sbarron

The whole idea of "starting mage fresh out of school" is your idea of a starting campaign. That doesn't meant that it is the only way of doing things. I'd rather that my "starting" mages had enough spells that they aren't one trick ponies, with one attack, one defence, etc. And as far as increasing power, if a character has to buy a new spell in a point buy system, it will take them forever to get a new one, much less several or a really powerful one. Particularly if they are not willing save a lot of points with limitations. The cost, at least to me, seems prohibitive. Yamo's mage got a 2d6 RKA for 20pts. A 2d6 AE RKA with his limits would cost 40pts. So he has to be a 190pt character before he could even consider buying this spell. I don't know what you mean by more powerful coming later, but I don't know too many players who are willing to wait that long for one spell that isn't even that powerful. At least with the framework, each additional spell doesn't cost much and you only have to pay the points for higher active cost spells once, when you increase the MP. To me that's easily preferable to paying for each spell in turn in the point buy system. This is all just a matter of taste. We obviously have very different ideas about how a mage should look and at what rate they should advance in their magical arts. I understand the concerns that some have expressed recently concerning magic, and I think balance can be found with the MP. Though exactly how it is balanced is up to each GM. YMMV.

Your ideas here have merit. I was thinking about something similar the other day. If your average fighter benefits from x number of points worth of equipment, then whatever spell framework that I come up with for the mage should provide a point discount only to make up the difference. I haven't fleshed this out much, but I'm thinking. However, it is important to note that in the Hero system, there is nothing preventing the mage from using equipment as well. So while he may not have as many skill levels w/ swords, there is nothing preventing him from using one, and taking advantage of the "real points" that using a regular sword provides. I 've seen the whole skill level thing blown out of the water before, though. I played in a FH game based on RuneQuest, where mages could cast spells like Bladesharp, that provided skill levels for a limited time, and Strength. It turned out the "Battle Mages" were the baddest guys going, because they could increase their stats and skill levels during Segment 12, and then they were way better fighters than the fighters. And they got to take limits on the levels. Balance in FH depends on the rules that the GM sets for magic. It is difficult to find a good balance. I think this is an excellent idea for a thread, by the way.

And by the way, the mage you created is completely playable at 150 pts. He just doesn't have as many spells as most players would like to play, myself included. That's why I think some sort of power framework is in order. Though which one is up to you.

Rather than allowing mages to put all spells into a MP, which would be very cheap, you could also limit MPs to groups of related spells. Offensive Spells, Defensive Spells, Movement spells are some that pop to mind. Here is your character's offensive spells in a "Offensive Spells" MP, with a couple extra spells thrown in. You'll note that you would save points with this version, even with the extra spells and the higher power level. And adding new offensive spells would be cheaper, addressing your concerns for advancement. 25 Offensive Spells: Multipower, 37-point reserve, all slots: (37 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) 2u 1) Magebolt: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6+1 (vs. ED) (35 Active Points) 2u 2) Mageblast: Energy Blast 7d6 (vs. ED) (35 Active Points) 2u 3) Piercing Energy Arrow : Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2) (37 Active Points) 2u 4) Spellbreaking: Dispel 10d6: Any Magic, Expanded Effect (One At A Time; +1/4) (37 Active Points) The Ultimate super mage had a large section devoted to many Specific Spell MPs. So rather than just an Offensive Spells MP, you might go for "The Flames of Venus" MP. This MP could have any spells in it that had a fire sfx, but wouldn't help much for healing, communication, mind spells, etc. The GM would need to oversee this to avoid abuse, but it's another way to go. Just kicking out ideas, here. If you can do it in D&D, you can do it in Hero. You just have to find the balance that's right for your game.

Rather than saying he has "16 points CSL", it's more accurate to say +2 w/ All Combat. And the "a 10 pts HTH" should be +2 w/ HTH (Melee is equally accepted). So he would have 4 levels to use for whatever he wanted in this fight. Providing this is what you meant, of course. He will automatically protect himself. You don't have to mention that specifically when you are descibing his actions unless he is planning on doing a maneuver that is defensive (block, dodge, dive for cover, etc.). So on the phase you describe, his character wants to attack his opponent. If he has an 18 Dex, the his base OCV/DCV is 6 (18/3). He has to decide how he will destribute his levels this phase. He could fight defensively, to decrease his chance of getting hit, by putting all his levels in DCV, giving him 6 OCV and 10 DCV. Or he could decide to fight offensively, and go with 10 OCV and 6 DCV. Or he could just distribute them equally and go with 8 OCV and 8 DCV. Once he sets the levels for this phase, they are set until his next phase, at which time he can reset them however he'd like.

