Dune HERO

[2gunkid]

I'm thinking about starting up a HERO game set in Frank Herbert's DUNE universe...and I'm playing with the idea of shields...any suggestions?

 

 

The shields are a force field that stops completely physical attacks of a certain velocity or slower, blow up and cause the las(er)-gun to blow up if shot by one, and can be rendered inoperable by a huge static charge. It also makes it harder to move and perceive things while its activated

 

I was thinking about defining it as:

 

Force Wall (Self Only, set shape, PD: 25, Not vs. "slow" attacks, not in static fields, 0 END, OIF: Shield Generator)

 

RKA (4d6, NND, Does Body, Trigger: Hit by Las Gun, Only to target las gun shooting it, Side Effect: [4d6 RKA, AoE: Radius] 1 charge, OIF: Shield Generator)

 

Change Environment: (-2" Running, -3 PER rolls, 1 hex area, 0 end, persistant, linked to Force Wall, OIF: Shield Generator)

 

The points don't really matter, I'm just trying to get a feel for game mechanics.

 

Thanks,

 

James.

[MarkusDark]

I have not read the books

 

But your writeup seems good. Question - when shields blow up, do they always take out the wearer? If not, I'd probably lower the side effect a bit. Also, are the Las guns Energy attacks? If so, the Shields are extremely dangerous to use as one shot from a Las would blow them, and anyone around them, up.

 

Don't forget the 0 range on the FW

 

I would probably use an end battery and have them cost at least something to maintain - maybe even something like 16 charges that last for one turn each.

 

In the movies, I remember hearing someone say that they don't normally use Shields on Dune as the sand quickly fouls/destroys the electronics.

 

When I created a "Dune Style" shield, I bought it as an ablative FF with some Damage Reduction thrown in. Of course, I probably missed the mark by a mile with it.

[2gunkid]

Thanks

 

Good Call on the "No Range" for the force wall.

 

Las guns are energy-based, so getting hit with a las-gun does take out the shield wearer...but now that you mention it, also the las-gun holder...so maybe that initial RKA should be area-of-effect as well...

 

This is why most of the fighting in the books are done with knives and swords and what-not, because Shield technology made las-gun use a mutual-annhilation deal.

 

Also, an active shield tends to attract and enrage near-by sandworms...but I was going to cover that in the Sandworm write-up.

 

Thanks for chipping in,

 

James.

[SuperPheemy]

I always thought that the interaction between the shield and a lasgun resluted in an explosive chain reaction. A BIG explosive chain reaction.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy

I always thought that the interaction between the shield and a lasgun resluted in an explosive chain reaction. A BIG explosive chain reaction.

 

I seem to remember this as well. At one point in the first book (I believe it was when the Sardukar were wiping out house Atredes) a massive explosion obliterates a division of solders. One character turns to another and asks if he has broken out the Atomics. The other replies that no, that would violate a bunch of treaties. He aimed a Lasgun at a Shield belt and set it on a timer.

 

In other words, a distant observer who knows about these things can confuse the effect of a lasgun hitting a shield with a medium scale ATOMIC detonation.

[AnotherSkip]

I think the greatest danger mentioned of the sheilds is that when an energy weapon hit's the sheild it

1 automatically destroys the wearer

2 automatically destroys the shooter, irregardless of range

the implication being given that the energy released is so huge that near atomic is right, basically the explosion needs to be large enough that it guarantees death for cities.

 

near atomic is good enough.

 

 

BTW what book is the LP on delay and sheild generator trick mentioned?

 

we were doing similar things in a Battletech campaign....

 

 

 

 

evil feinds that we were....

[AnotherSkip]

AFter having got my greedy little hands on Star Hero im Running full bore into a simple problem.

 

I thought there were Aliens in DUNE.

 

SH in _many_ places keeps on bringin up "there are no Aliens in DUNE".

 

1. the Spice Worms are certainly "monstrous" enough to qualify though because they are considered more animals/weapons they are certainly not "playable aliens" as we think of them (and technically they are native, the houses are Aliens invading from the POV of DUNE.

 

2. Are not the methane/hydrogen breathing Navigators aliens? Able to navigate "hyperspace" and more or less shortcut hard science distances and make a star spanning empire possible?

