Thieve's Cant/Tongue: Do you use it or something like it?

[Ragitsu]

In your (presumably quasi-medieval) fantasy game, do the thieves/assassins/rogues/various lowlifes have their own language which is incomprehensible (or nearly so) to outsiders?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yes, and in fact I included some into my novel Old Habits!

 

But its not just for thieves, its called "Gutter" and pretty much all the street level criminals and lower class slum dwelling types (and Ratmen living in the sewers) speak it.  Its a form of slang of the established local language that is designed to sound odd and innocuous but deliver information right in front of ordinary people and law enforcement.

 

A sample:

 

   “A rum tover, what?”  I said.  “Me choover’s been atimbrel since I slove the stinkpipe”

   The rats sat down with me and nodded, getting some food out.  It was usually best not to watch too closely what Ratmen ate.  As near as I could figure, they couldn’t get sick, because often what they ate would kill me – or make me wish I was dead.  One of them was eating a beetle as big as a book headfirst with crunching and crackling so obvious I couldn’t completely ignore it. 

   We spoke in Gutter, a sort of street slang and criminal dialect filled with odd phrases and words we all grew up with but ordinary citizens found incomprehensible.  The bravo earlier hadn’t used Gutter; he was probably a mercenary and had to deal with upper classes.  What I’d said to them was this:

   What a day, my stomach has been rumbling since I left the sewer.

 

[eepjr24]

Unless a particular player wants to go down that path, I don't have anything as well defined as what Chris has above. But usually there are at least 2 street languages in addition to whatever passes for Common. And sometimes there is High Common as well, which is just a more formal, stilted version. The two I typically use are Street Slang and a hand signal language / password combination used by the underclass. Sometimes others have their own language or symbol set such as the beggars, ratters and sweepers in large cities. Or the folks in the sex trade, in more adult tending games.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah there's a merchant language as well, mostly hand signals and negotiation terms, but it can be used as a "lingua franca" between various cultures and peoples when traveling and in more wild areas as well.  Just trading topics and basic information (1 point max language skill) but enough to get the job done.

[Netzilla]

Different groups (like thieves and spies) may have their own codes and signals for clandestine communications.  However, these tend to be regional (or even organizational) so even if you know the signs, signals and speech of Lankhmar's criminals, you're not likely to understand it in Sanctuary.

[Kesedrith]

I tend to go the route of Netzilla.  There are codes and signals that different groups use, but the actual languages tend to be regional or racial.  The codes are more knowledge skills than actual languages.  I DO however use a trade speak that many in the world know, but as has been suggested by others, that's more a "language" of "How much for this?"

[Wardsman]

In your (presumably quasi-medieval) fantasy game, do the thieves/assassins/rogues/various lowlifes have their own language which is incomprehensible (or nearly so) to outsiders?

There is two inspirations for it. Cockney rhyming slang is the most well known.

But if wikipedia is to be believed it actually did exist in the real world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thieves%27_cant

 

http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Words04/usage/slang_cockney.html

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yes, there has always been a language that the criminal and lower classes used to talk.  Part slang, part trade language, and part "conceal what we're saying from the filth."

 

The Barbary Coast (old time San Francisco) even had one.

[Hadmar von Wieser]

And those jargons and argots all have the same problem and characteristic: They are constantly evolving. Because everything that becomes COMMON can be understood by guards and victims and spys and judges, too. So the inner circle keeps on exchanging words and mincing new expressions to confuse all but those that are with them constantly. Those you can trust.

We all know the same effect from youth slang. The moment everyone in your gang is calling it "cool" or "super", the teachers and parents start to call it that, too, so they can connect to you. But you don't want to be connected to them.   The younger ones desperately try to model themselves after you and use it - but when the kids call it "cool", it isn't cool anymore. And even worse: everyone is getting older, and when they finally turn into grown ups, they are traitors by definition. That's why swag already starts to loose its swag and why Gangnam Style isn't Gangnam anymore.

And now combine that with you not loosing your cool but loosing your head if the wrong persons understand you. Than you get an idea about why Thieves' Cant is not just different in Lankhmar and Sanctuary, but also different from Lankhmar's vocabulary 20 years ago.


 

[bigdamnhero]

Haven't used it in a game in decades. (Tho to be fair, I don't run a lot of fantasy.) I can handle the idea that thieves of a given guild might have certain code phrases, or even that the lower classes might speak a different dialect from the upper classes. But the idea that thieves in one country share a common language with thieves all over the world strains credibility.

