Physical Gods or Spiritual Gods?

[Lord Liaden]

I lean toward mhd on that point. For some gods, worship was an important part of their "ecology," as it were. For example, in the Meso-American tradition the gods required blood sacrifice (not always or necessarily death) to sustain them, so they could in turn sustain the universe. But I never read about the Greek gods requiring worship. Greeks worshiped them because keeping them happy with you was seen as practical good sense.

[mhd]

Well, there was this one TOS episode about Apollo

 

Note that I was just adding my two bits about the matter of definition. In game settings, I'm actually a big fan of the "spiritual leeches" concept. Adds a gamist element to it, moves deities into something easily comprehensible by our modern, materialist, capitalist views. And it just works great if you've got a whole bunch of gods, maybe even competing (literally!) pantheons.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Well, there was this one TOS episode about Apollo

 

Note that I was just adding my two bits about the matter of definition. In game settings, I'm actually a big fan of the "spiritual leeches" concept. Adds a gamist element to it, moves deities into something easily comprehensible by our modern, materialist, capitalist views. And it just works great if you've got a whole bunch of gods, maybe even competing (literally!) pantheons.

But if the "spiritual leech" statement is true in a setting, then all gods are evil there. Even those who feign benevolence would be no better than tapeworms.

[Lord Liaden]

Are humans evil because we raise plants and animals for food? Maybe the plants and animals would say so if they could; but it's really just part of the natural order, things feeding off other things. Worship and sacrifice aren't the worst prices to pay to keep the gods happy, so they continue to make the sun shine, crops grow, and all that other good stuff.

 

Well, unless you're in the Aztec sacrifice queue. They fed their gods extremely generously.

[Alcamtar]

A spirit or being with divine power which garners worship from a group of adherents.

 

I think anything that is worshipped and acclaimed a god, is a god. it need not be divine or have any power. A monster god is an animal or creature that is worshipped. An idol is a god that is a statue. A good king is a man that is worshipped.

 

The power level is irrelevant. As long as the entity is able to siphon power from its followers worship to increase its own power, the term can apply.

I never liked this idea that a god somehow derives power from its worshippers. Popular idea these days but i wonder where it came from. Very humanist. I do think it kind of works for an idol or a monster god, as it might explain miracles from a thing logically unable to produce them. (See Dunsany's story about Chubu and Sheemish for a fun take.) But for a spirit or divinity it really makes them seem ungodlike, like a poser.

[Lord Liaden]

The concept of worship empowerment makes sense for something like the default official Hero Universe, in which the gods are defined as having been indirectly created by Man, forming out of their collective imagination and animated by the power of their collective belief. But if in your preferred setting the gods actually created Man, or even the universe, then having them be dependent on worshipers seems rather cart-before-the-horse.

[mhd]

But if the "spiritual leech" statement is true in a setting, then all gods are evil there. Even those who feign benevolence would be no better than tapeworms.

Well, a guy's gotta eat, right? In a RPG setting, quite often people get something out of this deal, too. Like being saved from obliteration from the hordes of Kaos. Or nifty "Summon Spectral Hammer" spells.

 

And whether that's true or not, one could always invoke the "I'm beyond your petty mortal ideas like 'good' and 'evil'!" trope. I mean, they did see those C-beams a-glitter and all that, and we're just monkeys with snazzy mi-partie clothes.

[NuSoardGraphite]

An omnipotent, or nearly so, deity does not require worship to be a god. It has enough mojo on its own to achieve godhood.

 

the idea that a god recieves power from its worshippers is rooted in the concept of sentient beings all being small fonts of power. They can use that power themselves (become a mage, or channel it into excellence in some talent) or they can give it to another through worship. It doesnt fit for all mythologies but is an excellent explanation as to why powerful entities would court worshippers beyond thr typical ego route.