 

 

Sure, ill agree all of the stories are not about "Human vs Alien conflict" (except possibly in the case of #1 at most) having a much more difficult sociopolitical in species conflict. But to me there is a _huge_ difference between "there are no aliens" and "there are no aliens that are typically considered playable or have been major characters".

 

That is the thing i'm sticking on.

 

Of course I could be wrong (and remembering things incorrectly) not the first and not the last.....

[2gunkid]

Aliencs in Dune

 

The Navigators were mutated humans, not aliens...though the distinction is a little fuzzy. Their changes were a by-product of spice use.

 

The worms are technicaly aliens, I guess, depending on where you're standing, though.

 

 

James.

[Captain Obvious]

It's been a long long time since I read Dune, and I've never gotten around to the others in the series. I don't really remember the shield-laser dynamic, but I can say right now, if I was a strategist in that universe, I'd be building a bunch of cheap RC vehicles armed with lasers and controlled from orbit.

 

Those mentats aren't earning their keep if they haven't come up with this strategy by now....

[SuperPheemy]

Yeah, but for every mentat that comes up with the laser-armed RC vehicle, there's another working for the other side who will come up with the counterstrategy. Part of why the DUNE universe continually boils down to the human equation is that humans are the one variable left in the universe (and even then the Bene Gesserat are close to learning how to predict that variable).

 

The human factor becomes more important as a metaplot as the story continues through Children of Dune.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious

It's been a long long time since I read Dune, and I've never gotten around to the others in the series. I don't really remember the shield-laser dynamic, but I can say right now, if I was a strategist in that universe, I'd be building a bunch of cheap RC vehicles armed with lasers and controlled from orbit.

 

Those mentats aren't earning their keep if they haven't come up with this strategy by now....

 

I think everyone knows about that as a concept. You even get the idea it may happen on other worlds, but not on Dune.

 

One of the things about the books is that alot of the action in the early novels takes place on Dune (hence the name of the series) and the one thing you absolutely do not want to do is nuke the planet to glass. The entire economy of the known universe would collapse if somebody destroyed all the spice, and the spice can only be mined on Dune. In fact, at a couple of points power is siezed from the old regime just because a rebel is willing to do that and the old guard steps down rather than see it happen.

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

I think the greatest danger mentioned of the sheilds is that when an energy weapon hit's the sheild it

BTW what book is the LP on delay and sheild generator trick mentioned?

 

Turned out I was remembering it wrongly. In the first novel, when House Harkonnen was blitzing house Atredes, Duncan Idaho picks up Paul and Jessica out in the open desert after they escape the Harkonnens. A massive blast is seen and Paul (shocked) asks Duncan if he used the family Atomics. Dunan replys that no, he just noticed that their enemies were making liberal, almost flagrent use of Lasguns.

As they were retreating from their fortifications anyway, he set up a shield running on automatic in a place he knew they attack later. Duncan mentions something to the effect that if the Harkonens dont have strong lasgun discipline they deserve what they get.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally posted by Jhamin

and the one thing you absolutely do not want to do is nuke the planet to glass.

 

Isn't most of the human activity on the planet confined to a big outcrop of rock that sticks out above the sand? You could nuke that to glass if you wanted to, and the sandworms would go on their merry way making spice. Whatever was left after that (mostly spice harvesters and an ornithopter here and there) would just be a mop-up operation. Or, heck, leave them alone and wait for them to drag themselves in and beg for shelter.

 

Or maybe I just don't remember enough about the one book in the series to fully understand the logistics of this enterprise....

[Jhamin]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious

Isn't most of the human activity on the planet confined to a big outcrop of rock that sticks out above the sand? You could nuke that to glass if you wanted to, and the sandworms would go on their merry way making spice. Whatever was left after that (mostly spice harvesters and an ornithopter here and there) would just be a mop-up operation. Or, heck, leave them alone and wait for them to drag themselves in and beg for shelter.

