sbarron

Here is a Mage I just put together at work that uses a small VPP and a MP. I think he is pretty well balanced, and has access to a wide variety of spells. Lucian Cloudchaser Player: Val Char Cost 13 STR 3 17 DEX 21 15 CON 10 10 BODY 0 18 INT 8 13 EGO 6 13 PRE 3 10 COM 0 6 PD 0 6 ED 0 3 SPD 3 6 REC 0 30 END 0 25 STUN 0 6" RUN02" SWIM02 1/2" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 54 Cost Power END 15 Cantrips: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 10 base + 5 control cost (15 Active Points) 0 1) Force Field: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 2) Shadow Walk: Teleportation 5" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 3) Smoke Cloud: Darkness to Sight Group 1" radius (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 4) Mind over Matter: Telekinesis (5 STR) (8 Active Points) Real Cost: 7 1 0 5) Light a candle: Energy Blast 2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 6) Feather Fall: Gliding 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 0 7) Drain Any Characteristic: Drain 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 8) Spider Climb: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 0 9) Aid Any Characteristic: Aid 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 0 10) Hardened Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 1 0 11) Shrinking: Shrinking (0.9271 m tall, 0.4636 m wide, 10.2058 kg mass, -2 PER Rolls to perceive character, +2 DCV, +3" KB) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 12) Growth: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 327 kg mass) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 13) Ships Through Smoke Rings: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 14) Bird Call: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 15) Fish Gills: Life Support , Expanded Breathing (5 Active Points) Real Cost: 5 0 16) Frog Jump: Leaping 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 17) Reardare's Flame: Killing Attack - Ranged 0 1/2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 18) Luck of the Irish: Luck 2d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 0 19) Detect Magic: Detect A Single Thing 15-, Range (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 0 20) Light Spell: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1) Real Cost: 5 1 15 Wizard Spells: Multipower, 45-point reserve, all slots: (45 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Extra Time Full Phase (-1/2), Side Effects (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) 1u 1) Magwem's Mighty Wings: Flight 15" (30 Active Points) 3 1u 2) Smitty's Invisible Hand: Telekinesis (30 STR) (45 Active Points) 4 1u 3) Summon Fog Bank: Darkness to Sight and Sight Groups 3" radius (40 Active Points) 4 1u 4) Darius' Magic Render: Dispel 15d6 (45 Active Points) 4 1u 5) Fretta's FIre Storm: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2) (45 Active Points) 4 1u 6) Lorenda's Lightning Lance: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2) (45 Active Points) 4 1u 7) Freagle's Frosty Force: Energy Blast 9d6 (vs. ED) (45 Active Points) 4 1u 8) Identify Magic : Detect Magic 13-, Analyze, Discriminatory, Range (18 Active Points) Powers Cost: 38 Cost Skill 3 Bureaucratics 12- 3 Concealment 13- 3 Paramedic 13- 2 Cryptography (Only to translate languages) 13- 3 Stealth 12- 3 Spell Research 13- 2 PS: Wizard-for-hire 11- 9 Magic Skill (INT-based) 16- 6 +2 with Wizard Spells 2 WF: Blades, Thrown Knives, Axes, and Darts 1 LS: Ancient Dikeeny (basic conversation) 2 AK: Coasts of Talorne 11- 1 AK: City of Westgate 8- 3 Scholar 2 1) KS: Arcane Lore (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13- 1 2) KS: Wizards Guild Traditions and Laws (2 Active Points) 11- 1 3) KS: Enchanted Items (2 Active Points) 11- 1 4) KS: Myths and Legends (2 Active Points) 11- 1 5) KS: Magical Creatures (2 Active Points) 11- Skills Cost: 49 Cost Perk 3 Member of Wizards Guild Perks Cost: 3 Cost Talent 6 Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED) Talents Cost: 6 Total Character Cost: 150 Val Disadvantages 15 Psychological Limitation: Oath of Fealty to High Wizard Marius, Lord of Westgate (Very Common; Moderate) 10 Psychological Limitation: Adventurous (Common; Moderate) 10 Reputation: Wizard of Westgate 11- 10 Hunted: Watched by Wizards of Westgate 8- (Mo Pow; Watching; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) 15 Hunted: Gragle the Ogre (slaver) 8- (As Pow; Harshly Punish; Extensive Non-Combat Influence) 10 Rivalry: Professional (Jarrod Hellspine, High Wizard of the Point; Rival is More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry) 5 Distinctive Features: Magical Aura (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses) 0 Normal Characteristic Maxima Disadvantage Points: 75 Base Points: 75 Experience Required: 0 Total Experience Available: 0 Experience Unspent: 0