I agree with coach that the WF is really what makes a cop better than the average person using a firearm. That 3 levels diffence is a big one. And I also agree that you will see a wide range of proficiency in the spectrum of cops. Many have military experience, most were athletes in high school, etc. This all essentially boils down to the world that you are running. Do you want cops to be pretty tough? Then give them a level or 2 with guns, a 13 STR, and go with it. I generally wouldn't, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't. I might actually up the Spd from the 2 I initially stated to a 3. Cops generally will be among the first people to start "doing something" in a crisis situation, and that's probably best reflected by a 3 Spd. And since we are telling our "cop stories," my Dad has been a cop for about 20 years, and my younger brother has been a cop for about 3. I've been going on "ride alongs" since as far back as I can remember. All we talk about when we get together for Thanksgiving every year is cop stuff. No one wants to talk about the cool things trade analysts do. It's all about the arrests, drugs, murders, etc. Trade analysts are important too!!! Do I seem bitter? I'm not. I'm a little envious of excitment, and the chance to actually do something "good" once in a while. And who every saw a movie about a trade analyst who gets to track down a hideous monster from beyond that is destroying their town? The cops get all the cool roles! But I do get to sit here in air conditioning and read about Hero games all day...and I make more money.

I think that the average person now has stats of 8, not 10. Stats of 10 are used for characters that are already assumed to be healthy, fit, and generally above the average Joe. For what it's worth, I'd give the average cop 10's and a 2 Spd, with WF but no levels. I just don't think they spend enough time shooting to merit having any levels. Some will, but it certainly wouldn't be the average.

Excellent! Be sure to stop back in and let us know how it goes.

See the OCV/DCV thread. I took a crack at answering there.

Hopefully a good example will help. Say you have a sword master with a 20 Dex, 3 levels with swords and 2 Hand-to-Hand levels. On your character sheet: 9 +3 w/ Swords 10 +2 w/ H-to-H The levels with swords are 3 point levels, with swords being the tight group. The hand-to-hand are 5 point levels. the 9 and 10 listed above are the cost of these levels. Our character above has a base OCV and DCV of 7 (20 Dex/3). When using the sword, he now has all the above levels to move around between his OCV and DCV. So he could have a 12 OCV and 7 DCV, 10 OCV and 9 DCV, 7 OCV and 12 DCV, or any combination utilizing the 5 levels. These levels will be in addition to any other modifiers for the combat maneuver that the character happens to be doing. (Martial block provides an additional +2 OCV and +2 DCV for example.) For any levels that the character puts in DCV, they will only be effective vs. hand-to-hand attacks. These levels will not increase his DCV vs. ranged attacks. The only levels that can be used as DCV vs. ranged attacks are 5 pt DCV levels (bought exclusively for DCV purposes) and the 8 pt All Combat levels. In a herioc campaign (which you will be playing for Terran Empire), the swordmaster could also take 2 of the above levels and use them to increase the damage of his attack by 1 damage class. So if he could normally do 1 1/2 d6 with his sword, he could use two levels to make it 2d6. If he were to attack someone with an axe, then he could only use the two H-t-h levels. Unless, of course, someone attacked him with a sword, then he could use his sword levels with DCV. I'll try to explain this below. To answer some of you specific questions about the differing combat skill levels: 2 pt levels. Provide +1 OCV with weapon or attack of choice. So if our swordman above had +1 OCV w/ swords, then evey time he attacked with a sword, regardless of the maneuver he might be using, he would get a +1 OCV. Any additional mods from the maneurver would be included for determining OCV and DCV, however. If he had bought +1 OCV with blocks, then whenever he performed a block, he would get +1 to his OCV. He would get this +1 OCV regardless of the weapon that he used, whether he had the appropriate familiarity with it, or whether he just blocked with his bare hands. 3 pt levels. You can buy it for a tight group like swords, pistols, axes, rifles, etc. You can also buy it for 3 maneuvers (Disarm, Move-by and move-through, to use your example). So long as you are using the weapon that you bought the levels for, you get the levels regardless of the Maneuver you are doing. The same is true for the 3 maneuver levels. Regardless of the weapon you may or may not use, so long as you are doing the maneuver you bought the level for, you get the levels. The 3 pt levels are the first you can also use for DCV. If you are using a sword, and you have a 3 pt level with swords, you can use this level in DCV vs. any H-t-H attack. This is because you are using your swordsmanship to make it harder for you opponent to hit you. This is only good vs. H-t-H attacks. In the event you are using a pistol, you could not use these sword levels to increase your DCV vs. H-t-H attacks in general. However, if someone were to attack you with a sword (and only a sword), then you could use your sword levels in DCV against that attack. This is because your skill with swords provides you with the knowledge to avoid getting hit by swords (you know how fast they move, their range, angle of attack, etc.) 5 pt levels are more generic. They can be purchased for a large group of attacks (US soldiers weapons, All Hand-to-Hand attacks, all ranged attacks, etc) or as +1 DCV. If you buy a 5 pt +1 DCV level, then this level is good against all attacks (including ranged). But all it is useful for is DCV. If you buy +1 w/ H-t-H, then you get that level any time you are engaged in H-t-H fighting, for either OCV or DCV, regardless of the weapon you are using, etc. However, this level cannot be used for DCV against ranged attacks. If you are using a gun, and are attacked by a H-t-H attack, then just like the sword example above, you can use your knowledge of H-t-H combat to get +1 DCV versus all H-t-H attacks against you. For ranged attacks levels (+1 w/ pistols, +1 with all ranged, etc), you cannot use these levels for DCV. The 8 pt All combat levels can be used for anything, all the time. They can provide DCV vs. all attacks, OCV for all Attacks, and can be combined with other levels to increase damage. Damn, that's a lot of typing. I hope this helps.