 

At the time of the 1st novel, there were scattered but established settlements all over the northern hemisphere of the planet. You are thinking of the capital city which was built inside a natural geological formation call "the shield wall" which was a ring of mountains high enough to block sandstorms completely. It was the capital, but by no means the only large settlement. The southern hemisphere was indeed one vast desert with few "safe zones" to build cities in. The southern waste was considered uninhabitable due to Worm activity and was rarely even visited by spice miners. The fact that the native Fremen nomads wandered freely through the southern hemisphere and had large settlements there was a shock to the powers that be.

 

Conventional thinking was that if you did too much damage to the northern settlements in an attack you run the risk of not having anywhere safe when the next sandstorm hit or a worm wandered by. There was also mention of a ban on Atomics in warfare that was enforced by the Noble houses. I got the impression that if you violated that agreement you would invite the wrath of all the Nobles everywhere. Thus no nukes.

 

Even the Harkonen attack that wiped out House Atredes was seen as an unbelievable move because the cost of transporting that many troops ate up decades worth of profit from the spice trade. Atredes defences were built up with the assumption that nobody would ever invest that much in an attack that might fail. They didn't count on the emperor loaning his elite troops to house Harkonen, or being betrayed by one of their own. WIthout both the implication was they might have withstood the attack.

 

The universe of Dune wasn't short on weapons of mass destruction, but there were such technological and balance of power issues to deal with that most combat occured on the level of shielded, knife-weilding platoons. The scary thing about Paul, and later Lato II was that they had enough precognitian that they could weigh the pros and cons of tipping the balance of power in ways that were unavalible to anybody else.

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by Jhamin

You are thinking of the capital city which was built inside a natural geological formation call "the shield wall" which was a ring of mountains high enough to block sandstorms completely.

 

 

Well it _is_ the only "civilised" location scene in most of the movies.

I certainly don't blame people for thinking that way.

 

Heck it's been 10-20 years since i have read the books, some of the stuff is pretty fuzzy in there.....

[Prometheus]

The Dune universe operates on a few assumptions that allow for otherwise contrived storytelling.

 

The rules of Kanly prohibit and formalize feuds between houses. The Butlerian Jihad did away with computers and "thinking machines". Space travel (and control of outer space) is limited by the Guild's monopoly and the availability of spice. Shields and lasguns have a (literally) explosive reaction to one another. The list goes on...

 

Really, these are all stipulations that Herbert presented to his readers to allow him to tell a certain story. No computers means no calculators, PDA's, robots and such- or any extrapolation thereof. Radio controlled shield bombs, laser gun drones, and satellite controlled cruise missiles? Using them means breaking the ban, and attracting the attention of the Emperor and the other houses.

 

As a GM, think of this as no different than allowing or disallowing certain powers in a campaign. If you don't want the PCs running around immune to small arms fire, you don't let them have alot of resistant defense; Herbert did the same thing. Don't want to have to deal with extrapolating the processing power of a computer thousands of years in the future, or worried about PCs relying on their AI too much? Get rid of them all together. If you're thinking about running a Dune campaign (or even just one based on it) you may want to start by thinking out the stipulations you plan to enforce in your campaign world.

 

After that you can move on to the themes and plots and intrigues; the plans within plans...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Running a Dune campaign would require a few stipulations, I agree. Most of those involve the use/availability of weapons and the sorts of powers allowed. However, more than most a Dune campaign is going to have to be aware of both the political side and the mystical side of things. A few notes...

 

 

1. Lasguns (i.e. lasers) + Shields = 'low-scale' subatomic fusion.
   
2. Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother = complete body control.
   
3. Mentat = Human computer.
   
4. Guild Navigator = Psychic pilot, but NPCs.
   

 

In the last two books (Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune), since the Great Houses are effectively no more, the Great Compact is also no more. The Honored Matres nuke Arrakis/Dune/Rakis into slag, as they have a number of other planets; humanity is vastly beyond any single controlling force, such as the CHOAM board or the Great Houses.

 

Therefore, all your rules depend on when you want to run the campaign. Is it during Paul's years in the desert? During the jihad, when the Atreides/Fremen hordes swept across the Million Planets, converting everyone to Paul's religion? The rule of Paul's Imperium, before and after his blinding? Or maybe you're playing sometime during the God-Emperor's reign. Or after, during the Famine Times and the great Diaspora. Or during the 'invasion' of the Honored Matres.