You could Another Skip, if your GM let you. I wouldn't though. One of the most unbablancing characters I ever GM'd for was a "Combat Mage." He basically bought a bunch of 1/2 phase action spells that he could trigger during segment 12. +15 to STR, +8 to Dex, +4 CSL, etc. In effect, he built a fighter that got to take limitations on his CHAR and skill levels. He whooped ass big time, sure. But that wasn't fun for anyone else. So I have sinced vowed to not let happen in one of my games again. Mages can cast "SPELLS." They can't buy a bunch of powers lightly veiled under the guise of "magic."

The part about him not having any control over the outcome seems like it would be a VPP with a form of Uncontrollable. He can decide he wants to make something happen, but not how or what exactly. That would all be up to the GM. I don't know how fun this would be though. There wouldn't be any dice rolling for the PC (other than dodging and stuff), and the GM would have to do all the work of figuring out what the result from the stated probility shift is. The GM may be into that or not. The more I think about it, Luck dice are the way to go with this. The GM decides what the results from being lucky are, which is how this power is described. Maybe use "usable as attack" so that he can use his luck to make the little boy in his example lucky? This ones complicated. Since I'm just thinking with my fingers, I'll bow out...

A couple more things, Mister D... The 5d6 Ego Attack AE Cone is really strong too. That would stun 75% of the FH characters I have seen, and because it is AE, it could stun them in groups. Again, if thats the kind of game you are playing, no problem. 100 Active points is way to much for most games. Especially just starting out. You might to tone back those spells to the 45-60 AP range. It will be more in line with most FH games. But that's up to you, it's just a suggestion. I think Jarrod could use some more Heroic skills. I know he is just coming out of school, but he may not be long for this world if he doesn't get some basic adventuring skills. So, as a suggestion... Make his Mage Sight a spell. That will save you about 16 points. Buy him a lesser Mage "sight" if you want, but drop the Discriminitory, analyze, etc. Just make it Sense Magic at Range, and put Concentrate on it. Detect Magic: Detect A Single Thing 15-, Range (8 Active Points) Concentrate (0 DCV) -1/2, Real Cost: 5 This way, you can have the Powerful Spell to Figure out what something is, and have the ability to look at things and determine if they are magical or not with your normal vision. In addition, it would save you about 10 points to drop into some adventuring skills like, Stealth, Concealment, WFs etc. And these things make sense for him too. He played hide and seek in the library, he had to find books that had been hidden away deep in the basement, and...well, maybe WF don't make as much sense, but you get the idea.

Just a couple of comments to start... Why didn't he pay any points for his MP? If that is just how you wanted to make your magic system, then that's cool. But if it is an error, it's an expensive one. His spells seem on the powerfull side to me. Again, it depends on the game you are playing. 4d6 RKA w/ a +1 STUN x is a very powerful attack. That will average 14 BOD and 63 Stun per hit. That will knock out 95% of FH characters I have ever seen with one shot. If it's what you wanted then cool. But if not... I like the cantrips VPP though.

Since I have begun fooling around with making a character with the above VPP...what does everyone think is the appropriate number of points that a starting Wizard should spend on his spells? Assuming a 150 point character. I think I saw someone mention 40 pts as being a pretty competent wizard. I that the general consensus? I think I might go higher, say 60.

