fighting than the "one big swing" typical of HERO champs.
 
Our Haida merc, Jackson Massett, rabbit punches the first guy in the chest as he grabs an outstretched hand and twists him to the ground, sidestepping his second attacker. As the first guy falls back and staggers to his feet, he turns to the second biker and drives a shot into his stomach so hard the guy doubles over, Massett's second punch missing contact over his head, the first guy lunges from a squat swinging wide, going right over Jackson's roll. As the second attacker swings again, Jackson slams his hand up into the man's throat, windpipe collapses and the biker drops like a wet sack. First biker thinks he has position and goes for a bear hug, trying to use his size to overwhelm Jackson, who slips to the side jamming the man's arms  inside, then he turns and brings a hard left right at the guy's nose (High Shot).

This is where it got really fun, because despiste the high shot roll, it hit the biker in the 7/forearm. The biker threw his arm up just in time... but Jackson's player rolled... and dice were crazy... 26 Stun on 5d6. The player cackled, "Oh man, I punched his arm right into his own face!" which was a perfect example of how an arm shot could end up doing enough damage (to an already woozy dude). And just created a perfect visual image the guy basically punching himself on to his back. 
 
That kind of visceral fight just doesn't exist in any other system I've played, with the simple, intuitive nature of the Hit Location chart.

Best part of the game, IMO.
 
 
 
 

Further digression... in my Secret Worlds game, one of the PCs is a master hth combatant, who went undercover in a night club. He had no specific skill, but hit the dance floor while there, and rolled a 3 on his DEX roll. He now has Dancing: 13- on his character sheet, 'cause we figured he just "had the moves"... and in last night's game, he actually used it in combat. A big biker had grabbed their female contact and was manhandling her... the PC stepped up and did a multiple attack legsweep on the bad guy, grab/catch on the contact to keep her from falling. He rolled really well with both attacks, and rolled his Dancing skill... spun the young woman in a perfect spin... arms outstretched... as the big guy hits the ground. The PC then danced around her while stomping on the guy's chest then stomach, leaving the biker balled up and gasping on the floor.
 
It was great... though it deteriorated quickly as a shotgun and knives came out and things got ugly... but it was a really fun moment.

I had an aikido instructor who used to say, "There's nothing more embarrassing than getting your nose broken by your own arm."

And that, my friends, is why we play these games!

Quoting myself, simply because last night's game had a classic example of hit location making things fun. PCs were essentially set up to walk (knowingly) into a hard core, criminal, white supremacist biker bar... none of the PCs, for probably the first time ever, are white... things go south pretty quickly... bar fight ensues. The PCs are Jason Bourne level pros, who are on their best behavior and trying NOT to just kill these guys... so initially it is all fisticuffs. We are using modified multiple attack rules, so characters are encouraged to throw not just one attack, but a combo of shots that feels much more like fighting than the "one big swing" typical of HERO champs.
 
Our Haida merc, Jackson Massett, rabbit punches the first guy in the chest as he grabs an outstretched hand and twists him to the ground, sidestepping his second attacker. As the first guy falls back and staggers to his feet, he turns to the second biker and drives a shot into his stomach so hard the guy doubles over, Massett's second punch missing contact over his head, the first guy lunges from a squat swinging wide, going right over Jackson's roll. As the second attacker swings again, Jackson slams his hand up into the man's throat, windpipe collapses and the biker drops like a wet sack. First biker thinks he has position and goes for a bear hug, trying to use his size to overwhelm Jackson, who slips to the side jamming the man's arms  inside, then he turns and brings a hard left right at the guy's nose (High Shot).

This is where it got really fun, because despiste the high shot roll, it hit the biker in the 7/forearm. The biker threw his arm up just in time... but Jackson's player rolled... and dice were crazy... 26 Stun on 5d6. The player cackled, "Oh man, I punched his arm right into his own face!" which was a perfect example of how an arm shot could end up doing enough damage (to an already woozy dude). And just created a perfect visual image the guy basically punching himself on to his back. 
 
That kind of visceral fight just doesn't exist in any other system I've played, with the simple, intuitive nature of the Hit Location chart.

Best part of the game, IMO.