Actually my current campaign doesn't even have a common tongue at all. It's set in 11th century Europe, at a time when Latin had declined in common usage, but hadn't yet become widely used among scholars. Arabic is the lingua franka in the Muslim world of course, but Europe is badly Balkanized linguistically. It's actually been a significant pain, and has really made me appreciate that particular trope!

[Christopher R Taylor]

But the idea that thieves in one country share a common language with thieves all over the world strains credibility.

 

The idea that all elves speak the same language all around the world is silly to me. Or humans, for that matter.  In places like Great Britain there are several languages spoken in an area the size of my home state of Oregon.  But in cultures and countries that interact regularly there will be a manner of trade language used for basic things (the original meaning and use of Lingua Franca).

[Lucius]

The idea that all elves speak the same language all around the world is silly to me. Or humans, for that matter.  In places like Great Britain there are several languages spoken in an area the size of my home state of Oregon.  But in cultures and countries that interact regularly there will be a manner of trade language used for basic things (the original meaning and use of Lingua Franca).

 

All Elves speaking the same language is not necessarily silly - depends on what Elves are like. If they are immortal (or close to it) and few in number for example....

 

 

Imagine a continent with, among others, Humans and Elves inhabiting. Then some explorer finds a totally uninhabited continent across the sea. Humans and Elves send colonists. Then the Sea Gods are angered for some reason and no one can cross the sea for a thousand years. A thousand years pass, and now a couple of ships cross the sea to return to the motherlands.

 

Human ship lands, human colonists and motherlanders start talking to each other and quickly realize that they can barely communicate beyond "Greetings!" and maybe "We come in peace." No one still speaks the same language their ancestors spoke a thousand years back and the languages they speak have had that long to change in different ways. Their customs and folkways are going to have drifted apart just as much as the language, too.

 

Elven ship lands and conversations break out like "Hey big brother, haven't seen you in centuries! How's mom and dad?" "They're as healthy as ever but they'll be glad to see you!" They're still speaking the same language - because they're still the same people! What is many generations for the Humans, is less than one generation for the Elves.

 

A species is likely to have one or a few cultures if:

They are long lived, so that no group of them is more than a few generations removed from any other group;

They are few in number;

They are confined to a single geographic area; or

They have a patron Deity, inherited racial memory, or other force that acts to restrict or direct cultural drift.

 

A species is UN-likely to have only one or a few cultures if:

They are short lived;

They are numerous;

They are widely scattered.

 

 

So if Goblins are fast breeding and short lived and found all over the world, they probably won't all speak the same language; unless they are all born "pre programmed" with a degree of linguistic and cultural knowledge, or have a pantheon that often speaks to them but only in the ancestral language of the first Goblins (and even in that case, it may be all Goblin priests have a common language but most other Goblins have a different tongue for every day use.)

 

And if Elves are immortal and mostly live in a single Enchanted Forest, it will make very little sense for them to have multiple langauges or cultures - unless it's assumed that inventing new languages or even entire new cultures is a hobby for the immortal folk. Which it could be, as they have the time for it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary and I have been over this ground before

[bigdamnhero]

The idea that all elves speak the same language all around the world is silly to me. Or humans, for that matter.

Same here. Just like the notion that all elves practice the exact same religion in the exact same way, while humans created three new religions yesterday before lunch. But...elves are supposed to be different, so maybe that's one of the ways they're different. So while I find it improbable, I can usually accept it as a genre thing.

 

But in cultures and countries that interact regularly there will be a manner of trade language used for basic things (the original meaning and use of Lingua Franca).

Yes, but it's worth noting that usually it's the language of the dominant trading power that gets adopted by others for trading purposes (ie - Latin during the Roman Empire, English during the British Empire). It's rarely (if ever?) a separate language created for that purpose.

 

Similarly, AFAIK most examples of thieves cants, et. al. are really sub-dialects of existing languages - or simply a few unique slang words - rather than separate languages.

 

Imagine a continent with, among others, Humans and Elves inhabiting. Then some explorer finds a totally uninhabited continent across the sea. Humans and Elves send colonists. Then the Sea Gods are angered for some reason and no one can cross the sea for a thousand years. A thousand years pass, and now a couple of ships cross the sea to return to the motherlands.

You don't need that sort of isolation to create new languages even among humans. As CT points out, just look at Britain, let alone Europe, which has always had a huge variety of different languages, often within a days ride of one another.

[Lucius]

You don't need that sort of isolation to create new languages even among humans. As CT points out, just look at Britain, let alone Europe, which has always had a huge variety of different languages, often within a days ride of one another.