 

Say when you're going to play, and I can help you with the broadline rules for it.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Dune HERO

 

I dub thee the Ghola Thread

 

I've been plowing through the latter Dune books (I keep complaining about the writing, but darnit, the universe is so frakking intriguing!)

 

I'd almost call a Holzman Shield a form of Desolid with vulnerabilities to Energy and slow moving projectiles. We've already discussed the atomic reaction between lasguns and shilds, I was considering how to model the "slow blade" effect in combat.

 

It doesn't quite seem like the attacks take an extra phase, or a delayed phase, since the strike comes quickly enough that the defender can't simply step back or to the side to avoid it.

 

It seems like an OCV penalty to make such a strike, which can be overcome with technique, either CSLs or a martial art like Ginaz Sword Technique. The trick would be howto restrict those Bonuses to attacks vs shield. After all the "Slow Blade" technique of Ginaz Sword Masters wouldn't be really effective in a fight without shields (I figure the technique has plenty of attacks for use in non-shield fighting as well).

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Dune HERO

 

I'd almost call a Holzman Shield a form of Desolid with vulnerabilities to Energy and slow moving projectiles. We've already discussed the atomic reaction between lasguns and shilds, I was considering how to model the "slow blade" effect in combat.

 

It doesn't quite seem like the attacks take an extra phase, or a delayed phase, since the strike comes quickly enough that the defender can't simply step back or to the side to avoid it.

 

It seems like an OCV penalty to make such a strike, which can be overcome with technique, either CSLs or a martial art like Ginaz Sword Technique. The trick would be howto restrict those Bonuses to attacks vs shield. After all the "Slow Blade" technique of Ginaz Sword Masters wouldn't be really effective in a fight without shields (I figure the technique has plenty of attacks for use in non-shield fighting as well).

 

I can see this going either way -- you have to slow down and thus be easier to hit, or else you're quick to defend, but your attacks have to 'take a penalty' due to the limited speed at which they can penetrate. I think I'd go with the OCV penalty / DCV bonus as part of the martial attack -- but I disagree that they can't be simply stepped away from as a defense. 'Stepping away' is one of the most common defenses against just such attacks. This is why using the knife after grabs or angling the target into a non-mobile position is such a common tactic.

 

As for the shield vs. non-shield fighting, remember that in Paul's first non-shielded fight against the Fremen (whose name I cannot remember), Paul was moving incompetently, as his muscles had been trained to penetrate a shield -- slow on the attack. After the second or third pass, the Fremen warriors were booing Paul, because they thought he was playing with his opponent.

 

I think you'd purchase the skills with limitations of 'only vs. shields' -- or HTH OCV, only versus shields, to imitate that.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Dune HERO

 

And at some point we really should start modelling Spice.

 

Without Spice Addiction, Melange..

 

Extends the human lifespan to around 400 years.

Focuses the mind to a high degree (Even giving Mentats that extra "boost" of mental acuity)

Acts as a stimulant without many of the negative side effects. Though from what I've read there is a "crash" period if one uses Melange as a stimulant too long. Sort of a precursor to Addiction...

 

Spice can also be overdosed which *can* give the user hallucinations, precognitive or postcongnitive visions, trigger latent mutant abilities, or uncontrolled telepathic powers.

 

Under Spice Addiction the Bene Gesserait's Telepathic powers increase exponentially. Guild Navigators can predict safe routes through folded space.

It seems that when someone falls into Spice Addiction the stimulant effects are lost (or the amount of spice required to provide the stimulant effect increases to a degree where Spice must be overdosed to have an effect).

 

And, of course, if that someone is a potential Kwizatz Hadderach, Spice can trigger the transformation into the Galaxy's Supreme Being.

 

There are other effects of course, I'll have to break out all my old books to start discovering them again.

[Curufea]

Re: Dune HERO

 

Has anyone managed to finish one of Brian Herbert's "Dune" books? I started one, but have great difficulty overcoming my crap avoidance systems and pre-established history paradoxes for the Dune setting.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Dune HERO

 

In my opinion, only the first Dune book was great. They went downhill from there, even Frank's work. But what keeps me coming back in spite of myself is the scope of the universe. It's such an alien vision of the future, and has influenced so much of contemporary science fiction.