 

I prefer this route for RPG play because this keeps the hierarchy of gods fluid and unpredictable. The god of war may have gained a lot of power during the wars of dominion when he was invoked thousands of times daily from warriors entering battle, but during peacetime, the god of Travels is more often prayed to and rises in prominence...until a pandemic hits and the goddess of Healing is invoked constantly until she gains enough power to eradicate the disease and the god of death rises due to the number of funeral rites being invoked.....

[Alcamtar]

There a notion in the ancient world, where if my city conquered your city then my god was more powerful than your god. So a god's power was measured by dominance and/or unconquerability, which is not necessarily the same as # if worshippers. It could be interpreted that the military and political success of men *determine* the gods power. Maybe the gods encourage warfare as a means of gaining power.

 

There was also the idea that gods could be stolen. If you steal someone's idol your have stolen their god, and now you will be aided by the god and they will not. It is like religion with an OIF. (Inaccessible because you need to set it up properly in a shrine and sacrifice to it, not something done in the heart of battle.)

[Steve]

It could also be that there is a level of godhood that is beyond the need for worship, and those at that level created everything else.

 

The children or deific creations of that being or beings do need worship to increase their power, and that may also be how they determine their relative strength.

[Mister E]

 

... when someone asks you if your a god, you say, "Yes!"

[Mister E]

... or else.

[Clonus]

But if the "spiritual leech" statement is true in a setting, then all gods are evil there. Even those who feign benevolence would be no better than tapeworms.

 

Tapeworms who say, healed your wounds, would be awesome.  Actually such an entity is the source of Forza's power from the most recent Image game thread in Champions

[drunkonduty]

Tapeworms who say, healed your wounds, would be awesome.  Actually such an entity is the source of Forza's power from the most recent Image game thread in Champions

 

They did the same for Fry in Futurama too.

[L. Marcus]

"What's that black cracker?"

 

*crunch* "A tomato."

[NuSoardGraphite]

But if the "spiritual leech" statement is true in a setting, then all gods are evil there. Even those who feign benevolence would be no better than tapeworms.

That doessnt necessarily make them evil. Its just power they are leeching. Its A tool. What they do with that power would be what determines their morality. Can a deity who uses their borrowed power to protect, heal and nurture its worshippers, to such a degree that they prosper and grownbe called evil?

[Nolgroth]

That doessnt necessarily make them evil. Its just power they are leeching. Its A tool. What they do with that power would be what determines their morality. Can a deity who uses their borrowed power to protect, heal and nurture its worshippers, to such a degree that they prosper and grownbe called evil?

 

So then, God is then basically the biggest redistributor of power? Takes from all and spreads the wealth? The ultimate in spiritual socialism?

 

Sorry to interrupt. I mostly find the idea more amusing than serious. What about those in the flock that die young? What about those that, for all the public to see, do not adhere to the basic tenets of the faith yet still seem to live long, prosperous lives? How does that affect the faith of the faithful and does the strength of one's faith feed into the huge spiritual battery that is the benevolent god?

[Lord Liaden]

So then, God is then basically the biggest redistributor of power? Takes from all and spreads the wealth? The ultimate in spiritual socialism?

 

Sorry to interrupt. I mostly find the idea more amusing than serious. What about those in the flock that die young? What about those that, for all the public to see, do not adhere to the basic tenets of the faith yet still seem to live long, prosperous lives? How does that affect the faith of the faithful and does the strength of one's faith feed into the huge spiritual battery that is the benevolent god?

 

Steve Long took an interesting tack on this concept for Hero Games's Turakian Age setting. The gods are sustained by worship, it's their spiritual meat and bread, as it were. But faith -- belief in that for which no evidence exists -- is their wine, their spice, adding savor to the meal. But how does a god inspire faith in his followers when his existence is undeniable, by manifestations and the powers he grants his priesthood? By not answering all his worshipers' questions, by allowing disputes in doctrine to stand without declaring which is correct. In the face of such contradictions, holding to the entirety of one's beliefs is an act of faith.