True. My point is more that even WITH that kind of isolation you won't necessarily get a new language among Elves, because a span of time that is many many generations for Humans - long enough for tons of linguistic and cultural drift - is less than a generation for Elves, not long enough for much if any linguistic or cultural drift. The hypothetical Elven colonists would have a few new words for animals, plants, and phenomena of the new continent, but still remember all the old words for things in the old continent.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What would you call a palindromedary?

[Christopher R Taylor]

It's rarely (if ever?) a separate language created for that purpose.

 

That's actually how Lingua Franca came about; it was a polyglot of several languages mushed together and used for trade and interaction between different cultures around the Mediterranean.

 

As for elves, I agree you can come up with an argument about why they might all speak the same language, but that presupposes there's only one kind of homogeneous, identical elf out there, rather than groups of different elves from different parts of the world.

 

As for immortality equaling linguistic stagnation, again you could make some kind of argument for cultural reasons but even in one human's lifetime their language changes significantly, adding new words, abandoning old ones, changing the way people talk and interact. Going back to the Great Britain example, there are still parts of the country that can barely understand each other, even though they are technically all speaking English.  And those parts can be just a few miles apart in some cases.

[bigdamnhero]

That's actually how Lingua Franca came about; it was a polyglot of several languages mushed together and used for trade and interaction between different cultures around the Mediterranean.

I was under the impression Lingua Franca was mostly pidgin Italian with a bunch of words added from other languages? Either way, my point was they didn't develop a completely new language like Esperanto or something.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right, and that's how I envision my trade language, mostly elven (local language Perelen) with some other languages thrown in.  Since elves controlled the main gaming country for thousands of years until humans revolted and freed themselves, its still a pretty dominant culture and influence.

[DShomshak]

I've never used a Thieves' Cant in any Fantasy game. I even ignore it in D&D, where it's official. Local argots, sure; but no generalized Language of the Low-Lives.

 

"Common" is what people call the language everybody uses because it's the language of the dominant imperial and commercial power of the region. Common in the Azilian subcontinent is Low Zaavian. Common in the territories that used to be part of the Plenary Empire is Plenarite. The two Commons have little in common. But since PCs will not be going between the two regions, it doesn't matter.

 

For "racial" languages, I just roll my eyes and accept it as genre trope, because I am not willing to impose a greater burdern on players or greater complication on my games.

 

Maybe they exist because the humanoid races are all offshoots of humanity -- some of them provably of artificial creation, with languages genetically/mystically encoded into them.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Wardsman]

I was under the impression Lingua Franca was mostly pidgin Italian with a bunch of words added from other languages? Either way, my point was they didn't develop a completely new language like Esperanto or something.

Wasn't latin used as a linga franca ?

[Wardsman]

I've never used a Thieves' Cant in any Fantasy game. I even ignore it in D&D, where it's official. Local argots, sure; but no generalized Language of the Low-Lives.

 

"Common" is what people call the language everybody uses because it's the language of the dominant imperial and commercial power of the region. Common in the Azilian subcontinent is Low Zaavian. Common in the territories that used to be part of the Plenary Empire is Plenarite. The two Commons have little in common. But since PCs will not be going between the two regions, it doesn't matter.

 

For "racial" languages, I just roll my eyes and accept it as genre trope, because I am not willing to impose a greater burdern on players or greater complication on my games.

 

Maybe they exist because the humanoid races are all offshoots of humanity -- some of them provably of artificial creation, with languages genetically/mystically encoded into them.

 

Dean Shomshak

 If the city is a port city then the local lowlifes might use or have their own dialect/version of the trade pidgin used in the setting.

[bigdamnhero]

Wasn't latin used as a linga franca ?

During the Roman period, yes. During the middle ages, it was mainly the language of scholars, not traders. There have been a lot of languages used that way at different times in history.

 

But the actual term Lingua Franca comes from the "Italian Plus" used in the Med during the Renaissance.

[pinecone]

Well..."real world" cants, or palavers could vary by neighborhood ...But knowing your local "cant" should go a long way towards getting the trust of a differant group, and exchanging phrases builds fellowship, and helps you to learn the locals ways...

 

exp:So the local judges wear purple mantles, so when a job is discovered by the police it "Goes all purple" and you need to look for who informed...

[Trechriron10]

I like using them, and sprinkle in guild specific pass codes and idiosyncrasies so they can be exclusive if desired by the guild leader. This includes symbols like the modern-day "hobo code".

 

Gary Gygax's - The Canting Crew has some fun ideas within including an entire section on Jargon (like a dictionary of CANT!), if you can track down a copy.