Yes, the latter. Basically, the PC buys the initial 20pt MP, and the requisite skills to use it during character creation. Then as he progresses in XP, and meets the neccesary requirements, he can increase the power of his MP. How often he can buy additional spells to go into his MP is another concern, and the answer would vary based on how the GM wanted to run the game. I would probably let them buy spells they took the time to research, or those they found in other spellbooks, etc. Because any points that they spent growing the number of spell in their current sized MP are going to points they aren't spending on making it more powerful. So you could have low powered mages with a wide variety of spells, or high powered ones who only know a few.

You keep comparing things to D&D, so I'd just like to make a couple of observations. There is nothing balanced about D&D. At first level mages are largely useless, and fighters are neccesary to ensure party survival. At 20 level, the opposite is true. The only thing that keeps fighters useful at the higher levels is that they can protect the mage from attacks while they do their thing, and they have kewl magic items. People don't create mages because they like sucking at first level. They make them so they can (hopefully) make it to 20th level. People create fighters to be good now, with the understanding that eventually the mages and the clerics will pass them buy in relative usefulness. The description you made about the two 500 point characters, one that is really a 1500 pt mage and the other that is a fighter is pretty accurate. That's how it works in D&D. The only problem I see is that Hero demonstrates that discepancy. Finding a way to fix that is the problem. I don't think you can "fix" it in D&D. You obviously don't think that it is broken in D&D, and I'd tend to agree, if only because I understand going into a D&D game that that is the dynamic between wizards and fighters. In Hero (at least in theory), you don' t have to fix it. The points are balanced. I think most peoples problems in Hero with mages and balance is trying to make low powered mages as powerful (not "as useful") as fighters at lower points totals. The power frameworks make this possible. However, as you have rightly pointed out, at the high end of the sprectrum these frameworks shift the bablance of power in the favor of the mage. I have never seen a 500 pt Fantasy Hero character. But I would bet that if you built the mage without a power framework, and just built a 500 pt fighter, things would be pretty balanced between the two. Maybe you would need to do away with NCM? I'm not sure what all this means, but I think it is an interesting dicussion. I'll have to think about it some more and come back after lunch.