I was always a big believer in the small VPP to represent lots of low level spells that make a Wizard cool, and either a MP or just buying spells outright for the more potent/combat spells. Below is a VPP I just put together that only costs 20 points. I realize that is a bunch for a 150 pt character, but I think what he can do with it in return more than makes up for it. I would always put additional restrictions on spell casters just to make sure that everyone doesn't grab a cool VPP like this. But the spells below (and my imagination on how to use them) is why I would want to play a wizard. A 3d6 RKA is cool too, but, for me at least, this little stuff is what makes a wizard fun to play. Cost Power END 20 Cantrips: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 10 base + 10 control cost, No Skill Roll Required (+1) (20 Active Points) 0 1) Force Field: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 2) Shadow Walk: Teleportation 5" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 3) Telekinesis (5 STR) (8 Active Points) Real Cost: 7 1 0 4) Light Spell: Sight Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1) Real Cost: 5 1 0 5) Light a candle: Energy Blast 2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 6) Feather Fall: Gliding 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 0 7) Drain Any Characteristic: Drain 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 8) Darkness field: Darkness to Hearing Group 2" radius (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 9) Spider Climb: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 0 10) Aid Any Characteristic: Aid 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 0 11) Hardened Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) Real Cost: 7 1 0 12) Smoke Rings: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 13) Bird Call: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 14) Growth: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 399 kg mass) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 15) Fish Gills: Life Support , Expanded Breathing (5 Active Points) Real Cost: 5 0 16) Frog Jump: Leaping +10" (12"/14" forward, 6"/7" upward) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 17) Start a fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 0 1/2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 1 0 18) Luck of the Irish: Luck 2d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10 Powers Cost: 20

That was a list of possible spells in a VPP, not a multipower.

If it's just for your game, I wouldn't "build" it at all. I would just say... "For each of the creatures phases, anything within 10" takes -5 End. If they run out of End, then they take -5 stun per phase. If they run out of Stun, they take -1 Bod per phase." It's easier just to stat it out like this than it is to build an esoteric power. But this being Hero, everyone wants to build everything with points...

"On the slopes of Mount Doom, their great army drove back the Dark Lord's forces; but there Gilgalad, though as an immortal elf-lord he was never born to die, perished beneath the heat of Sauron's hand; and Elendil fell, too, breaking beneath him his legendary greatsword Narsil, which had been forged in the First Age by the dwarves. His son Isuldur, prince of Gondor, took up the shard and with its sharp edge struck from the Dark Lord's hand the One Ring, thus breaking at last his will and power." I would say it went something like this... GM: "...ok. Elendil is dead. Gilgalad is at -14 Body and -47 Stun and will die next phase. Narsil is broken. Isuldor, as you kneel beside your fathers wrecked body, you realize he is beyond help. Then...your world becomes terror. The awsome power of Dark Lord Sauron's presence is focused directly on your back. You can feel the heat of his gaze as he takes notice of you. You hear a thump as he takes a step towards you. What do you do?" Isuldor: "THIS ISN'T HAPPENING! Damn! Are there any weapons near me?" GM: "Sure, your broken spear, your dagger, and the shattered Narsil." Isuldor: "Can I run for it?" Gm: "Not likely. Sauron will get a shot at your back. And he hasn't missed all day." Isuldor: Christ! I'm at -6 Body. I won't survive another hit. I may as well go out swinging. I grab what's left of Narsil and swing at Sauron with everything I've got...all my OCV levels into damage. I roll a 3!!! That's a crit. Max damage! That's 21 Body! To the...6?!? Ahh man..." ...and the rest is history

You could also just buy some levels w/ DCV for your character and define the additional levels as his uncanny ability to block or deflect incoming attacks. I make special effects fun!!!

I usually go with 25 point max per catagory. Generally, I end up with 25 pts worth of psych lims, 25 points worth of hunteds, and then a mix-mash of everything else. Rivalries are good, as are small reputations. I like to give the GM plenty of plot starters. I think these work well.

I assumed that this was the reason for the inclusion of these magic systems. Hero Systems whole point is that you can make any type of character you want, and play any type of game. The rules as presented make various types of games (magic systems) difficult to simulate unless you are willing to tweak the rules. I think these ideas are there to demonstrate that.

See the link from above.

Not that I want to get into an argument, Dauntless, but you did ask if anyone thought MA were too expensive. And you got the answer. Generally no, most people do not think MAs are too expensive. But like you said, you are looking for a particular "feel," and you haven't had any luck creating it yourself. Well, I'm here to help, but I'm not really sure what you are looking for. Do you just want MAs to be cheaper? That is easily enough done with your already suggested "1/2 off" to the PCs. Or you could give each of the PCs one MA (20 pts worth) for free. Or maybe you could just reduce the cost of each maneuver by 1 pt. Or any other combo of price breaks you can think of. Can you be a little more specific of what you are hoping to find? And just in case this helps, the below link is to a site that has a "cheaper" MA system for Hero. Many of the maneuvers are weaker, but now they only cost one point per maneuver, so you could certainly afford a lot more of them on 150 pts. I find this system really useful for low level Heroic games where +4d6 HA could get somebody killed. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Tom_Carman/DOWNLOAD/cheap.htm Hope this helps, or at least gives you some ideas.