 

But I know the S/F community well enough to understand that quality is a subjective term. I've enjoyed the Butlerian Jihad and the Machine Crusade immensely. I'll be picking up the Battle of Corrin soon. Anderson complements Brian Herbert well. I'm in the middle of Hunters of Dune, and it's strange... Nothing spectacular at this point. But it's an entertaining read.

 

The Dune Universe is really fun to play in, I can ignore the contradictions and paradoxes when "in" the setting. I wouldn't want to live there, though.

[Opal]

Re: Dune HERO

 

I actually ran a Dune setting (Deep Umbral realm) in Mage the Ascension, the shields were gauntlet-constructs and the 'slow' strike trick was a touch spirit effect.

 

The slow strike thing is a bit odd. I'd take it as being a matter of skill. You need to devote so many levels to making the right kind of attack to penetrate the shield. Thus, you don't have as many levels to devote to OCV (or whatever). The shield would presumably get a limitation for this.

 

The laser-shield interaction was a device to shift things to melee combat. You could enforce a bit of sanity on everyone and just say that lasers "don't work against shields" (a limitation on the lasers). The fact that they don't work against shields on a MAD basis notwithstanding.

 

As a general rule, I like no-range/self-only Force Walls, but, are shield-users able to interact with the environment (open doors and the like, for instance)? If so, FW doesn't work so well. A Force Field or Force Wall can still be overwhelmed by damage, of course, and again, I can't recall exactly how shields reacted to overwhelming force.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Dune HERO

 

In the Butlerian Jihad novels, it's mentioned several times that shields overheat if they reflect too much energy in too short of a time. I can't remember if this was mentioned in the Dune Novels. From what I've been able to gather, it seems like an immense amount of energy is required to overheat a shield. To the tune of dozens of automatic weapons blazing away for minutes. One example I recall was a ship in an asteroid field burned out it's shield because of the effects of tens of thousands of micrometeors coupled with about a dozen battleships pounding away at it. In addition, there is a mention that Shields are useless in the Desert because the constant blowing sands quickly overheat them.

 

In game terms, this limitation seems too small to be worth points, but should be kept in mind in those specific circumstances. The overheating problem is not sudden, so a shield user would have some warning as to when the shield was going to fail.

 

Finally, there were several instances of shields not really mattering. The atomic explosion of the Shield Wall overwhelmed the Holzman Shield. Being eaten by Shai-Hulud overcomes the shield. Being caught in an orbital bombardment. The Honored Matre's Obliterators glass everything, including shielded installations.

[SuperPheemy]

Re: Dune HERO

 

Instead of doing what I'm supposed to be doing, I've modeled my interpretation of the spice Melange..

 

Regular Use: (Total: 18 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Life Support (Immunity: All common terrestrial diseases; Longevity: 400 Years) (12 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Day which Never Recovers (-1 3/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Spice Addiction (1/2 D6 Cumulative Transform from non-addict to addict); -1) (Real Cost: 3) plus +2 PER with all Sense Groups (6 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Day which Never Recovers (-1 3/4), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Spice Addiction (1/2 D6 Cumulative Transformation: Non-addict to Addict); -1) (Real Cost: 2)[1 cc]2)

 

Overdose: (Total: 182 Active Cost, 18 Real Cost) Precognitive Clairsentience (Sight, Hearing, Touch And Smell/Taste Groups) (70 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour which Never Recovers (-2 1/4), No Conscious Control (-2), Activation Roll 8- (-2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Spice Addiction (2D6 Cumulative Transformation: Non-addict to Addict); -2), Precognition Only (-1) (Real Cost: 7) plus Retrocognitive Clairsentience (Sight, Touch, Smell/Taste And Hearing Groups) (70 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour which Never Recovers (-2 1/4), No Conscious Control (-2), Activation Roll 8- (-2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Spice Addiction (2D6 Cumulative Transformation: Non-addict to Addict); -2), Retrocognition Only (-1) (Real Cost: 7) plus Spatial Awareness (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Range (42 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Hour which Never Recovers (-2 1/4), No Conscious Control (-2), Activation Roll 8- (-2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Spice Addiction (2D6 Cumulative Transformation: Non-addict to Addict); -2) (Real Cost: 4)