[Alcamtar]

If gods are spiritual leeches, what are they leeching? A leech takes what does not belong to them and thereby weakens the host. If the god does not take your spiritual power, what can you do with it? That is an important question to answer.

 

If your spiritual power is otherwise useless to you, then the leech-god is a symbiont, like gut bacteria. It converts something you cannot use into something useful and life giving. If it is stealing power that you could otherwise use, then it is a leech. Redistribution is only good if it is a voluntary donation, otherwise it is theft. Well, depending I guess on whether you consider Robin Hood a saint or a thief. I think the only thing that makes Robin Hood "noble" is that he stole from the greedy... what if he stole from the poor to give to other poor? What if he stole from mother Theresa to give to beggars?

 

If symbiont/leech gods take power from the living an convert it into useful products like healing spells, and if you consider this to be a good thing, then living a long life would be a religious duty. After all when you are dead you are no longer contributing to the spiritual power pool. Raise Dead spells are self serving as they maintain your power base. Suicide or slaying of the faithful would be a grave sin. Not taking care of yourself would be a sin. OTOH the god might not care if you are slave or free, healthy or unhealthy, as long as you are contributing maximum power for as long as possible. It would be a holy act to slay the followers of a god's enemy, as that weakens the enemy god.

[Clonus]

 

 

If symbiont/leech gods take power from the living an convert it into useful products like healing spells, and if you consider this to be a good thing, then living a long life would be a religious duty.

 

 

Life after death on the other hand is the gift that can keep on giving.   Also it's difficult to extract sincere worship from people against their will so it usually isn't really "forced redistribution".

 

Of course one of the interesting options in the Primal  Order is that one alternative to seeking worship is to merely take the souls of the dead and feed on them directly.  This is of course considerably less pleasant for the source.  It's a hell of a thing.  

[Steve]

In a fantasy setting, the idea of good gods being symbiotic with mortals and evil gods being predatory is interesting. Blood and souls are the drink and meat of evil powers, feasting on sacrifices instead of prayers of the faithful as the good gods do.

 

It gives an intriguing feel to fantasy deities to divide them up this way.

[NuSoardGraphite]

In a fantasy setting, the idea of good gods being symbiotic with mortals and evil gods being predatory is interesting. Blood and souls are the drink and meat of evil powers, feasting on sacrifices instead of prayers of the faithful as the good gods do.

 

It gives an intriguing feel to fantasy deities to divide them up this way.

This is essentially how i treat good vs evil deities in my campaign setting.

[NuSoardGraphite]

So then, God is then basically the biggest redistributor of power? Takes from all and spreads the wealth? The ultimate in spiritual socialism?

 

Sorry to interrupt. I mostly find the idea more amusing than serious. What about those in the flock that die young? What about those that, for all the public to see, do not adhere to the basic tenets of the faith yet still seem to live long, prosperous lives? How does that affect the faith of the faithful and does the strength of one's faith feed into the huge spiritual battery that is the benevolent god?

Those questions have plagued religion since the dawn of mankind.

[Nolgroth]

Those questions have plagued religion since the dawn of mankind.

 

Without a doubt.  I rather was more directing the question towards a mechanical/rpg line of thought. Still, your answer is completely valid.

[Nolgroth]

Steve Long took an interesting tack on this concept for Hero Games's Turakian Age setting. The gods are sustained by worship, it's their spiritual meat and bread, as it were. But faith -- belief in that for which no evidence exists -- is their wine, their spice, adding savor to the meal. But how does a god inspire faith in his followers when his existence is undeniable, by manifestations and the powers he grants his priesthood? By not answering all his worshipers' questions, by allowing disputes in doctrine to stand without declaring which is correct. In the face of such contradictions, holding to the entirety of one's beliefs is an act of faith.

 

What becomes of a god that has no faithful nor worshipers? Do they die? How many dead gods can fit at the end of a pin? Are they really hungry when somebody revives the worship (assuming they are merely dormant and not truly cast to oblivion)?