No, I don't think that MA are too expensive. But I also don't think of the manuevers the same way as you do, and I realize that has something to do with it. For me, Martial Strike could represent dozens of actual striking maneuvers for a very skilled martial artist, or it could just be the right cross from a decent street fighter. EIther way, in and of itself it only costs 4 points. 4 points for for +2d6 HA, and +2 DCV. That's not too shabby. I would also disagree with you that your average black belt would have 30 points worth of manuervers. I would say the average black belt would have between 10 and 15 points of moves. There might be a few MA that would have 30 pts of MA moves, but not many. 30 Pts of Moves is definitely super hero MAist, and he can do a lot more with those 30 points than your average BB because of his Dex and Spd. I don't know if either of us have the "intended official" idea behind MA points or not. I just thought I would share how I think of MA, and how different my view is than yours.

Re: Re: Need help with an upcoming campaign... This is a great idea OddHat. But I think you asked the wrong question at the end of it. Do the Heroes have the courage to continue to do what's right once they have knowledge of the good they can attain by becoming evil? It could probably be said more elequently, but I think you get the idea.

I would think that claws, teeth and tail would just be the default element for this MA, and thereofre wouldn't cost any points. These are their natural weapons after all, and I'd assume the MA was designed around using them. If you wanted to add weapons, or maybe just punching without the claws as additional elements, I think that'd make sense to charge for them.

I agree with Hugh. This seems like change environment to me.

Having just picked up FH last night (Hurray!), I'd like to note that there is more than a full page of text with ideas dedicated exclusively to dealing with this problem (as presented by Yamo). I just skimmed through that section last night, but it seems like we have covered most the ideas presented there during this discussion. Maybe having it in an "official" book will make it more palatable to those hesitant to tweak the rules. Personally, I think there are plenty of simple fixes available to GMs that will allow light fighters to go head to head with tanks as effectively as they do in the fantasy genre.

It was a hassle, and it took some leaning on my part, but I now have a HD template with Str costing 2 for 1. I haven't decided whether I will ever go with it or not, but I like the idea. We'll see...

Here is another idea. How about making all armor a special effect of Combat Luck? Everyone has to pay points for their combat luck, and any armor they wear is just the in-game representation of it. No penalties, no bonuses, everyone gets whqat they paid for. I would think that it would make the fencer a match for the heavy tank. By the way, this bickering is pointless. This is a legitimate request, even if only to try and win over D&Ders.

Behold, the price we pay for balance!

I don't have FH (hopefully tonight! ), but unless it was a mistake to not raise the DEF to the next higher level when adding studding, I would think reinforcing would increase the BOD. Maybe Steve will weigh in on this. He did right it, afterall.

You're right, Yamo. From a purely meta-gaming stand point, it does make sense to make characters utilizing this weakness in the rules to make the "best" (i.e. most powerful) characters. But the same could be said for any other genre that has a weakness like this. Supers also has very cheap strength and powers like 1d6 RKA, AE, AF(10), Penetrating attacks. The GMs job is to deal with things like this, too. We've had these discussion a dozen times on the boards. There is no simple answer. Here are some of the most common: 1) Make heavy armors prohibatively expensive. 2) Make heavy armor not available. 3) Increase the weight of armor, increase the penalties, use 4th Ed penalty system, decrease the weight before penalties, include all equipment in weight calcs 4) Make Find Weakness more common/cheaper, make AP attacks more common/cheaper 5) Make wearing heavy armor such a pain in the ass that PCs shy away from it (rusting, develop sores, get rashes, sink like stone in water, etc.) 6) Make Heavy armor a status symbol in your campaign, only nobles/royalty can wear it 7) One I'm personally considering, make Str cost 2 pts I'm sure someone else will have additional ideas. Here is a thread I had a while ago that had a similar premise. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3002