Re: HEEEEEEEELPPPPPPP! I think that Multipower is the way to go. However, you are going to have to exert control over how and when the multipower increases in power and when new spells can be added. Some sort of tiered system will probably work best, though the specifics will depend on the kind of game you are running. This is also a way to provide incentives to PCs to buy skills they might not otherwise feel are neccesary. Here is an example I just made up off the top of my head: 20 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 12-, (2) KS: Magic 12-, (3) Spell Research of 12-, (4) Have an INT of 13+ 30 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 14-, (2) KS: Magic 14-, (3) Spell Research of 14-, (4) Have an INT of 18+, (5) be at least a 125 point character, (6) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power. 40 Active Point Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 16-, (2) KS: Magic 16-, (3) Spell Research of 16-, (4) KS: Astrology 11- (5) Have an INT of 20+, (6) be at least a 150 point character, (7) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power. 50 Active Points Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 18-, (2) KS: Magic 18-, (3) Spell Research of 18-, (4) KS: Fey Lines of Dor`uun 11-, (5) KS: Astrology 13-, (6) Have an INT of 23+, (7) be at least a 175 point character, (8) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power. 60 Active Points Multipower: In order to aquire these spells, a mage must have (1) Magic skill role of 20-, (2) KS: Magic 20-, (3) Spell Research of 20-, (4) KS: Golgor Convergence Theory 11-, (5) KS: Fey Lines of Dor`uun 13-, (6) KS: Astrology 15-, (7) Have an INT of 25+, (8) be at least a 200 point character, (9) have the sanction of the Wizard Guild to cast spells of this power. How you set the parameters for advancement are up to you, and will largely depend on the type of game that you are trying to run. Setting expensive standards for advancement to the next "level" will slow mages down. Making then relatively cheap will speed them up. You just need to find a way to control and limit the PC mages multipower without making seem like Gm fiat. This set-up has always worked will for me for fighters, thieves, whatever. Giving a fighter a list of skills needed before he can go from +6 to +7 with his sword provides the GM the ability to effectively shape the charater, without seeming to be too intrusive. It does require a little work up front in creating a system of prerequisites, but I think it's worth it. And it's not like you come to GM in Hero and not be willing to do a little work creating your campaign anyway, right?

Yes, I have. Now I just need to find 3 other people...

Maybe there is technology that will destroy mechanical or electronic equipment and weaponry. An e-grenade, if you like. Two opposing forces come together and start shooting at each other. Invariable they end up hitting each other with e-grenades, which disables the blasters of the other side, so the two sides have to close to melee to continue the fight. There could be many different ways that these e-grenades work. Maybe it disrupts the battery of an energy rifle. For slug throwers, it could cause metal to fuse together, to jamm the internal workings or a gun, or even cause the propelent to explode in its casing. This would make carrying ammo for these weapons dangerous. The slug thrower having its propelent explode could answer a couple of your concerns. It would be a good reason to not carry too much ammo, because it could explode if you get hit with one of these grenades. That would limit the duration of fire fights. It would also give a good incentive to fire off all the ammo you could as quickly as you could, to get the ammo away from you. Just thinking out loud...

In the Ultimate fighting world, tapping out doesn't usually happen to escape from a painful hold. Those guys can handle pain. It happens because of the threat of severe damage to their bodies. Usually in the form of broken limbs. Once a fighter realizes that he is in a hold in which his opponent can break his arm, he will usually tap out. This doesn't happen because the hold itself hurts (though it might). It happens because the fighter realizes that he will most likely lose if his arm gets broken, so it's better to get out with his arm intact, to fight another day, than to tough it out and try to win this match with a broken arm (not likely). Hero doesn't specifically deal with broken limbs, unless you are playing with disabling and impairing wounds, so the only threat is usually that of inflicting body damage through a joint break. Even this however, would be enough to make a normal person tap out. Taking body is a big deal to an average person. But as James Bond once put it, "Don't find too many normal persons in this business, Q." All of that aside, I agree with the building consensus. the threat of or actual infliction of pain should not have a formula for getting opponents to tap out. Each character will have to decide if he would rather surrender than go on with the pain. If you want to force opponents to surrender, you should build a mentalist.

I think a lot of these should be handled just by taking the limitation: real weapon (-0). Particularly if it is supposed to be a "normal" flamethrower.

Just to add to my previous post, I was talking to a friend the other day who was telling me about some new weapon that was being designed that could fire pennies at half the speed of light using electro magnetics (or something, I had been drinking ) I think that a weapon like this would certainly be more destructive than any wimpy 16" gun, right? However, this much power would bring as many problems as it did advantages. That penny would punch though almost any substance on earth, and just keep going. The potential for accidental casualties and damage would be incredible. So a weapon like this would have limited applications, and couldn't be used in almost any war because it would have too much destructive power. It would become like a nuclear weapon, something that is threatened to be used, but almost never broken out. I guess if we were going to be fighting another alien race that we didn't mind exterminating, we'd use it, but almost never on ourselves. I'm justy rambling now, so I'm gonna shut up. As a final thought, how much damage would a penny traveling at half the speed of light do? Anyone?

To me, you've anwered your own question. TE spaceships were designed to fight other spaceships in space, not WWII battleships. There is no reason that they need to have more powerful weapons than said battleships. They would have weapons that were powerful enough to do the job they were designed to do, and not waste any more space, weight or resources than they had to. I don't know that we can improve sword technology much. We probably can't improve big gun tech much either. We have taken these techs to their upper limits of potential. Could we design a more accurate gun? Sure, but it won't necessarily do more damage than a 16" gun. WWII 16" guns could destroy anything on a modern battlefield. Here we are 60 years into the future and they still could destoy anything that we'd have to through at them. That's pretty good. We are doing a lot with missles now, because they are more accurate and have better ranges than big guns, not because they do more damage. Heck, we've designed missles that even do less damage, because we are trying to acheive things other than maximum detructive power (limit civilian casualties, surgical strikes, etc.). We may see lasers in the future, but I'm not so sure. It will be hard to make a laser gun that is much more effective than a modern rifle. Maybe lighter, with less needed ammo to carry (recharable battery packs?), but not neccesarily more destructive. What if we can design small missle like projectiles that can turn corners and seek out moving targets? That would beat a laser hands down on almost every battlefield. And even if we do design powerful laser guns, they will have drawbacks to match any advantages they might provide. I think it's entirely possible that 16" guns and future weapons may do similar damage. The future weapons will have other advantages that make them desirable over the lower tech ones, but I'm not sure that "damage levels" will neccesarily be much higher. And until we design some more effective defenses, they won't need to be.

Did they only take damage from the other brother, or were there benefits? Could they smell the same thing? Taste? Etc. That would make more sence as a concept.

One Fred for me. No more, no less.

I'm guessing that sometime before the 2 million years it will take Pioneer to get to the Tuarus constellation, we will either have passed it by with something faster or ceased to exist. As a result, I'm not too worried about what the aliens who find it are going to think about how we look naked.

NASA's 'Pioneer 10' Craft Falls Silent After 31 Years LOS ANGELES -- Pioneer 10, the first spacecraft to venture out of the solar system, has fallen silent after traveling billions of miles from Earth on a mission that has lasted nearly 31 years, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration said. What was apparently the spacecraft's last signal was received Jan. 22 by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory's Deep Space Network. At the time, Pioneer 10 was 7.6 billion miles from Earth; the signal, traveling at the speed of light, took 11 hours and 20 minutes to arrive. The signal and two previous signals were very faint. The Deep Space Network heard nothing from Pioneer 10 during a final attempt at contact on Feb. 7, NASA said Tuesday. No more attempts are planned. Pioneer 10 was launched March 2, 1972, on a 21-month mission. It became the first spacecraft to pass through the asteroid belt and the first to obtain close-up images of Jupiter. In 1983, it became the first manmade object to leave the solar system when it passed the orbit of distant Pluto. Although Pioneer 10's mission officially ended in 1997, scientists continued to track the TRW Inc.-built spacecraft as part of a study of communication technology for NASA's future Interstellar Probe mission. Pioneer 10 hasn't relayed telemetry data since April 27. "It was a workhorse that far exceeded its warranty, and I guess you could say we got our money's worth," said Larry Lasher, Pioneer 10 project manager at NASA's Ames Research Center. Pioneer 10 carries a gold plaque engraved with a message of goodwill and a map showing the Earth's location in the solar system. The spacecraft continues to coast toward the star Aldebaran in the constellation Taurus. It will take 2 million years to reach it. Copyright © 2003 Associated Press

I am concerned that a bad role using either of these powers would allow spells to hit the owner pretty hard. That doesn't seem particularly impressive to me. If I were going to build this for my campaign, I would use damage reduction. Anti-Magic Chainmail: 5 Armor (6 PD / 6 ED) (18 Active Points); Independent (-2), OIF (-1/2) (added to Secondary Value) 17 Magic Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% (60 Active Points); Independent (-2), OIF (-1/2) Now granted, making this be a "Magic" damage reduction might bother some purists, but there is an easy enough work around. Just buy the physical, mental and energy reductions, then limit them by "only vs. Magic." Building it with Damage Reduction would still be letting damage through, it just wouldn't ever be very much. If letting absolutely no damage leak through to the player is the intention, I'd recommend just piling on resistant defenses, only vs. magic, in combination with the supress. I wouldn't do it that way for my game, but I can see how that might work from the description you gave.

I think of these feats being like talents and powers. Just because your character can afford to pay for them, doesn't mean you can get them. All of them would require GM approval.